Headstalls

[T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery]

What machine ,foot,and plate combination will allow you to sew the closest to buckles on headstalls. I think a new machine or nearly new is on order 

[Wizcrafts]

41 minutes ago, T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery said:

What machine ,foot,and plate combination will allow you to sew the closest to buckles on headstalls. I think a new machine or nearly new is on order 

Are you wanting to sew forward as far as possible towards the buckle and back up, or sew across the leather to close the buckle in?

If you want to sew up to the buckle and back, a single left toe, or double toe "harness foot set" on a 441 clone will do that. To also sew across the plane of the buckle, the left only toe foot will place the needle within 1/8 inch of the tightly folded leather.

Any throat plate you get with that machine will do. I use a Cowboy CB4500 for these kinds of jobs. I also use it to sew holsters, gun belts, knife and axe sheathes, bridles, saddle fleece relines, belts, et al. I have a good friend who uses a Cobra Class 4 to sew all of the commercial leather goods he sells, including holsters, rifle slings and guitar straps. These machines come stock with a narrow harness foot set.

You can also get very close to buckles if you have a Union Lockstitch or Campbell Lockstitch machine with a short toe foot.

[T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery]

The problem I'm having is when I sew up close to lije a cart buckle and you have to tilt the buckle up to get close there is no room for the buckle to raise 

[Wizcrafts]

What machine are you now using to sew these buckles? Can you show a pix of the buckle you have problems sewing, under the foot?

[T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery]

Using a pearson #6

[Wizcrafts]

14 hours ago, T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery said:

Using a pearson #6

So, you have a flat throat plate on it? Is there a raised plate (stirrup) available, or can one be fabbed?

[Wizcrafts]

My Union Lockstitch machines had raised throat plates that allowed me to get really close to buckles, even center bar types. You could probably have one made that is just long enough to let the needle and awl move the leather, then drop off fore and aft.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

It's the design of the machine you are using that makes it difficult to sew up close to a center bar buckle. The design is very similar to a Landis 1 and a Bauer, and is the main drawback to those machines.  I'm not aware of any plates available for these machines to allow easier sewing of that type of buckle.  Greg Gomersall is very knowledgeable on the Pearsons, and would know if there ever were raised plates available for them.  As Wiz mentioned, a Campbell/Randall type of machine (Landis 3 is very similar in design), or a Union Lock, Landis 16, makes sewing up to those buckles much easier.  Second would be the 441 type machines. Because the cylinder arm is flat on these machines, they are not quite as easy to sew the center bar buckles on as those previously mentioned. While raised plates are available for the 441's, you loose height capacity.  I nearly always sew that type of buckle in with a "fish" type of pattern; Start up as close to the buckle as you can, cross over diagonally and sew down the lap to a point, turn your work and sew back up, crossing over again to the opposite side when you get near the buckle.  It takes some practice to get proficient at it.  Never, ever sew straight across a strap on anything designed for equine use.  You basically create a "tear-line" for the strap under stress.  You can sew straight from and back up to the buckle, but won't be able to get as tight of a fit.  Loose hardware in the tack business equals sloppy work.  I put a wedge in at almost every piece of hardware when I'm building harness.  The tack industry has become flooded with budding "tack makers" since the Chinese clone machines became easily and cheaply available.  The sewing by some of these people is horrendous. . . they know absolutely nothing about basic construction principles.  Their goal is to produce flashy, blingy tack for the barrel racing crowd.  I guess if the stuff they are making lasts long enough for the fad to fall out of fashion, then it probably really doesn't matter.  I just can't bring myself to cut corners.

[JLD]

Hi Big Sioux could I see a picture of the "fish" sewing you mention please Sorry I am having a hard time with the visualisation.

What machine are you using to do this on as well.

Regards

Johanne

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, JLD said:

Hi Big Sioux could I see a picture of the "fish" sewing you mention please Sorry I am having a hard time with the visualisation.

What machine are you using to do this on as well.

Regards

Johanne

Sure I'll find something and get a pic.  The "fish" pattern is just my own term, I've never heard anyone call it that before.  I figured it would make it easier to visualize, but apparently, I failed. I've sewn them on a Randall, Union Lock and a 441 clone.  Randall would be my first choice. Besides of the fact that their design facilitates sewing close to the buckle, there has never been another machine that can lay down as pretty of a stitch. Landis 3 is a close second of the hook and awl machines. Union Locks can be a tough machine to get along with. They are made for high speed production, as opposed to a small shop that does many different kinds of work. But the design of the throat makes it easy to sew the center bar buckles.  Currently I have been using a 441 clone, only because for the past 6 years, until this last month, I have been seriously limited on space. I needed to use the space I had available for machines that were the most versatile. I do a moderate amount of synthetics sewing, and the hook and awl machines can't sew synthetics.  So I had the clone set up, and another heavy machine to specifically sew rounds and tugs (Landis One).  Before too much more time goes by, I will have all the machines I own set up and useable, without spending a half day moving stuff to get to them!

[Wizcrafts]

It just dawned on me that a Cowboy CB3500 or CB4500 with a stirrup plate would be a great combination for sewing close to center bar harness buckles. That plate is not only raised, it is also curved.

Here are pix of mine.

Note, that the feed dog must be removed to use this throat plate.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

12 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

It just dawned on me that a Cowboy CB3500 or CB4500 with a stirrup plate would be a great combination for sewing close to center bar harness buckles. That plate is not only raised, it is also curved.

 

Except for the fact that you lose thickness capacity and the feed dogs.

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Except for the fact that you lose thickness capacity and the feed dogs.

True. But, there is still at least 3/8 inch capacity left on top of the stirrup plate on a CB4500.

If you want to, mail me a sample of the strap you need to sew, that is giving you fits, and I will attempt to sew it on my CB4500, with the raised plate. I'll mail it back and take some pix of it being sewn. PM me for my address.

[Wizcrafts]

I just replied to the wrong poster! Doh!

T Moore, in Medicine Hat, that offer to sew a sample strap was meant for you.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

True. But, there is still at least 3/8 inch capacity left on top of the stirrup plate on a CB4500.

If you want to, mail me a sample of the strap you need to sew, that is giving you fits, and I will attempt to sew it on my CB4500, with the raised plate. I'll mail it back and take some pix of it being sewn. PM me for my address.

When making equine equipment 3/8" just isn't very much.  Think of it as this: would you buy a machine for making tack that only has 3/8" of an inch of height capacity?   It'll be enough for some things, but not near enough for most, and even when it works, you will be maxxing the machine out all the time.  You would find yourself thinning leather down to fit under the foot, in places you shouldn't be thinning leather down.  Not saying that the stirrup plate set-up won't work for some straps/ buckles, but it's nowhere near enough for a shop that specializes in tack.  Take that advice for what it cost ya.

Having said all that, the CB4500 will work to sew the cart buckles in w/out the stirrup plate.  Just not as handy as the hook and awl machines.  I've got the pic that I promised last night, just have to get it on here.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

20 hours ago, JLD said:

Hi Big Sioux could I see a picture of the "fish" sewing you mention please Sorry I am having a hard time with the visualisation.

What machine are you using to do this on as well.

Regards

Johanne

Here ya go, as you can see, the stitch pattern is in the shape of a crude line drawing of a fish:-).  And also, as you can see, the 441 type machines can leave pretty deep foot marks.  Just goes with the territory on that type of machine.

[Matt S]

On 1/25/2018 at 2:28 PM, Wizcrafts said:

So, you have a flat throat plate on it? Is there a raised plate (stirrup) available, or can one be fabbed?

I have seen pictures of raised plates for the #6, but I'm not aware of any in current production. The needle plate on a #6 is a very simple piece, I would imagine a machinist wouldn't have that much trouble fabbing one. I'm waiting til my tame chipwrangler gets back from his winter holiday to have him make me one.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

2 minutes ago, Matt S said:

I have seen pictures of raised plates for the #6, but I'm not aware of any in current production. The needle plate on a #6 is a very simple piece, I would imagine a machinist wouldn't have that much trouble fabbing one. I'm waiting til my tame chipwrangler gets back from his winter holiday to have him make me one.

Matt, does the #6 have no feed dogs?  I know that it is a needle feed machine, but I've never actually seen one in person.  If there are no feed dogs, then it would be very possible to make a raised plate that would work.  Actually, T Moore, if you can do that, I'd keep the #6 and try to make that work.  They are a highly coveted machine, and they don't make them anymore! 

[Wizcrafts]

I second the vote to keep the #6 and have a raised throat plate made. I wish I had kept my Union Lockstitch. The bottom side of the leather on a jump foot, needle or awl feed machine is much closer to hand sewing than any machine that uses alternating feet. This is mainly because an inside foot pushes hard on the leather along the stitch line and forces the bottom to take the shape of the feed dog hole or throat plate slot. A jump foot machine doesn't have an inside alternating foot, thus the marks around the holes are much less pronounced.

Did I mention that I wish I hadn't sold my ULS? LOL

[JLD]

Thank you for picture I get it now. Wha5 ma Hines did you use to sew tha5 on the stitches look good

Sorry should read what machine 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

2 hours ago, JLD said:

Thank you for picture I get it now. Wha5 ma Hines did you use to sew tha5 on the stitches look good

Sorry should read what machine 

I sewed it on my CB4500. I appreciate the compliment, and thank you, but I wish I could show you something that I sewed on my Randall.  You would understand why I prefer it.  Unfortunately, it had serious pre-existing conditions and I traded it back to the trader I bought it from, and haven't gotten another.  I do have a Landis 3, which is said to nearly rival the Randall in appearance of stitch. 

[T Moore Medicine Hat Saddlery]

The pearson is a great machine and I wouldNT sell it at all it is too good for everything else. I was just looking for another machine to add to the shop that would do this nice and clean 

[Matt S]

14 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Matt, does the #6 have no feed dogs?  I know that it is a needle feed machine, but I've never actually seen one in person.  If there are no feed dogs, then it would be very possible to make a raised plate that would work.

That's right, no feed dog. The standard plate is very simple -- a short strip of steel with chamfered  edges, a needle slot at both ends (different sizes) and a half round cut for a locking screw.

[Uwe]

The video below (starting around the 1:08 mark) is a little corny but shows a setup that looks promising for sewing thick leather extremely close to obstacles. I don't even know what subclass that Adler 205 style machine is, but that tall, skinny foot immediately behind the needle sure feeds that thick leather well and generally stays out of the way. The special throat plate also has cutouts that allow obstacles on the underside very close to the needle. I can see that combo working well with T-style buckles. Unfortunately, I have no idea where you can find such a machine, sorry.