Long shot...Siruba machines?

[trash treasure]

Hi again - I hope the moderators tolerate all this, as it really has nothing to do with leather sewing.......

That part in your little video is called a "looper", and I think it's set too close to the needles - It should just barely touch the right hand needle, and maybe clear the left one by 0.2mm or so - There are really 3 adjustments for this part - FRONT & BACK, HEIGHT (On the Kansai, the point should be about 1.5mm above the LEFT needle eye, when it's at the needle center), and the looper ORBIT,  BUT I'm not going there on that one, as I really don't have a clue about the orbit adjustment on a Siruba, and describing the Kansai adjustments might lead you far astray - I may have done so already .

And, good luck fixing your leak :~)

[Sugarkryptonite]

2 hours ago, trash treasure said:

Hi again - I hope the moderators tolerate all this, as it really has nothing to do with leather sewing.......

That part in your little video is called a "looper", and I think it's set too close to the needles - It should just barely touch the right hand needle, and maybe clear the left one by 0.2mm or so - There are really 3 adjustments for this part - FRONT & BACK, HEIGHT (On the Kansai, the point should be about 1.5mm above the LEFT needle eye, when it's at the needle center), and the looper ORBIT,  BUT I'm not going there on that one, as I really don't have a clue about the orbit adjustment on a Siruba, and describing the Kansai adjustments might lead you far astray - I may have done so already .

And, good luck fixing your leak :~)

Thank you. I really wish I could find a proper manual for this thing...

Also really hope the mods leave it up, otherwise I don't know where else to go, don't know of any other sites with the expertise people have here.

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, trash treasure said:

Hi again - I hope the moderators tolerate all this, as it really has nothing to do with leather sewing.......

No problem. I don't know where else one would go to discuss those machines.

[trash treasure]

Thank You, Wiz !

[Sugarkryptonite]

9 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

No problem. I don't know where else one would go to discuss those machines.

Thanks Wiz. Much appreciated. 

Knock on wood, but I think I got the oil leak figured out (so far so good). I took it apart this morning and didn't see anything wrong with any seals, etc. Then it occurred to me that maybe the float was broken, and I believe it is...I tried putting it in a bowl of water to see if it would move up and it doesn't on its own very well...maybe it has a leak in it or something. I ended up cleaning everything & putting it back together, after I measured the correct amount of oil that would be needed in the pan to be lower than the gasket, while still being about 0.5" above the oil pump, so there is plenty of lubrication (if anyone needs this information in the future for this machine, that amount was around 850ml). I also managed to get a replacement oil filter today so put that in as well. 

I believe what happened was yesterday I filled the machine up with oil, and because the float wasn't working, I ended up putting a whole pint in, while there was still some in the oil pan to begin with, but I didn't know how much. Not knowing myself how much oil the machine actually takes (again, not written in the manual), I figured I would just keep filling it until the float started to move, which it never did...but then oil started leaking everywhere. When I took the pan off today to inspect it, I noticed there is a notch in the oil pan underneath the gasket (factory made for sure). I don't quite understand the function...maybe a vent/overflow...or if oil is leaking from the machine on the outside, it will end up back in the pan? I'm not quite sure, anyway I took some pictures of everything to show everyone here who is interested what these machines look like inside. But this is definitely why they say to drain the machine before transport, because the oil will absolutely come out of the small notch and go past the gasket, leaking all over the place.

1) On another note, trash treasure I believe I have gotten the upper spreader in place correctly, but the lower is still confusing me a bit. It is touching the left & right needles (right more than the left), but if I try adjusting it so that it touches them less, then when it goes around to the other side of the needles on its other side of stroke, it will end up touching them on that side! Sort of a catch 22. I'm not sure where to proceed from here.

In your above post you said "on the Kansai, the point should be about 1.5mm above the LEFT needle eye, when it's at the needle center". Could you explain what "point" you are talking about exactly?  Also what did you mean by "when its at the needle center"?

2) Also was hoping you could just verify my threading of the lower looper thread in the rotating thread take up mechanism (only had time to thread one of them, geez I wouldn't want to rethread 5 threads on this thing very often). I just threaded it right through the the hole in the right side, through the slot, and back through the hole on the other side. I noticed there are also holes in the rotating assembly, but I wasn't sure if the thread was suppose to go through there? I was recording with one hand and turning the wheel with the other, so I couldn't put tension on the thread with my 3rd hand 

3) What's the difference between the 3 holes at the top of the tension assembly, and where am I suppose to put the threads?

4) On the upper spreader, does the thread just sit in that sharp notch that we had talked about before? What holds it in there?

Oh and a video of the gear oil pump, just for fun

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

OK -

Nothing really holds the thread in the spreader - The point is shaped that way, so the spreader can pick up the thread and push it across the stitch on each pass. The thread is not actually, permanently held in the spreader.

It's possible the deal with the looper is that the orbit may or may not be set up correctly - It should pass very close to the needles both front and back, but I don't think it should deflect them that much.  The "orbit" describes the actual path the point of the looper takes around the needles in it's travel - It's sort of a oval-shaped path, and the orientation and timing of this path should be adjustable, with an eccentric timing crank, inside the machine - It should have match marks, that are shifted a tiny amount, forward or back, to change this timing.............. The thing is, that I can't tell you where it is on your Siruba - Probably in the upper arm, but more than that, I don't know - Sorry

The "point" of the looper is just the forward-most point of the thing, and the "needle center" is the center line of the needle shank - I don't know how else to describe it............. But, as I said, those numbers (and ALL the numbers I've quoted) are for the Kansai WX series, so beware, YMMV.

I think you have it threaded correctly, and the extra holes in the plate above the tensions may just be there so you can have the option of using them for certain thread types, or just to have a place to tie off different colors, so they'd be handy to change, or ...........?    I don't think you'd use more than one hole of each set, normally.

I wish I could help more, but I'm not a factory mechanic, and can only reference the relatively few machines I've worked on - There was a guy on here that IS a professional factory mechanic, with a lot of experience with many machine types, but he hasn't posted for a while now.   I'm just afraid of leading you in the wrong direction, so PLEASE just be sure that any adjustments you make are SMALL ones, and check every time by turning the machine over by hand, to see what is happening, before putting power to it.

[Wizcrafts]

I'll see if I can get our member, @gottaknow to read this topic. He is a machine mechanic in a major West coast sewing factory and works with all types of industrial sewing machines.

[Sugarkryptonite]

15 hours ago, trash treasure said:

OK -

Nothing really holds the thread in the spreader - The point is shaped that way, so the spreader can pick up the thread and push it across the stitch on each pass. The thread is not actually, permanently held in the spreader.

It's possible the deal with the looper is that the orbit may or may not be set up correctly - It should pass very close to the needles both front and back, but I don't think it should deflect them that much.  The "orbit" describes the actual path the point of the looper takes around the needles in it's travel - It's sort of a oval-shaped path, and the orientation and timing of this path should be adjustable, with an eccentric timing crank, inside the machine - It should have match marks, that are shifted a tiny amount, forward or back, to change this timing.............. The thing is, that I can't tell you where it is on your Siruba - Probably in the upper arm, but more than that, I don't know - Sorry

The "point" of the looper is just the forward-most point of the thing, and the "needle center" is the center line of the needle shank - I don't know how else to describe it............. But, as I said, those numbers (and ALL the numbers I've quoted) are for the Kansai WX series, so beware, YMMV.

I think you have it threaded correctly, and the extra holes in the plate above the tensions may just be there so you can have the option of using them for certain thread types, or just to have a place to tie off different colors, so they'd be handy to change, or ...........?    I don't think you'd use more than one hole of each set, normally.

I wish I could help more, but I'm not a factory mechanic, and can only reference the relatively few machines I've worked on - There was a guy on here that IS a professional factory mechanic, with a lot of experience with many machine types, but he hasn't posted for a while now.   I'm just afraid of leading you in the wrong direction, so PLEASE just be sure that any adjustments you make are SMALL ones, and check every time by turning the machine over by hand, to see what is happening, before putting power to it.

Thanks trash. I threaded the entire machine tonight and it seemed to work. The upper spreader would not grab the thread properly, so I took that thread out just to test the machine. Not sure why...need to investigate more. Having a hell of a time adjusting the tensions, though. I rechecked all the threading of the machine and it looks good, it stitches well, just the tensions are not great. The needle threads seem to have loops in them, but if I tighten them up slightly, the material starts to create a ridge on the left or right side of the needle thread path. The lower looper thread is almost at the least amount of tension possible.

Where did you learn to set the tensions properly? Was there a guide or pictogram you used?

Another question, in this video here, they are able to continue stitching off the garment, stitches keep being formed perfectly...I tried doing that with mine and all the threads got cut and bunched up. Is there something special about that machine? Can you do that with your machine as well?

11 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I'll see if I can get our member, @gottaknow to read this topic. He is a machine mechanic in a major West coast sewing factory and works with all types of industrial sewing machines.

Thanks again, Wiz.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

I really do hope someone with more knowledge than I, can weigh in on this - I feel like I'm getting a little out of my depth here - Thanks, Wiz.

The spreader could be a couple different issues - Are you actually placing the thread in the spreader before you start ?  You have to do that, as it often won't pick it up the first time, without a little help. It could also be the spreader being a little out of time.  Also, it looks like the machine still has a lot of lint in places - You should really blow it out with the air, pull it out with your tweezers, etc - Try and get it clean as possible.

On the tensions, the best advice I can give is to start with all tensions CLEAN and working properly, set them to a minimum tension to start with, and thread each one with a DIFFERENT COLOR thread, and then practice and experiment, to see what each tension does.

The machine SHOULD be able to sew off the sample, like in the video, if it's set up right - Our Kansai does it perfectly.   That itself could be affected by tension - I attached a couple photos of the stitch we get from the Kansai - Keep in mind, that it took some adjustment and tweaking, and experimentation to get there     -       Patience, Grasshopper .............

 

[Sugarkryptonite]

1 hour ago, trash treasure said:

I really do hope someone with more knowledge than I, can weigh in on this - I feel like I'm getting a little out of my depth here - Thanks, Wiz.

The spreader could be a couple different issues - Are you actually placing the thread in the spreader before you start ?  You have to do that, as it often won't pick it up the first time, without a little help. It could also be the spreader being a little out of time.  Also, it looks like the machine still has a lot of lint in places - You should really blow it out with the air, pull it out with your tweezers, etc - Try and get it clean as possible.

On the tensions, the best advice I can give is to start with all tensions CLEAN and working properly, set them to a minimum tension to start with, and thread each one with a DIFFERENT COLOR thread, and then practice and experiment, to see what each tension does.

The machine SHOULD be able to sew off the sample, like in the video, if it's set up right - Our Kansai does it perfectly.   That itself could be affected by tension - I attached a couple photos of the stitch we get from the Kansai - Keep in mind, that it took some adjustment and tweaking, and experimentation to get there     -       Patience, Grasshopper .............

 

Perfect thanks so much. I'll try more tonight. Hard to tell from the pictures since the threads are all the same color, but the needle threads don't have any small loops in them, is that correct?

[trash treasure]

What I showed is close to a perfect stitch with one of these machines - The threads should lay flat across the stitch, without pulling the sides together, and with no loops outside the outer stitch lines - That's what you should aim for.    

Like I suggested, set it up with different colors, to see what each tension does - And, BTW, make sure you're using overlock-type thread - These machines don't like to sew with regular twist thread - It doesn't need to be expensive stuff - The cheap "Maxi-Lock" brand works fine.

[Sugarkryptonite]

Hi again. I contacted Siruba with the machine serial # and model, and they sent me service manual pages, not sure if it's for my machine or not 100%, but it seems like it could be. I spent the evening tweaking all the small settings to match what was in the manual they sent me...the machine seems to work well...but only going slowly. If you try to go faster, it will start to skip stitches. Hard to tell what it is, but it looks like the spreader thread. I'm pretty sure I have the spreader set up almost perfectly, with it catching the thread every time, and moving to the left of the left needle the perfect amount (or maybe not...? Could be causing it).

The problem I see is that the manual states 5.0-5.5mm to the left of the left needle at it's furthest travel. If I set it like that, then when it moves back to the right, I need to adjust the spreader thread guide to be close in line with the spreader notch, but if I adjust the spreader thread guide to be above the notch when it's at its furthest right point, the spreader thread guide will hit the machine foot, so it literally cannot move to the left any more...I verified the spreader "travel", which is 17mm roughly, like they state in the manual. Pictured in orange below is where it contacts the foot when I try to move it further to the left.

Not sure to be honest. Also, in regards to the top spreader thread, Mine seems to be tight on one side, and looped on the other, crappy diagram to follow. Any ideas on that?

Do you have a second tension disc above the spreader thread guide for the spreader thread? It's a small one on mine, not sure how to adjust it exactly...or what its function is (pictured in red)

Edited May 7, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[Sugarkryptonite]

Wish this site didn't remove the "edit" button after so much time...anyway, I have an update. I messed around with the spreader adjustments a tiny bit more and I think it's better now. This is the best I could get the stitches. Hopefully you can help trash treasure or anyone else who knows something about coverstitch machines.

Top: 

Bottom:

Edited May 7, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

Hi again -

Your stitch "looks" like there might not be enough tension on the spreader thread - The little tension unit is very similar to the one on the Kansai, and the the thread absolutely needs to feed through it , but with just a relatively light tension - Is that how you have it ?  In fact, the Kansai unit does not even adjust, the way yours does, just a fixed screw holding the discs - At any rate, the tension there should be light

The spreader thread should lay flat, with the back-and-forth runs lying next to each other, not being rolled over by the middle needle thread (maybe the center needle tension is also a bit tight ?), so be patient, and double check everything.

Are you using the same size thread for all 5 threads ? Hard to tell from your macro photos, but they need to be the same, for most uses - I believe you can set these machines up to use different threads for certain effects, but you shouldn't worry about that at this point.

One more thing - For starting out, you might check that the differential feed adjustment is set to "neutral" - Get it to sew reliably like that, before adjusting it for different fabrics - It's there to control seam stretch. If it's set way out, one way or the other, it might affect the sewing speed capability.

Also - On the spreader adjustments - Is there a spreader TIMING adjustment on your Siruba ? - There is on the Kansai, but it's an internal one, and you access it from inside the arm cover - Match marks on an eccentric, that you shift one way or the other. If someone in the past has messed with that, it could really frustrate you, trying to get it right with the external adjustments.  So see if your manual covers that.  If you do find the adjustment off, set it to the original factory setting, and then you'll have to go BACK, and re-set all the external adjustments again .

Aren't these machines FUN ?  Just endless hours of entertainment ................

Edited May 7, 2019 by trash treasure

[Sugarkryptonite]

On 5/7/2019 at 7:52 AM, trash treasure said:

Hi again -

Your stitch "looks" like there might not be enough tension on the spreader thread - The little tension unit is very similar to the one on the Kansai, and the the thread absolutely needs to feed through it , but with just a relatively light tension - Is that how you have it ?  In fact, the Kansai unit does not even adjust, the way yours does, just a fixed screw holding the discs - At any rate, the tension there should be light

The spreader thread should lay flat, with the back-and-forth runs lying next to each other, not being rolled over by the middle needle thread (maybe the center needle tension is also a bit tight ?), so be patient, and double check everything.

Are you using the same size thread for all 5 threads ? Hard to tell from your macro photos, but they need to be the same, for most uses - I believe you can set these machines up to use different threads for certain effects, but you shouldn't worry about that at this point.

One more thing - For starting out, you might check that the differential feed adjustment is set to "neutral" - Get it to sew reliably like that, before adjusting it for different fabrics - It's there to control seam stretch. If it's set way out, one way or the other, it might affect the sewing speed capability.

Also - On the spreader adjustments - Is there a spreader TIMING adjustment on your Siruba ? - There is on the Kansai, but it's an internal one, and you access it from inside the arm cover - Match marks on an eccentric, that you shift one way or the other. If someone in the past has messed with that, it could really frustrate you, trying to get it right with the external adjustments.  So see if your manual covers that.  If you do find the adjustment off, set it to the original factory setting, and then you'll have to go BACK, and re-set all the external adjustments again .

Aren't these machines FUN ?  Just endless hours of entertainment ................

Thanks for your help, once again. Yes I have the thread going through the small "tension" unit.

Threads all seem to be the same size, the numbers on the spools seem to match, hard to tell as I did not buy them, they came with my overlocker machine. 

I'm not quite sure I understand the differential feed numbers on the machine; the settings go from 0-4. I'm guessing that that might be the ratio between the front and back feed dogs, for exmaple 1:0, 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, but for some reason, "neutral" where the feed dogs move at a similar speed, seems to be in the "2" position...

I was able to get the spreader thread to lay nicely, similar to yours, but the backside is a different story...sometimes loops on the needle threads, sometimes not (threading is correct, I triple and quadruple checked it), I was able to get a decent stitch like yours, but it took A LOT of fiddling, is that normal? I've seen videos online of a guy using a machine, and just throwing in different thickness fabric, stretch, not stretch, and the machine stitches perfectly every time. For some reason my right needle thread will sometimes make loops half way through stitches, and sometimes not, tension unrelated, not sure why...threading seems correct in all the proper holes, no hangups anywhere...tried different threads, same problem.

I will have to see about the spreader timing adjustment. I don't think the person who owned the machine ever used the spreader at all, as it was in a small case along with the set screw, but I could be wrong. Also, as the spreader is moving backwards, from left to right, it seems to catch very slightly on the needle threads and creates a small pinging noise as if you're stringing a guitar string when it's tight, if you know what I mean. Is that normal?

For example I tried on a piece of supplex (stretch type fabric a lot of athletic wear is made from), and then fabric would pucker along the length of the stitches, wihch leads me to believe the needle threads were too tight, so I backed them off, but then get loops on the back side,  tried adjusting the looper thread tighter, but the adjustment on the looper and spreader are very slight...at one point I even had the tension all the way tight, but backed it off because I didn't want the thread to break, and even then it wasn't helping very much. Is that a point where differential feed must be used?

Also, what is your routine for adjusting the machine? Is it looper, then spreader, then 3 needle threads? They don't say in the manual at all what should be adjusted first.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[dikman]

What a crazy looking stitch!

I think I'll stick to my lockstitch (and saddlestitch).

[trash treasure]

Hi, again -

The spreader hitting the needle thread ( I assume the right needle?) on the back stroke doesn't sound right, and especially plucking it like a guitar string - How tight do you have the needle tensions set? at any rate, I think the spreader should miss the threads, as it moves left to right.

Have you checked the needle bar height? When you buy a machine like this, you have to assume it's passed through a number of hands, some of whom may have poked around in it's innards, with little understanding of what they were doing - You need to check everything...........

The puckering you experienced is most likely a differential issue - Puckering ACROSS the stitch, look at tension, puckering ALONG the stitch, look at differential adjustment - We use the machine mostly for stretch knits (spandex) . Supplex (Taslan), is a nylon woven - Very different fabric, with nowhere near the stretch of spandex - The differential adjustment will be thus be quite different. Experiment, and be willing to adjust.

When I go through the adjustments on an unfamiliar machine, I usually do them in the order they're printed in the manual, unless I know something particular about it.    I'll be honest with you, we paid more than 3 times the price of your Siruba, for the Kansai we have, but the price and condition was not the only reasons why I chose that machine - It was that I was able to get a complete adjusters manual for the exact machine, that was the deciding factor - In fact, I had the manual in hand before we even got the machine - That alone was so important to me, that I would have passed on the Kansai, if I couldn't have that resource........ This should tell you something.

And, yeah, dikman, it's a crazy stitch, and a crazy machine - The engineers that figured out how to do it must also have been crazy, or maybe, they just were driven to promote the production of tight women's leggings, and stretchy swimsuits, for some reason - Go figure

[Sugarkryptonite]

13 hours ago, trash treasure said:

Hi, again -

The spreader hitting the needle thread ( I assume the right needle?) on the back stroke doesn't sound right, and especially plucking it like a guitar string - How tight do you have the needle tensions set? at any rate, I think the spreader should miss the threads, as it moves left to right.

Have you checked the needle bar height? When you buy a machine like this, you have to assume it's passed through a number of hands, some of whom may have poked around in it's innards, with little understanding of what they were doing - You need to check everything...........

The puckering you experienced is most likely a differential issue - Puckering ACROSS the stitch, look at tension, puckering ALONG the stitch, look at differential adjustment - We use the machine mostly for stretch knits (spandex) . Supplex (Taslan), is a nylon woven - Very different fabric, with nowhere near the stretch of spandex - The differential adjustment will be thus be quite different. Experiment, and be willing to adjust.

When I go through the adjustments on an unfamiliar machine, I usually do them in the order they're printed in the manual, unless I know something particular about it.    I'll be honest with you, we paid more than 3 times the price of your Siruba, for the Kansai we have, but the price and condition was not the only reasons why I chose that machine - It was that I was able to get a complete adjusters manual for the exact machine, that was the deciding factor - In fact, I had the manual in hand before we even got the machine - That alone was so important to me, that I would have passed on the Kansai, if I couldn't have that resource........ This should tell you something.

And, yeah, dikman, it's a crazy stitch, and a crazy machine - The engineers that figured out how to do it must also have been crazy, or maybe, they just were driven to promote the production of tight women's leggings, and stretchy swimsuits, for some reason - Go figure

Hi trash,

Before this post, i just want to thank you again for keeping on responding to my thread, you're the only help I have  Even if you don't know the answer, I appreciate it anyway.

I have adjusted the looper take up mechanism, which was set all the way to the bottom, I put it back to the marks they have listed in the manual...

Although maybe I shouldn't have adjusted that? Since it says if using elastic thread, to move it all the way forward. Up to this point I was just using regular overlocker thread, but today I tried the stretch thread that came with the machine (that they were obviously using with it). Anyway the change didn't seem to make any difference.

After looking at it closer, it's hard to say whether or not the spreader is hitting the needle threads. I tried moving the small thread guard back so the threads would be held back away from the spreader even more, and it still made the noise. It sounds like part of it is the spreader thread coming OFF the spreader, and more noise from all the threads being tensioned as the spreader goes back towards the right. Does yours do that?

Yup needle bar heght is good, atleast what from Siruba sent me...7.6mm roughly from tip of left needle to top of the needle plate. 

And you're right, I am using supplex actually for this project, trying to make some leggings actually  I've also tried regular overlocker thread, and now fuzzy or stretch thread in the loopers. The top stitch is almost perfect now, but the backside...wow...such a pain in the ass. There are almost always loops in the needle threads, even if they're sitting flat on the top. I've tried increasing the needle thread tension more and more and more, doesn't seem to help much. How tight are yours exactly? Like pretty damn tight? 

You're right, having the manual is definitely important...

I took some videos of the machine in action, as well as the pinging noise I was talking about. You can clearly see it happens as the spreader thread comes off the spreader itself, as well as when the threads are tensioned...

Note the pictures below are all strips of test lines that I did on a piece of supplex, not all the tensions are the same on them...but one thing is usually in common, the right needle thread (white) is always messed up on the back side...like it doesn't have enough tension...but feeling the tension knobs by hand, it feels exactly the same as the other two needle threads...Changed threads, same deal. On these industrial machines, there's no way to tell how "tight" the tension knob is, or even how many turns it has gone around...how do you do it trash treasure? Just by feel, or another more accurate method? 

It's almost as if the right needle thread is getting pulled too much, causing it to loop, but I checked all the paths it goes through, and it's the same as the other 2 needle threads 

And when I mentioned adjustments in my last post, I was referring to adjustments of the thread tensions, and in what order you do it personally? Do you do loopers first, and then needles? Or needles first, then loopers? etc.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[Wizcrafts]

This machine is fascinating!

[trash treasure]

Fascinating, as Wiz (and Mr Spock) would say .......

It's hard for me to tell anything from your videos - I can't get them to play clearly enough on my computer

OK, I think you may want to check the thread take up guides (second to last of your machine photos) - They need to be set very specifically , and I've found that they make a BIG difference in stitch quality - The Kansai went from randomly skipping stitches, to perfect, just by adjusting them.

One very curious thing - On your machine, the take up guides (the 3 bent rods with holes at top), are set oddly, to my thinking - I have instructions for 2 of these machines, the Kansai, and a Pegasus (somewhat similar), and on both of them, the guides are set exactly OPPOSITE from yours - IE. height progression is from high outer to low inner - Opposite yours.    Is your set up what Siruba calls for, or is that just the way it came?  I attached a photo of the Kansai set up, so you can see what I'm talking about.    I suggest you go through the adjustment for the whole take-up mechanism, and see what's what - And as you might guess, there's also an internal TIMING adjustment for it, as well as the external ones

As to initial tension set up, my wife (Who is the master at this machine - I'm only the mechanic), says that you don't set EITHER upper or lower tension first - Back everything off, and then start tensioning it all up gradually - Tensions should be increased EVENLY, for the most part - If you have to tension one thread much more, then something else is most always wrong - And none of the tensions should need to be really tight - If so, look elsewhere for the problem.

[Sugarkryptonite]

On 5/11/2019 at 8:06 AM, trash treasure said:

Fascinating, as Wiz (and Mr Spock) would say .......

It's hard for me to tell anything from your videos - I can't get them to play clearly enough on my computer

OK, I think you may want to check the thread take up guides (second to last of your machine photos) - They need to be set very specifically , and I've found that they make a BIG difference in stitch quality - The Kansai went from randomly skipping stitches, to perfect, just by adjusting them.

One very curious thing - On your machine, the take up guides (the 3 bent rods with holes at top), are set oddly, to my thinking - I have instructions for 2 of these machines, the Kansai, and a Pegasus (somewhat similar), and on both of them, the guides are set exactly OPPOSITE from yours - IE. height progression is from high outer to low inner - Opposite yours.    Is your set up what Siruba calls for, or is that just the way it came?  I attached a photo of the Kansai set up, so you can see what I'm talking about.    I suggest you go through the adjustment for the whole take-up mechanism, and see what's what - And as you might guess, there's also an internal TIMING adjustment for it, as well as the external ones

As to initial tension set up, my wife (Who is the master at this machine - I'm only the mechanic), says that you don't set EITHER upper or lower tension first - Back everything off, and then start tensioning it all up gradually - Tensions should be increased EVENLY, for the most part - If you have to tension one thread much more, then something else is most always wrong - And none of the tensions should need to be really tight - If so, look elsewhere for the problem.

Hi again trash.

Hope you had a nice weekend.

You're right about the thread guides. I initially had them the way in my pictures, then I switched them to being all even height, and then I switched them to being like yours. To be honest I don't know what way is the right way. For example, Juki MF7900 coverstitch machine has them the same way mine came from the P.O.

Here is also a picture I got from a local classifieds site, where another machine like mine is for sale, as you can see, she has all of them even height (she obviously used the machine, set up with a binder and everything, and says it works perfectly):

So I cannot say for sure which way is right...I know that if I put them the way the machine CAME to me, the right needle thread will slightly touch the take up arm when it is down all the way, which is why I initially changed it. My take up arm is mirrored compared to yours where the threads go through. The pages in the manual I got sent from Siruba didn't have that piece of information...I have asked them if they could send me the full copy of it. No response yet.
 

Stitches are slowly getting better, but I'm still having a hard time, especially getting the left side of the spreader thread to "open up" like you showed in your pictures. I had gotten it to work, and then I changed out some threads and tensions and now I can't get it to look like that anymore. Not sure what the trick is.

I've tried loosening the left needle thread, tightening it, loosening and tightening spread thread until my mind went numb, not sure what I'm doing wrong. Even just now, I had it stitching decently on a piece of navy supplex, and then I switched to a piece of gray, same thickness and all, and the spreader thread was all loose between the middle and right needles...I don't get it. 

The one thing I'm really curious about would be the "steps" for adjusting the thread settings on the machine. At this point I just feel like I'm changing random settings to see what happens, but it has me burning through pieces of material just with all test lines on them. If you could ask your wife I would be curious (and very grateful) to see what she says.

For example, when setting up the machine for a piece of fabric and new threads:

1) What are the "steps" in order? Is it adjust the differential feed first? Then presser foot tension? And leave the thread tensions for last? Or another order of those steps?

2) When adjusting the differential feed, how do you know when it's "right"?

3) When adjusting the presser foot tension, how do you know when it's "right"? I had some supplex pulling a bit to the left when going through the machine, so I tried tightening the presser foot tension and it did seem to help, but still not sure.

Much appreciated again.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[Sugarkryptonite]

Sorry just to add something...can't edit my post...I did manage tonight to get the spacing back as shown above by continuing to increase the spreader tension. If I increased it even one tick too much, though, the right needle thread would start to get pulled almost to the path of the middle needle. Any idea for that as well?

All of the needle thread tensions seem to be okay, in relation to the looper pattern on the back.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

Hi again -

I'm still thinking that it might be something with the take up - That mechanism is very important for stitch formation on these machines.                   There are several external and internal adjustments there - The height and orientation of those guides is just one of them. But I don't think I should give you the Kansai specs for them, unless you totally strike out with Siruba.    Like I said before, it could be very wrong for your machine.

Speaking of that - What's with Siruba? It seems they're just dribbling out partial info, when you beg for it - I mean, if they have the manual for one of their old machines, why don't they just give it (Or sell it) to you complete, and be done?     OTOH, if they don't have it, they should say so.

As far as relying on what someone else's machine has for a take up adjustment, I wouldn't count on that at all, just because they say "It sews fine" - I've bought more than one used machine that was described that way, and found that it was FAR from the truth.     It may be, that with the person's crazy binder set up, that's the only way they could get it to sew at all - You just don't know.

The order to set up the machine for different fabric / thread would be tension first, then maybe foot pressure, if the thickness or texture was much different, and then differential last, after observing the test seams for lengthwise puckering, etc.   You may be jumping around too much, in an effort to get it sewing 

As to it feeding at an angle, it could be a couple things - Needle bar straight?  Foot straight ( These also have a sort of hinged compensating arrangement, and a forward / back adjustment)? Correct foot? There is a special, short, binder foot for these machines, that could have been swapped in at some point.  Feed dogs level and square with the needle plate? I don't think just increasing the foot pressure is necessarily the correct way to fix it, unless it was VERY light to begin with - That always just makes a machine work harder, if it's not really needed.

A last thought - Something like Supplex, being a "flatter" woven, vs. a softer knit, is always going to amplify any stitch irregularity - Just sayin'.

[Sugarkryptonite]

An update to this...thanks for your help trash treasure. The machine has been working decently, but I cannot get a nice thread formation on the top spreader unless I am using wooly nylon type thread that spreads apart easier. If I try using regular overlocker thread like I have in the needles, no luck in getting a nice pattern.

Anyway on a side note, I have finally gotten some adjusting information from a Siruba rep in Miami, who very kindly gave me this information. I had asked many dealers for this information, and they straight up refuse to give it to me. I believe my machine is adjusted pretty well at this point, so for everyone here and anyone in the future, I am attaching it to this post so you can adjust your machine as well. The English writing isn't that great, but you get the idea. I am also attaching an album of pictures with adjusting information for different models (different needle spacing). Sorry, the order of the pictures might be wrong.

Siruba Coverstitch F007/C007:

Adjusting information: 

https://imgur.com/a/C5bnOE3

Powerpoint showing pictures how to adjust each detail (refer back to the above images for exact adjusting numbers depending on your machine): 

https://mega.nz/#!afojAATA!IKxGQ5Q1fjecPlIIbprzyDr5Ez-IKyE68J1udVq6a2w

Edited June 18, 2019 by Sugarkryptonite

[trash treasure]

Hi, again -

The only thing I can think of, in relation to the difference in behavior between the wooly nylon and the regular overlock thread, is the threading path.

On the Kansai (again, not a Siruba), there is an alternate threading path for stretch thread, in 3 different places - I went back and looked at your threading schematic, and it looks like you might have a couple choices on your machine - If you look at the diagram, you see some of the threads are shown with a solid line, AND a dotted one, which (on the Kansai, anyway) indicates an alternate threading for stretch thread.  Have you checked this?