Singer 111W153 & table resto project

[Sugarkryptonite]

Got it back together today. Had to take the new wrong thread release slide that I was sent, cut it in half, and weld it to my old one to make a functional piece. Also had to add some weld to the tip of the thread release pin because it was worn down from so much use.

I'm now having an issue where part of my top thread is getting caught under the bobbin case. I can still sew fine (although top tension appears to be way too tight, even backed off all the way, bobbin tension seems to be good), until the end, when I lift the presser foot and try to pull my piece out. It's jammed in there, with 4 threads attached to the material and the machine, all a big mess. 

I had timed the machine and adjusted the bobbin tension a few weeks ago, but this is the first time I use the machine with a motor. Anyone have any ideas? Timing off? Need to check it again.

[DSloop]

Are you holding the threads taut about 6 inches back from the foot when you start sewing? Not banjo string tight, but snugly. These machines need that bit of help, to get the first stitch started.. Mine does, anyways.

[Sugarkryptonite]

15 hours ago, DSloop said:

Are you holding the threads taut about 6 inches back from the foot when you start sewing? Not banjo string tight, but snugly. These machines need that bit of help, to get the first stitch started.. Mine does, anyways.

Yup! I made sure to do that. Also I noticed that on the stitches, the thread is at a slight angle between each hole, maybe like 10-15 degrees. Probably unrelated but still a problem. Brand new needle.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[DSloop]

5 hours ago, Sugarkryptonite said:

Yup! I made sure to do that. Also I noticed that on the stitches, the thread is at a slight angle between each hole, maybe like 10-15 degrees. Probably unrelated but still a problem. Brand new needle.

One of mine did the angled stitch thing too. Try adjusting the upper thread tension and see if that helps. Start with almost none and put more tension on the thread as you slowly sew.

Edited January 22, 2019 by DSloop

[Sugarkryptonite]

2 hours ago, DSloop said:

One of mine did the angled stitch thing too. Try adjusting the upper thread tension and see if that helps. Start with almost none and put more tension on the thread as you slowly sew.

Thanks, I'll try that. Were you able to fix it on yours? I'm having a hell of a time finding a medium between the top and bottom tensions. Sewing through 2 layers of leather or vinyl seems to work pretty well, the lock is in the middle of the fabric (can't be seen anyway), but as soon as I try to sew one layer, I get loops. Adjusting does help but still not perfect. It seems extremely finicky, with even an 1/8 turn on the top tension wheel makes a crazy difference, is that normal? I'm using a #20 needle with 92 thread. Are we suppose to set the bobbin tension first, and then go from there adjusting the top? How much is normal on the top tension adjustment? Mine is almost backed off all the way.

Also here's more pictures of the thread getting caught in the bobbin area that I was talking about:

When this happens (almost every time sewing), after I'm done sewing, I lift the presser foot and attempt to pull my piece out, but its stuck in there, locked in with the top thread that has gotten pulled and caught in the bobbin area. After I cut them all  I can pull it out obviously. I can then get the small piece of top thread out of t he bobbin area by turning the machine backwards slightly until it gets loose and I can pull the short piece of thread out. Bobbin thread and needle thread are still loose during this whole ordeal, it's just that small piece that keeps getting stuck in there for some reason. I have tried putting different amounts of pressure on the threads at the back when starting with my hand, but no difference.

Also, where should this piece be in relation to the bobbin case? There is a slight adjustment and I'm not sure where to place it exactly.

 

Also I think an adjustment for the thread take up spring is in order as well. Right now I have it only slightly sprung, and it is parallel with the machine lengthwise if that makes any sense.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[DSloop]

Bobbin tension kinda stays the same unless you go from light to very heavy thread. Did you set it where the thread is resisting being pulled from the holder? It should not be loose, but offer good resistance.

Check ALL of the guides and little holes where the thread runs thru.If there is even a small groove for the thread to catch it will mess everything up. Get a good magnifying glass and check those out, along with the tension discs. I don't run the thread thru the small guide at the foot, it runs just fine with out going thru it.

I adjust the part in image 4 so it lets the thread thru freely, it don't require a lot of attention. (I think).

Remove the take up discs off as a pair, but leave the spring on the machine.

Wind the thread take up spring around clockwise 1 turn then put the discs back on. This can be a pain, make sure you don't trap the little spring with the discs, there is a shoulder back there for it .

Good luck.

[Sugarkryptonite]

2 hours ago, DSloop said:

Bobbin tension kinda stays the same unless you go from light to very heavy thread. Did you set it where the thread is resisting being pulled from the holder? It should not be loose, but offer good resistance.

Check ALL of the guides and little holes where the thread runs thru.If there is even a small groove for the thread to catch it will mess everything up. Get a good magnifying glass and check those out, along with the tension discs. I don't run the thread thru the small guide at the foot, it runs just fine with out going thru it.

I adjust the part in image 4 so it lets the thread thru freely, it don't require a lot of attention. (I think).

Remove the take up discs off as a pair, but leave the spring on the machine.

Wind the thread take up spring around clockwise 1 turn then put the discs back on. This can be a pain, make sure you don't trap the little spring with the discs, there is a shoulder back there for it .

Good luck.

Thanks. I had it like that, but then messed around with it a bit. I think I'll take it out again and set it. I had it so that if I hung the bobbin case from the thread vertically, if I jerked it vertically it would fall a slight amount and stop. Does that sound about right?

I'll double check all the points the thread runs through, also will recheck my timing tomorrow as I believe it had changed a bit since I reinstalled the thread tension release slider.

As for the thread take up spring, I did exactly as you mentioned, wound it around once clockwise until it seats on the little nub that sticks out to hold it. How much tension and at what angle do you set yours at? I'd say mine is at medium tension right now.

This is how I have it oriented: 

Thanks for all your help.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[DSloop]

tighten  the bobbin until it will not slide. these things like tension. thread take up spring is set at medium. How did you time it? there is a very good video on youtube about doing that. the author describes everything clearly. search for 111w155 setup/timing/maintenance..

How is the hook? nice and smooth and very pointy?

The point of the hook should be 1/16 of an inch above the needle eye as it starts back up. It should be moved as close as possible to the needle without touching it.( I think that's how it goes)

[Sugarkryptonite]

38 minutes ago, DSloop said:

tighten  the bobbin until it will not slide. these things like tension. thread take up spring is set at medium. How did you time it? there is a very good video on youtube about doing that. the author describes everything clearly. search for 111w155 setup/timing/maintenance..

How is the hook? nice and smooth and very pointy?

The point of the hook should be 1/16 of an inch above the needle eye as it starts back up. It should be moved as close as possible to the needle without touching it.( I think that's how it goes)

Thanks. Yes I followed Uwe's video.

I wouldn't say the hook is extremely pointy, but not extremely dull either, could probably do with a sharpening.

I actually found this thread which is quite interesting, and I believe to be the exact cause of the problem I'm having.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/70546-thread-gets-caught-under-hook-occasionally/

Also was just curious how you guys set your  thread tensions when you only have 1 color of thread? Right now I'm using 2 to be sure of the tensions and get it set up, but don't want to have to do that every time.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[DSloop]

You just learn by experience setting the tension, it don't take long.

That was an interesting video. I have two hooks, one a 35 dollar Chinese brand and a Simanco original. The Singer has more metal in the area where the thread was slipping off the hook in the video. It is about 3 mm longer there. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?

[Sugarkryptonite]

So I timed the machine again just to be sure, it's not so bad now. I realize now why I couldn't pull the material out half the time...it's because you need to turn the hand wheel until the needle thread has come off of the hook (if you stop while the thread is wrapped around the hook, you'll never get it out). 

The machine sews through leather quite well, 1 layer, 2, even 3 layers without adjusting the tensions, but man, I have some lighter upholstery type vinyl (still not THAT thin), and I just can't seem to get it to put the lock in the middle. It's extremely finnicky, sometimes it'll be fine, then you do another row of stitch and the loops will be showing (on one side or the other), it's never consistent compared to the leather. Is it just the thread that I'm using? Too thick? I've seen others on YouTube sew this stuff easily with even larger thread than I'm using...boo.

Like in this video, Alexander seems to be able to sew through many different types of materials without adjusting anything.

Although we don't see the locks of the stitches in the video, I'm guessing there aren't any...

Edited January 23, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[katit]

I am new as well, but already past that stage of worrying about tension Doesn't take much to develop this "adjust on a fly" skill. Stop worrying about knot on single layer of vinyl, it's not "real world" scenario. If material is VERY thin - chances are it's too big of a thread for it. I myself use 92 for everything. 2 layers of vinyl - no problem. One layer - no way it will hide knot. If you need to do 1 layer for decorative purpose just loosen top and let those be on a bottom.

Different color threads require different setup. Black is different from white. I have 92 from same manufacturer and they all different require slight tweak for different colors and materials. Bottom tension stays the same since it's always 92, I don't mess with it at all after figuring it out. You will be able to tell "by feel" even when you pull bottom thread out from machine.

Needle makes difference too. #20 with 92 will make bigger hole, knot can go up/down easier. #18 (what I use now) makes smaller hole in works better to my liking.

 

And for the next question of bottom stitch  prettiness: Nope, it will be ugly on some materials Experiment with needles, but out of all money I spent I settled on #18 LR needle.

Edited January 23, 2019 by katit

[Wizcrafts]

There is an animated gif on Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines' website, on the Videos page, showing how a lockstitch is formed. It may help clear up some confusion among newbies to lockstitch machines.

[Sugarkryptonite]

6 hours ago, katit said:

I am new as well, but already past that stage of worrying about tension Doesn't take much to develop this "adjust on a fly" skill. Stop worrying about knot on single layer of vinyl, it's not "real world" scenario. If material is VERY thin - chances are it's too big of a thread for it. I myself use 92 for everything. 2 layers of vinyl - no problem. One layer - no way it will hide knot. If you need to do 1 layer for decorative purpose just loosen top and let those be on a bottom.

Different color threads require different setup. Black is different from white. I have 92 from same manufacturer and they all different require slight tweak for different colors and materials. Bottom tension stays the same since it's always 92, I don't mess with it at all after figuring it out. You will be able to tell "by feel" even when you pull bottom thread out from machine.

Needle makes difference too. #20 with 92 will make bigger hole, knot can go up/down easier. #18 (what I use now) makes smaller hole in works better to my liking.

 

And for the next question of bottom stitch  prettiness: Nope, it will be ugly on some materials Experiment with needles, but out of all money I spent I settled on #18 LR needle.

Thank you Wiz and Katit. I saw the thread you made regarding tension issues...I can say you had a lot of the same questions as I do, and they were answered in a way by others that still left you and I both confused. 

Thanks for your tips about the vinyl. What do you mean when you say 1 layer is not a "real world" scenario? As in usually you will be sewing through 2 layers of something at least? I guess you're right. I have the machine sewing quite well through leather, 1, 2 layers quite easily. Even 2 layers of the vinyl I have it does OK (loops are still slightly visible on the bottom...but as you mentioned, thread might be too big, etc) And you're right maybe I should try a #19 or #18 needle, I have #20 right now (all I have, I just started).

Edited January 24, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[katit]

Why would you sew 1 layer? If you connecting 2 layers its a minimum. If you do single reinforced seam it’s 3 layers. But in my case I have scrim foam and it becomes even thicker. Plus some vinyls just different and don’t even need 92, 69 is good. 

Answers I got all good. I was more concerned with cosmetics and if you go with smaller needle/hole it will be different 

[Sugarkryptonite]

1 minute ago, katit said:

Why would you sew 1 layer? If you connecting 2 layers its a minimum. If you do single reinforced seam it’s 3 layers. But in my case I have scrim foam and it becomes even thicker. Plus some vinyls just different and don’t even need 92, 69 is good. 

Answers I got all good. I was more concerned with cosmetics and if you go with smaller needle/hole it will be different 

You're right! I was just testing sewing some different stuff. I guess no reason to do 1 layer in the real world. I noticed that when doing pleats in for example, motorcycle seats, they use scrim foam as a backer behind the vinyl. In your case, when you sew it yourself, does it work good, or still some problems? And yeah I was just going with 92 for the "look" of the bigger stitches/thread.

[katit]

Yes, no problems on my end. I played with it a lot, but now it’s all good. With real stuff I always dial in stitch and tension wit a scrap piece. Depending on number of layers, etc it needs tweaking.

just as example - stitch get shorter as thickness increases. You can’t just set and forget. Those are all adjustments you do on a fly.

my pfaff 1245 works perfectly. Now I’m refurbishing Seiko machine similar to yours, will see if I can get it all setup/adjusted

[Sugarkryptonite]

3 minutes ago, katit said:

Yes, no problems on my end. I played with it a lot, but now it’s all good. With real stuff I always dial in stitch and tension wit a scrap piece. Depending on number of layers, etc it needs tweaking.

just as example - stitch get shorter as thickness increases. You can’t just set and forget. Those are all adjustments you do on a fly.

my pfaff 1245 works perfectly. Now I’m refurbishing Seiko machine similar to yours, will see if I can get it all setup/adjusted

Nice! Thanks for your help. I saw your thread about your rebuild, not sure if you painted yet, but when I do powder coating we use plugs like these ones:

https://www.amazon.com/High-Temp-Silicone-Rubber-Tapered/dp/B00XYD2760/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1548300925&sr=8-4&keywords=tapered+silicone+plugs

They're made for plugging holes temporarily while painting or powder coating (or anything else really). Just a suggestion from my experience. I just guess it would suck to have to wait for them when you already have everything prepped for paint!

[DSloop]

Today I was playing with the machine I am keeping and slowed down to turn a kinda sharp corner and it skipped a stitch , then another.

Looked at the hook and it was NOT a Singer hook.  Good time for an experiment with hooks, so I used a fine stone on the point of the other used  hook which is a Singer, to make it nice and sharp pointed, as it was just slightly dull.( It would not make a pin prick feeling on the meaty part  of my hand, that's the only gauge I have)

Replaced it for the one in the machine which has no brand name on it, checked the timing, it had not changed so I turned it thru a few times by hand then let er rip.

I tried to make it skip stitches but it would not. Go fast then slow and turn or just slow or stop. It did not skip any more. The part of the hook where the thread slips off as seen in the video above, on a Singer hook, is just a little bit longer than on the no name hooks. That small difference in the hook shape seems to me as what causes the skipped stiches.

[Sugarkryptonite]

3 hours ago, DSloop said:

Today I was playing with the machine I am keeping and slowed down to turn a kinda sharp corner and it skipped a stitch , then another.

Looked at the hook and it was NOT a Singer hook.  Good time for an experiment with hooks, so I used a fine stone on the point of the other used  hook which is a Singer, to make it nice and sharp pointed, as it was just slightly dull.( It would not make a pin prick feeling on the meaty part  of my hand, that's the only gauge I have)

Replaced it for the one in the machine which has no brand name on it, checked the timing, it had not changed so I turned it thru a few times by hand then let er rip.

I tried to make it skip stitches but it would not. Go fast then slow and turn or just slow or stop. It did not skip any more. The part of the hook where the thread slips off as seen in the video above, on a Singer hook, is just a little bit longer than on the no name hooks. That small difference in the hook shape seems to me as what causes the skipped stiches.

Thanks. Did you use the fine stone on the top of the hook or the bottom curved portion?

Edited January 25, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[DSloop]

44 minutes ago, Sugarkryptonite said:

Thanks. Did you use the fine stone on the top of the hook or the bottom curved portion?

I tried to keep it evenly worked, so that the original shape was kept. Some 1600-2500 grit sand paper is needed to polish it also. The NEW generic hook was as pointed as a needle, tested by poking the web between thumb and first finger. A GOOD magnifying glass is really handy. A strong one, like from the eyepiece of a pair of binoculars. Is your hook a Simanco, or generic? Sharpening won't help too much if it's not Simanco., imho.

[Londonfog]

Ridiculous.

I hate you

Nicely done

 

I've got a massive Singer Longarm (It's hard to move even with two people) that needs a new table built, but I'm not going to have nearly as many toys to build it with.

[DSloop]

2 minutes ago, Londonfog said:

Ridiculous.

I hate you

Nicely done

 

I've got a massive Singer Longarm (It's hard to move even with two people) that needs a new table built, but I'm not going to have nearly as many toys to build it with.

Wat? Kinda lost here...…..

[Sugarkryptonite]

7 minutes ago, DSloop said:

I tried to keep it evenly worked, so that the original shape was kept. Some 1600-2500 grit sand paper is needed to polish it also. The NEW generic hook was as pointed as a needle, tested by poking the web between thumb and first finger. A GOOD magnifying glass is really handy. A strong one, like from the eyepiece of a pair of binoculars. Is your hook a Simanco, or generic? Sharpening won't help too much if it's not Simanco., imho.

4 minutes ago, DSloop said:

Wat? Kinda lost here...…..

Thanks! and I believe he was talking to me 

 

7 minutes ago, Londonfog said:

Ridiculous.

I hate you

Nicely done

 

I've got a massive Singer Longarm (It's hard to move even with two people) that needs a new table built, but I'm not going to have nearly as many toys to build it with.

Thanks my friend 

[DSloop]

post an image of the area of the hook, where the thread is shown and discussed in the video above. Is it a Simanco hook? just curious.tyvm

quote--(I was hoping someone could help me with adjusting the presser foot knee lift. Whenever I do it, the rod on the machine seems to want to twist, and then all of a sudden it "lets go", and makes a spring type noise. From the videos I've watched, the action is suppose to be smooth. Also, could someone explain how to adjust the spring that is on the rod itself with the set screw? Not sure where to set it exactly.)

The end of the lifting rod under the machine needs a smooth rounded surface, like a small wheel, or in my case a small heim joint that I repurposed.

I just slid the end over the lifting rod, with a thin piece of foam rubber wrapped around the rod to prevent it from falling off. You could thread the rod if it was the right size, mine was not. The round surface will provide a better smoother action where it touches the metal pad  when you use the knee lift.

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by DSloop