Is Google is killing art?

[immiketoo]

Not too long ago, if you wanted to add art to leather, you had to draw it yourself.  Or find someone to do it for you.  Now, all you have to do is find something like with an easy search and voila!  Leather art.  I think its killing the creativity of a lot of folks, myself included.  If I see, or am asked to make another Molon Labe piece, I may just cry.  This isn't about copyright, so don't go there.  That is a shitty conversation every time.  Lets talk about creating art.  For your own work.  I WANT to, but every time I try, I am disappointed with my efforts.  I still try though, and perhaps one day I'll be successful enough at it to make it work.

How about you?

[Carson]

I agree with you and yes I am not very good myself YET!!! It takes practice. “The difference between the novice and the master is that the master has failed more than the novice has tried” -unknown

[Sheilajeanne]

Immekitoo, I belong to a FB page called Art of The Horse. I am constantly amazed at the quality of work posted by people on that page. One of the most common things you see  on that page other than artwork, are reference photos. Yes, even the superb artists on this page STILL need something to copy from.

I also know a couple in the States. The husband is a full-time artist, and the wife is both an artist and a writer. BOTH of them use models for their artwork. She wanted to put a crow on the cover art of one of her books, and had to import a museum specimen from England. He often has his wife dress up in period costumes for some of his artwork, so he can take photos to use as a reference for his work.  (He likes to do buccaneer and pirate art, and has been the artist for the Captain Morgan ads for many years.)

It's the same with leather work. IMO, 90% of what we do is in the execution of our craft. 10 leather workers can start out with the same design and same pattern, and produce 10 very different results, depending on their skill level. I have seen some eye-popping work from newbies to this craft, but inevitably when you ask about the person's background, you find out they have been in some other type of art/craft BEFORE picking up a swivel knife for the first time, so the artistic skills have carried over. 

No one picks up a paint brush or drawing pencil or a swivel knife and beveler for the first time and does a beautiful job worthy of being submitted to a juried show. There's a learning process involved. The design is just the beginning.

Before the internet, there were Al Stohlman's books, with their beautiful designs and pictures. These were even better than what you can find on the net: they gave step-by-step instructions for producing both Sheridan carving, and beautiful western scenes that contained all sort of figures. It was an art course in a book.

How many of us could follow his instructions and produce results that equaled his the first time around? Heh...are you laughing at yourself yet?

Maybe one day after I've done 10 or 20 or 30 Sheridan carvings, designed by someone else, I'll feel up to the task of creating my own. And maybe after I've done a dozen figure carvings, using Al's work, or a Craftaid template, I'll have the confidence to draw something of my own, and put it on leather. But we all have to start somewhere, and even the best artists started out copying a photo, a model, or someone else's work. The only difference is the net has made these things easier to find.

[immiketoo]

Interesting points, and I don't disagree with you on any of them.  I think that the reference thing is spot on, but they're still creating, not just using existing art.  Its why they sell those little posable figures to draw human forms.  My point is that most people don't even try to do art with reference material.

I'm 100 percent with you on the copy to learn and then do you own thing.  Especially in leather because of the physicality of it compared to drawing.  It contains multiple skill sets, and yes, those with art backgrounds excel at leatherwork in a short amount of time compared to the rest of us.

[JLSleather]

Both sides the fence.  I originally did craftaids, because i wanted to spend what time i had learning the CARVING, not the tracing and spacing.  Then I got a copy of "belts galore " and decided to make all of those except the ones that sucked   And while some people insist on something "new', I STILL get asked to make some of those belts from that book.

Money must be tight all over these days (?).  I get folks agree to $250 for a project, then want to add this, and that, and wunna those, and want it to still be $250.  I try to be flexible, but unless there's a royalty-free, public domain pic of that somewhere, that may just not happen

But I DO make my own designs sometimes, and sometimes share them for whoever wants to use them.  Even then, if you 'n' me ''n' 100 other guys are all making that now, how "custom" can it really be ?@!

[JLSleather]

Like these, which I quit doing rather than debate price or timing.

I thought the rope border was a nice touch to add in, but the USCG designed the rest of it the "art"!   Various "ratings" have been used on the front, and some have 'stuff' on teh back as well.

I don't make this for $250.  At $250, I feel like yer "stickin' it to me".  And those who suggest they can organize to buy 5 or 8 of them, pool their  money.. that sounds nice on the surface, but I tend to see that as "stickin' it to me" 5 or 8 times!

 

 

[Bob Blea]

I draw all my own floral designs these days and I'm even learning to draw Celtic knots, though more complex designs for things including traditional animals are a bit beyond my skill level at the moment.  I'm an example of what @Sheilajeannewas saying.  I had previous experience painting in oils and acrylics before starting with leather carving, and that previous skill definitely helps.  But I started off working from Stohlman designs and Craft Aids just like everyone else.

When I first tried painting in high school art class, after some basic lessons in shading and blending colors, our teacher had us pick a picture from a magazine (pre Internet days) and do our best to duplicate it on canvas.  We drew a grid across the picture to help us draw the picture on the canvas and then mixed and dabbed paint right on the picture to get the color shading right.  It was literally doing our best to make a color photo copy of the original picture (the goal was to try and make a realistic painting) but it was also a huge learning experience in how to paint in oils.  That's the way everyone has to begin, duplicating what you see either in a picture or a still life.

Even if you start off with a Stohlman pattern or a craft aid or some line art your downloaded from the Internet, you are bringing some part of yourself and your style to the piece.  At first, it's not much of yourself because you are still learning, but hopefully over time you develop your skills more and your own way of using the tools or producing effects that become your style.  I still look at the works of leather carvers and incorporate elements from their designs into my own.  It's how I grow and develop.  I do see a lot of leather items for sale that have some of the original Stohlman / Tandy designs on them with no improvements or their maker's own style.  They look dated and nothing makes them stand out from the crowd.  I'm driven to improve my designs because I don't want to just blend into that crowd.

[YinTx]

Agree on all points above.  I did a USAF wallet as a gift, then discovered that you have to have written PERMISSION from them to use their symbol on anything.  And it appears as though if you want to make a USMC or US Army etc. item, you have to have permission from each of them as well.  So, I won't be doing those, until I have time to fill out their forms etc.  This is one reason I tend to shy away from "borrowing" other folks designs.  If I have tooled someone else's design that I did not pay for, it is not for sale.  I might give it away or use it myself, but I won't sell it.  (Craftaids I bought, some designs are "free" from places like Leather Craft Library etc. - I think it is probably ok to sell items tooled from those patterns.)

As far as copying art- to learn carving - have to start somewhere.  As an individual that can't draw a stick figure very well, it wouldn't make sense for me to dive into a complex piece and expect anything good to happen.  However, I have my own leather patterns of things I make, and available patterns for tooling and such don't fit correctly.  Or there are things I don't like about other folks designs, as they don't quite do what I want them to do (not that they are bad, most of them are great, done by incredible artists and masters - after all what is the point of studying the works of those who are producing low quality goods? - but they just happen to be not the end result I am looking for).  This is forcing me to learn how to draw.   I have begun sketching things -  miserable, and in the garbage as fast as I can so no one sees em - but like my leather craft, I hope to begin improving over time to where I can sketch my own designs.  I've never had formal art training, so this is a difficult and frustrating process, even more so since it seems most others in my family are incredible artists - sculptors, painters, designers, builders.  As I mentioned in another thread, most of them aren't really believing I am making these leather things.  I am driven to make things that others do not, I want to make sure I am not a fab shop for copy Hermes bags.  I want to exceed their quality, not quantity.  I want my customers to be happy knowing they have a unique item.

This is not for every leather crafter.  A lot of business models are built on volume.  This means you have to keep it simple, and make a lot of the same items over and over.  Nothing wrong with this model either, a lot of major handbag manufacturers begin to have similar looking products.  As my wife says, they all just copy one another making what is most popular at the moment.

Art is not dead, you just have to look for it.  And pay appropriately.  I think true artists are just driven to go down a different path. 

my rambling $0.02.

YinTx

[immiketoo]

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Both sides the fence.  I originally did craftaids, because i wanted to spend what time i had learning the CARVING, not the tracing and spacing.  Then I got a copy of "belts galore " and decided to make all of those except the ones that sucked   And while some people insist on something "new', I STILL get asked to make some of those belts from that book.

Money must be tight all over these days (?).  I get folks agree to $250 for a project, then want to add this, and that, and wunna those, and want it to still be $250.  I try to be flexible, but unless there's a royalty-free, public domain pic of that somewhere, that may just not happen

But I DO make my own designs sometimes, and sometimes share them for whoever wants to use them.  Even then, if you 'n' me ''n' 100 other guys are all making that now, how "custom" can it really be ?@!

I stopped using "free" pics and pay for licensing on the images I use.  The Shutterstock license isn't prohibitively expensive, and it allows for sales and merchandise if you get the upgraded license.  Plus, I can then tell the copyright criers to stuff it.  I also contact individual artists for the rights to their drawings and usually their pretty good about agreeing.  In fact, most of them are shocked that we do it at all.  Nobody else does.  Sorry, I went copyright....

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Like these, which I quit doing rather than debate price or timing.

I thought the rope border was a nice touch to add in, but the USCG designed the rest of it the "art"!   Various "ratings" have been used on the front, and some have 'stuff' on teh back as well.

I don't make this for $250.  At $250, I feel like yer "stickin' it to me".  And those who suggest they can organize to buy 5 or 8 of them, pool their  money.. that sounds nice on the surface, but I tend to see that as "stickin' it to me" 5 or 8 times!

 

 

The amount of time involved in that alone is worth more than 250.  Not even counting materials and the skill it takes to make it.  Most people won't pay that kind of money, but when you find the ones that do, they are gold.  And they tell their friends.  No sense in working for a loss, or getting it stuck to you.  Took me a while to get past that.

2 hours ago, Bob Blea said:

I draw all my own floral designs these days and I'm even learning to draw Celtic knots, though more complex designs for things including traditional animals are a bit beyond my skill level at the moment.  I'm an example of what @Sheilajeannewas saying.  I had previous experience painting in oils and acrylics before starting with leather carving, and that previous skill definitely helps.  But I started off working from Stohlman designs and Craft Aids just like everyone else.

When I first tried painting in high school art class, after some basic lessons in shading and blending colors, our teacher had us pick a picture from a magazine (pre Internet days) and do our best to duplicate it on canvas.  We drew a grid across the picture to help us draw the picture on the canvas and then mixed and dabbed paint right on the picture to get the color shading right.  It was literally doing our best to make a color photo copy of the original picture (the goal was to try and make a realistic painting) but it was also a huge learning experience in how to paint in oils.  That's the way everyone has to begin, duplicating what you see either in a picture or a still life.

Even if you start off with a Stohlman pattern or a craft aid or some line art your downloaded from the Internet, you are bringing some part of yourself and your style to the piece.  At first, it's not much of yourself because you are still learning, but hopefully over time you develop your skills more and your own way of using the tools or producing effects that become your style.  I still look at the works of leather carvers and incorporate elements from their designs into my own.  It's how I grow and develop.  I do see a lot of leather items for sale that have some of the original Stohlman / Tandy designs on them with no improvements or their maker's own style.  They look dated and nothing makes them stand out from the crowd.  I'm driven to improve my designs because I don't want to just blend into that crowd.

Bob, you have worked really hard at your designs and it shows.  I like figure carving and I find it harder to draw than floral.  A person can make a floral mistake that only a flower would recognize.  EVERYONE sees what's wrong with a face, even if they can't put it into words.  And I agree with you 100% about things being made with craftaids or old Stohlman patterns looking dated and stale.  Al gave us all an incredible gift with his litany of work, but its so common now as to be passe.  I want to have an idea in my head that I can get down on paper and then leather.  I have the ideas, but they don't translate.  Keep it up!

 

[Bob Blea]

3 hours ago, immiketoo said:

 I like figure carving and I find it harder to draw than floral.  A person can make a floral mistake that only a flower would recognize.  EVERYONE sees what's wrong with a face, even if they can't put it into words.  

 

I hear you there!  I never could paint people that looked close to proportional.  I haven't been able to carve them either.  Human brains are so hardwired to recognize faces that any little oddity stands out to us.  Even Al Stohlman's carving of people look a bit creepy to me.  I stay away from carving people, but anything else is fair game.  It gives me great respect for Renaissance  artists who painted or carved human forms so spectacularly.  

[suzelle]

15 hours ago, Bob Blea said:

I hear you there!  I never could paint people that looked close to proportional.  I haven't been able to carve them either.  Human brains are so hardwired to recognize faces that any little oddity stands out to us.  Even Al Stohlman's carving of people look a bit creepy to me.  I stay away from carving people, but anything else is fair game.  It gives me great respect for Renaissance  artists who painted or carved human forms so spectacularly.  

Bob, Yes I agree with you there! The Renaissance artists were amazing! About replicating the human face (in whatever art form)... yes it does stand out when something is wrong with the way a face looks in an Art piece. Another thing that really stands out for me (when it's not right) are hands and feet. Also very challenging to master these subjects as well. But I guess the key is - keep at it! Just make a start! Practicing in leather would be quite expensive though! Probably best to do your mastering on paper first, til you get that right!  

[immiketoo]

18 minutes ago, suzelle said:

Bob, Yes I agree with you there! The Renaissance artists were amazing! About replicating the human face (in whatever art form)... yes it does stand out when something is wrong with the way a face looks in an Art piece. Another thing that really stands out for me (when it's not right) are hands and feet. Also very challenging to master these subjects as well. But I guess the key is - keep at it! Just make a start! Practicing in leather would be quite expensive though! Probably best to do your mastering on paper first, til you get that right!  

Faces are my main area of carving.  And then the whole human, and hands and feet are tough.  Proportions are key.  Its even harder when it's someone you know.  Ive seen baby portraits that are hideously disfigured, or faces that would scare clowns.  Hell, I've made a few of them.  One of these days I'll draw a face and try tooling it just for fun.

[Sheilajeanne]

18 minutes ago, immiketoo said:

Faces are my main area of carving.  And then the whole human, and hands and feet are tough.  Proportions are key.  Its even harder when it's someone you know.  Ive seen baby portraits that are hideously disfigured, or faces that would scare clowns.  Hell, I've made a few of them.  One of these days I'll draw a face and try tooling it just for fun.

LOL, immiketoo!  I know I have a bit of artistic talent. I used to do pencil sketches of my favourite movie, TV and rock stars when I was in my early teens. My mom was quite surprised because she had a sister who was a professional artist (studied at Ontario College of Art) so she KNEW the human face and figure were one of the hardest things to do well.

I really wish I'd kept it up. I also used to sketch horses a lot, but that didn't go anywhere either. I look at what people are doing on the Art of the Horse FB page and feel like I have NO talent whatsoever...

But, maybe, maybe I'll get the confidence to try it someday with my leather work...

Oh, yeah, and EXACTLY what Bob Blea said above! Even when using Craftaids and other designs from the Net or from Tandy, I often want to tinker with them and add my own personal touch. Maybe it's just resizing the design, or changing a couple of things to make it fit better. You learn by doing this, rather than slavishly copying the same design again and again.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sheilajeanne

[Sheilajeanne]

Here's a sketch I did when I was about 15. Bonus points if you can identify the TV show it's from. I never quite finished the jeep - it was hard to find a reference photo to get the details EXACTLY right! (Pre-internet days...lol!)

 

[Fowlingpiece]

Rat Patrol!

[immiketoo]

Ah...never saw that

 

[Sheilajeanne]

Yup, we have a winner! :D I had a huge crush on Chris George, and Gary Raymond certainly wasn't hard on the eyes, either...  

It only ran for 2 seasons, so a lot of people don't remember it.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sheilajeanne

[Tugadude]

I don't do carving but I do add some "artistic" design elements to my work sometimes.  I use google extensively for inspiration but I always frown upon direct copy.  I'm not saying it is wrong, but as a personal choice, I don't do it.

I think google or any search engine, yahoo, etc. are neither good nor bad.  Anything has the potential to be used for good or bad and the function of a search engine can inspire one to create art or cause them to become a copy artist.  It is up to the individual to choose which path to take.

[immiketoo]

6 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I don't do carving but I do add some "artistic" design elements to my work sometimes.  I use google extensively for inspiration but I always frown upon direct copy.  I'm not saying it is wrong, but as a personal choice, I don't do it.

I think google or any search engine, yahoo, etc. are neither good nor bad.  Anything has the potential to be used for good or bad and the function of a search engine can inspire one to create art or cause them to become a copy artist.  It is up to the individual to choose which path to take.

It's not meant to be taken literally as Google, as any search engine will produce the same results, but Google it is the most popular phrase when looking of info.

 

[ABHandmade]

It seems to me that photography and painting may well exist together. That is, creating your own art work in one case does not exclude the use of ready-made templates from the Internet in another. And vice versa.

PS. By the way, photography is also considered an art

Edited May 8, 2018 by ABHandmade

[rodneywt1180b]

Another fun topic. 

Is Google killing art?  I don't think so.  It may actually be helping in some ways. There is a world of inspiration at our fingertips.  I think for every person who is satisfied with copying someone else's work there is another person who sees that same work and is inspired to create their own.  I use the internet for design references all the time.but I don't make direct copies of what I see. 

[Stewart]

I am caught !!

   I did not inherit the skills  My Mom had. I do copy and paste a lot of images off Google.

Two  or three at a time to create a theme. Some times I printout two different scenes,

trace each one and combine them into one scene. Like now I am doing a boy fishing off a doc into a pond.

That's one image taken from a picture.   Cropped lily pads and enlarged from same picture and traced .

Combined on a 4 inch round and added my style of trees. So I am am a copiest and not an artist.

  So without Google images  I would not have the relaxing effect of working with leather or satisfy

the creative urge . I do not sell these but have given  out to people that go beyond there responsibilities.

  I am not a leather craftsman cause I make a mess of holsters. sheathes and  belts..etc..

         Than again I am not an artist.  I just have fun.

Joe S.

 

[Bob Blea]

2 hours ago, Stewart said:

I am caught !!

   I did not inherit the skills  My Mom had. I do copy and paste a lot of images off Google.

Two  or three at a time to create a theme. Some times I printout two different scenes,

trace each one and combine them into one scene. Like now I am doing a boy fishing off a doc into a pond.

That's one image taken from a picture.   Cropped lily pads and enlarged from same picture and traced .

Combined on a 4 inch round and added my style of trees. So I am am a copiest and not an artist.

  So without Google images  I would not have the relaxing effect of working with leather or satisfy

the creative urge . I do not sell these but have given  out to people that go beyond there responsibilities.

  I am not a leather craftsman cause I make a mess of holsters. sheathes and  belts..etc..

         Than again I am not an artist.  I just have fun.

Joe S.

 

Stewart there is nothing wrong with the way you are doing it.  The first functional thing I made in leather was a check book cover and I wanted a floral carving but didn't have anything in the books or craftaids I had at the time that fit the space or looked like what I wanted.  I 'adapted' a carving pattern for a small case by photocopying it and tracing parts of it till it fit the space.  I was able to put it together so it sort of worked together.  Before computers a lot of camera ready artwork for ads, flyers and posters was created this way.  If you don't have the ability to draw (and some people just don't, their brains aren't wired for that activity) the way you are handling it is a creative solution that creates an artwork that didn't exist before you came along.

[Handstitched]

G'Day,

What an interesting  subject. 

I have used  ' Mr Google' , as I call it , mainly  for logos, ideas   and inspiration etc.  and custom jobs for clients . But the majority of my patterns come from  Al Stohlman books from the 60's & 70's etc.  . I have done some free hand stuff as well, but only because Al Stohlman has inspired me to do my own . 

I couldn't draw to save my own life before I got into leather work. But these days, if I have an idea of my own  that pops into my head, its now almost instinct to grab a pen & paper and scribble the idea down , even on the closest bit of scrap paper I find,  ....before I forget what it was..... and kicking myself later. 

If I'm doing an Al Stohlman  carved pattern , I don't always copy that very pattern from his books. I often use a ' a bit of this pattern and a bit of that pattern ,like a flower from one book, a scroll,  from another,   perhaps a horse from yet another,    so that the end design is a combination of different patterns and  has come from 3,4 or five different books, but also adding & drawing  some of my own ideas as well. It  sometimes takes me hours for me to finally settle on a design too . 

But I don't think ' Mr Google' is  killing art...well, not mine anyway  . Google only plays a small part of my leather designs for me. 

HS