Firefighter Sewing machine

[Tc1388]

Hey everyone, I’m new to this forum & leatherworking as well. I’ve been teaching myself to hand tool leather work for helmet shields for guys in my department. I love creating pieces but drag feet when it comes to handstitching them. I’m looking to buy a used machine to get started before making any big financial commitment. I’m going through about 3/8”-1/2” and don’t know where to begin when looking for the right machine for like I said, a decent price. Any help is helpful.. thanks!

[Wizcrafts]

What materials will you be sewing on top and on the bottom layers? How much stress will there be on the sewn seams? What temperatures might they need to withstand?

The answers to these basic questions will help point you towards the type of sewing machine you will need to handle the thread and material.

Hint: The machine will obviously have to be able to sew into 1/2 inch of material. There are several that we deal with in leather work that sew well beyond 1/2 inch. But, you may need to use Kevlar or high temperature, flameproof Nomex thread for firefighter use. That's a whole nuther ball of wax.

[Tc1388]

So they’re made from cowhide tooling leather. There will be no stress on the seams, purely decorative identity tags. Thought about the thread before but I’ve been in some hot ones with my personal one and haven’t had any issues yet. Will def look into that type of thread once I get my hands on a machine. There’s a guy locally who is selling a Singer 211W155 for $450? There’s also a chandler industrial no model # for $800. Would buy either if I knew anything about these machines. Thanks for the help Wiz

[SilverForgeStudio]

The Wiz has spoken- but Ill toss my findings in as I am on the search as well for a machine for similar items. I do some work for a FD in my area and am a paid staffer- So I know where you are coming from but think ahead- think about 2 years down the road... IF you get into the hobby and it cranks into a business- you're gonna NEED to meet the specs for Nomex/Kevlar thread weights. Plus as an added bonus- lets say you hate it and want out- the machine has higher resale value as it WILL meet the need versus a startup machine you need to upgrade (Buy once- cry once).

What Im getting at is this- your product and will dictate the machine- consider thread weights, and look for a compound walking foot that will handle OVER what you are looking at... Why you ask? Because SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE that has one of your products is gonna tell someone else... and before you know it you are trying to sew a belt, gear tenders, belt keepers, holsters and stuff... Dont go "good enuff" on materials- Overproduce your product to duty-specs for everything so that: 

1. It doesn't come back for warranty work (You want a good name- back up your stuff)
2. It out performs the other guy who met the minimums (and you can back it up with endurance testing and showcase it if you have competition- Set the bar, dont just meet it)
3. Its how you would want to be treated if you were the customer

Look for a local sewing shop that does industrial/machines maintenance- in another thread there was an awesome point made- Cheap and free shipping is great but if you need maintenance there is NO support, backup and you will pay more to get it serviced than if you had bought from a local who knows the machine and can often do the work in house.

Be safe and as always- at peace- Hope your journey if fun and you get the right machine!

[Wizcrafts]

Besides needing to be a walking foot machine, the take-up lever itself needs to be beefier (is that even a word?) than an average upholstery class machine. This puts you into the heavy duty end of the walking foot spectrum. The reason has to do with the abrasive nature of these particular threads. With repeated use they can act like fine grit round Emory tape (more so the Kevlar thread).

You will need to focus on walking foot machines capable of sewing 1/2 inch out of the box. These include the Juki LU-1508NH and the Cowboy CB3200, as well as some Adler machines that can sew 1/2 inch with Nomex thread. Of the two, the Cowboy is less expensive.

[Tc1388]

Thank you guys both for the informative insight. Like I said I’m new to this and love doing it, taking pride in my work is of utmost importance, so durability is key. Do you guys have any dependable thread company references to just keep at hand stitching until I save enough for the cowboy? Again, thank you guys so much.

[Tc1388]

Also what thread thickness would be closest to standard waxed thread? Thanks again guys...

[Mark842]

I know The Thread exchange carries nomex and Kevlar thread. I prefer Superior threads for whatever my opinion is worth. They carry Kevlar but do not have Nomex. I'm guessing from what your saying you are making the helmet ID's, not sure what they are called. From the ones I have seen I would probably use size 207 to 300 thread.

[JerseyFirefighter]

I had been down this road as you are now. I asked the question.. had a slightly higher budget. In the end, I came to the conclusion unless you are versed in older sewing machines or very handy I would not bother looking into older machines hoping both that they work, and that they fit your needs (also future needs). I eventually decided that the larger investment (although painful at the time) would pay greater dividends... to which it did and still does to this day. If you were still cautious in dropping money on some of the larger machines on the market (cobra 4, cowboy 4500, ferdco 2000) that you should consider looking into the model below. (Cobra 3, Cowboy 3500 etc). They are slightly more affordable and I have only had a handful of times where I needed to come close to matching out my larger machine doing firefighter or K-9 stitching. 

As it was pleasantly beat into my head by people like Wiz... is that coming in looking to sew 12-16oz leather with an older machine is not for the timid and uneducated in matters of sewing machines. You'll doubt yourself now, but if you are getting a chance to save some money made on your projects, I would advise to save a bit longer and lay out for a newer machine that a lot of us in the fire service leather world tend to grab. Bonus points are there are plenty of us that frequently discuss issues or problems on the same types of projects where we have had issues in the past. I've got a lot of money invested in my shop, still to this day as large purchases go, my sewing machine will always be the #1 upgrade in terms of productivity. 

[DonInReno]

Unfortunately as others have said you’re sewing just over the max capabilities of the 211w155 and similar machines designed primarily for upholstery.   It’s probably worth it to measure your items since 3/8” is doable with upholstery machines.  

In the used market the choices for larger machines (Cowboy 3200 range) are slim, but if you’re patient there are some deals to be had, but there are very few $1,000 setups - anything less than $1,500 would be a good deal.  

[SilverForgeStudio]

39 minutes ago, Tc1388 said:

Also what thread thickness would be closest to standard waxed thread? Thanks again guys...

You can hand-sew with the Kevlar thread- you can even wax it if you desire- I also use thread exchnge as well as Miami Thread (out of NC no less- HA!)- I am still learning but the fellow I am quasi mentoring under hand sews with Nomex. 

Here is the thread exchange info on "waxed threads" it has sizes listed:

https://www.thethreadexchange.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=waxed-thread-information

Hope this helps

[Tc1388]

Hey JerseyFirefighter, do you happen to use special threads on our PPE. I know all of our standard gear must meet NFPA requirements, did really think through the shield tho haha.Thanks everyone for the knowledge and advice. 

[JerseyFirefighter]

Nope. Either Bonded Nylon or Poly thread. Certain aspects of NFPA such as turnouts require the use of fire resistant thread. After quite some searching through the standards, things like suspenders, shields, glove straps etc are considered accessories and do not fall under the scope of NFPA requirements. 

[Tc1388]

On 11/11/2018 at 10:52 AM, Wizcrafts said:

Besides needing to be a walking foot machine, the take-up lever itself needs to be beefier (is that even a word?) than an average upholstery class machine. This puts you into the heavy duty end of the walking foot spectrum. The reason has to do with the abrasive nature of these particular threads. With repeated use they can act like fine grit round Emory tape (more so the Kevlar thread).

You will need to focus on walking foot machines capable of sewing 1/2 inch out of the box. These include the Juki LU-1508NH and the Cowboy CB3200, as well as some Adler machines that can sew 1/2 inch with Nomex thread. Of the two, the Cowboy is less expensive.

Wizcrafts, I know you guys suggested staying away from old machines but a friend on my dept is selling a 1950 Barnard De Luxe for cheap, with manual. Would this suffice? And thanks again Jersey Firefighter

[brmax]

What kind of machine is this, or whats it designed for. Like google description. 

[Tc1388]

10 minutes ago, brmax said:

What kind of machine is this, or whats it designed for. Like google description. 

So I can find much research on it but here’s an image 

[R8R]

1 minute ago, Tc1388 said:

So I can find much research on it but here’s an image 

That is a sweet machine, if you are sewing a blouse. Nowhere near what you need for leather.

[Tc1388]

Just now, R8R said:

That is a sweet machine, if you are sewing a blouse. Nowhere near what you need for leather.

Hahahah well that just saved me $250

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Tc1388 said:

Hahahah well that just saved me $250

Perhaps we haven't fully defined the type of machine you are going to need. It will not be in a little self contained wooden box, nor on a fancy fold away table. It won't have a little foot pedal speed control that you put on the floor. It won't weight 35 pounds or less. It will be a full blown industrial sewing machine that either sits on a 20" x 48" industrial table, or a pedestal table, with steel legs and a big motor hanging under the table. The speed control will be via a very large foot pedal that pulls down on an arm emitting from the motor. The machine head will likely weigh well over 75 pounds. There will be a flex lamp and a thread stand with 2 or more platforms that hold thread cones. There will be a bobbin winder attachment, or one will be built into the machine head. The bobbins will probably be very large compared to domestic machine bobbins, with some holding many times as much thread. The head and table, assembled, will likely weigh over 150 pounds.

Here is just one machine that potentially fits your work description.

Here is a lesser machine that can still do the work you mentioned.

Read the specs on these machines, then compare them to this upholstery class machine that's good up to 3/8 inch.

Think these are expensive? Look at this fully qualified Adler sewing machine that Weaver Leather has for sale.

I hope this helps rather than hinders you.

[Tc1388]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

Perhaps we haven't fully defined the type of machine you are going to need. It will not be in a little self contained wooden box, nor on a fancy fold away table. It won't have a little foot pedal speed control that you put on the floor. It won't weight 35 pounds or less. It will be a full blown industrial sewing machine that either sits on a 20" x 48" industrial table, with steel legs and a big motor hanging under the table. The speed control will be via a very large foot pedal that pulls down on an arm emitting from the motor. The machine head will likely weigh well over 75 pounds. There will be a flex lamp and a thread stand with 2 or more platforms that hold thread cones. There will be a bobbin winder attachment, or one will be built into the machine head. The bobbins will probably be very large compared to domestic machine bobbins, with some holding many times as much thread. The head and table, assembled, will likely weigh over 150 pounds.

Here is just one machine that potentially fits your work description.

Here is a lesser machine that can still do the work you mentioned.

Read the specs on these machines, then compare them to this upholstery class machine that's good up to 3/8 inch.

Think these are expensive? Look at this fully qualified Adler sewing machine that Weaver Leather has for sale.

I hope this helps rather than hinders you.

Thanks Wiz, ya I’ve looked at all of those before I came on here just wanted to take the cheaper route with the investment. I will take you and Jerseys advice on saving for the better machine when the time comes and build up the callouses for now. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Tc1388

[R8R]

10 minutes ago, Tc1388 said:

Thanks Wiz, ya I’ve looked at all of those before I came on here just wanted to take the cheaper route with the investment. I will take you and Jerseys advice on saving for the better machine when the time comes and build up the callouses for now. 

In the meantime:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/bainbridge--sail-palm-right-hand--P002_068_003_501

 

[DonInReno]

If I were in your shoes and had to spend under $1,000 this is probably the route I’d try:

Of course this is an old ad, but these machines pop up at times for very little money.  They have agressive bottom feed only, but can handle thick thread and 1/2” of leather.  There was a new head on eBay last year for something like $450 and that included shipping.  

Every company calls their version something unique, but ga5-1 will turn up a dozen “different” brands. 

If you search and get a good deal on one you’ll be able to use it as many years as you’d like and get your money out of it - essentially free - can’t get any cheaper than that.

 

[Dwight]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:28 PM, Tc1388 said:

Hey everyone, I’m new to this forum & leatherworking as well. I’ve been teaching myself to hand tool leather work for helmet shields for guys in my department. I love creating pieces but drag feet when it comes to handstitching them. I’m looking to buy a used machine to get started before making any big financial commitment. I’m going through about 3/8”-1/2” and don’t know where to begin when looking for the right machine for like I said, a decent price. Any help is helpful.. thanks!

I had a Singer 155 for a while, . . . alongside the Tippmann Boss I already had.  The Singer stayed about 3 months, . . . got sold, . . . have never looked back.

If I were you, . . . the Tippmann Boss is the only machine I would look at.

This one is on Ebay:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tippmann-Boss-Sewing-Machine/302946884584?epid=99171804&hash=item46890a9be8:g:1fEAAOSwNUlb4HF1:rk:1:pf:0   It is used, but probably not a problem.

I've had mine for nearly 10 years, . . . it WILL SEW up to 3/4 inch of dry leather, . . . it allows you to put the stitch EXACTLY where you want it, . . . and cannot get into run away mode like an electric machine can.

I sew belts with it, . . . an average 50 inch long belt (for a 44 inch waist) takes about 20 minutes.  Sew one side, . . . grab a cup of coffee, . . . do the other.

It is an awesome machine, . . . their service is second to none in my book (I drive it up there if I have a problem, . . . Ben cleans off his work space and fixes it, . . . and I drive home).

Mostly I do holsters with it, . . . go to Dwights Gunleather on facebook and you can see some of the things I've produced with it.

May God bless,

Dwight