My old Durkopp is driving me up the wall!

[toxo]

Have renewed a few bits and watched the videos and adjusted this and that and In the words of the late and great Eric Morecambe,

I think I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.

I think the problem isn't helped by the fact that I'm using M6o thread because I have lots of it. Is there a better size for tuning or does it not matter? I say this because after trying different size needles, 120 seems to work best but the thread still shreds or breaks. I realise this is a lot to do with tension, the thread was jumping out of the lower disc which is free to revolve, then I found if you get it in a certain place and snag the thread under the hook thing it stays put and doesn't jump out. The adjustment screw in back of the tension unit isn't attached to anything and the rod that comes across when you lift the presser foot with the knee thing only moves slightly and doesn't contact anything. I don't think this is affecting the tuning process. I've watched Uwes video but it starts with timing marks which I don't have. What's needed for plebs like me is a .... Start here then do that and then do that etc. If this is happening then do this, if this happens after that then do this. You get what I mean. A big problem for me is the underlying thought that there is something wrong with the machine but it keeps me on the hook with surprises every now and then. It was beating me severely when I was trying to sew canvas to see if there was any improvement and then I stuck two pieces of 3mm veg tan under it and it sewed it, not very well but it sewed it. I'm sort of bonding with the bloody thing and I hate the thought that it might just be a boat anchor.

[shoepatcher]

What model of machine is it?  pics?

glenn

[toxo]

On 6/26/2019 at 1:23 PM, shoepatcher said:

What model of machine is it?  pics?

glenn

It's a 239-125 Glenn.

I'll post some pics later after resizing.

I've got it sewing canvas almost well but it won't look at leather yet. The thread is shredding and breaking and I think I've just found out why. The thread guide just above the needle is broken and I thought it wouldn't matter but I've just stopped before it broke and found the thread had looped around the end of the needle, hence the shredding and breaking. Am I right guys? I'm now thinking that's what the guide is there to stop.

[shoepatcher]

That would leave a ragged edge for the thread to catch on.  pics will definitely help.

glenn

[toxo]

This first image is about the lower disc. It's free to turn unless you make sure to hook the thread under the hook thing at about 1.o'clock on the disc. Even then it turns. the adjuster behind the tension mechanism (below the red oil hole) is attached to nothing and does nothing.

This is the thread I'm using at the moment primarily because it's thicker than the M60 that I have loads of. Was using a 120 needle that seemed ok but I broke the last one and here I'm using a 140. Now that I've kinda solved the shredding problem I'll go back to try other sizes.

when there was no guide above the needle.

After I cobbled a sort of guide together and tried some more tensions it started to sew :)

Eight layers of canvas. Still breaking thread now and then but definitely light at the end of the tunnel! I can see a servo motor in my stars.

[Constabulary]

It´s always a good advise to post pictures as soon as a problem occurs. Pictures tell more than 1000 words  

On the 1st pic I can see that the tension unit is not correctly assembled. The screw that holds the lower left "discs" in place is missing therefore it moved out of position and you most likely missed the small hook inside the disc when threading the machine.

Pictures stolen from College Sewing UK - Dürkopp 239 and Singer 111 (and others brands) share the same tension unit. However - I never replaced the screw alone - not sure if spare screws are out there. Generic units are relatively cheap if you and to replace it.

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/store/240446-TENSION-COMPLETE-SINGER-111W

Not sure what threading this screw has - maybe you have a short M3 (?) screw in you junk box and maybe an M3 tap...

Edited June 27, 2019 by Constabulary

[toxo]

Thanks Folker. I found the screw but the thread's gone. It's holding in there but loose. I could prolly fix it but a new one wouldn't hurt at that price. I just checked it on a couple bits of leather but no good. On closer inspection the bloody hook timing has shifted.

[toxo]

Can anyone tell me where I can get this missing screw? On page 8 of the Durkopp parts list I think it's #024214a but my German is a bit rusty ha ha! 

College couldn't help but whilst I was on the phone to them this morning I had a brain fart and ordered a servo motor.

 

[shoepatcher]

That number  sounds like a singer screw number.

glenn

[mikesc]

Looks like it might be an M3 or M4 thread there..if so, any M3 or M4 threaded bolt will do..try one that is too long, cut ( and file the cut end clean ) to required length..

[toxo]

Good shout Mike. It is a German (metric) machine. Just thought the part might be available. I should have something if it is.

[mikesc]

If the head on a bolt would get in the way..use a piece of threaded bar..cut it "flush" to depth before fitting..then cut a screw slot across the diameter of the bar..to make a "grub screw"..I'd make it from a piece of "stainless" IIWY, cutting the slot will be a bit awkward, but if you use a Dremel with a disc to cut it, life will be easier..there are some dome head bolts in stainless with a hex or torx inset in the dome..those would be ideal..but to get just one or a few, try a custom motor cycle shop..they use a lot of "aeronautic grade" bolts and screws..But you do want stainless steel not aluminium, and brass would be too soft to get it back out easily after a while..

[toxo]

Thanks again Mike. All good advice. Just hope it's just a clamping thing and nothing complicated in there. Haven't sorted it yet cos postman brought presents today. Servo motor now fitted and working cept clipping the cables up. Will go up in a bit to change the tension unit and then let the thing beat me up some more. I'm enjoying the learning tough. Softly softly catchee monkey.

[toxo]

I'm seriously getting fed up now. New servo motor. new tension unit. tried every combination of needle sizes from 90 to 140 with 20/40/60 bonded thread. sharpened the hook and timed with zero stitch set. And still shredding  thread and skipping stitches. I can only take so much and I have to walk away and do something else. But the grey matter still processes and I've just had an idea. The shredding seems to be happening below the needle plate. Now I've just looked at this picture of my cobbled together thread guide just above the needle and I'm thinking the angle of the thread is wrong. With a decent amount of tension maybe it's not only shredding the thread but might it not also pull the needle resulting in missed stitches? Will investigate and inform.

[mikesc]

If your "thread guide" is what I can see at the top of the small image you posted, ( semi circle of bent wire ) then it is certainly not helping the stitch to form..
The thread needs to be much closer in to the needle..it must be in the groove on the left side of the needle as the needle is moving through the leather ( both up and down ) the thread should be touching the needle in that groove almost all the way along it..

[Constabulary]

No offense but you should have posted more detailed pictures of your machine from the start so we probably could have seen if something is wrong on the machine. Seeing the "whole picture" can lead to faster and better evaluations / solutions.

The Singer 111 needle bar works on your 239. College Sewing has them

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/store/240498-NEEDLE-BAR-SINGER-COMPLETE

If you replace the whole bar you already know where you can find spare thread guides or screws if you need them in the future. Better order a few spare needle screws too. If you loose them on a carpet you never find them again - guess how I know! See items description for spare parts numbers.

Thread shredding often is caused by needle / hook timing issues. sometimes it helps lowering or rising the needle bar just a tiny bit - even when you followed the values from the manual.

EDIT:

It also could be the needle hook distance. If the needle is too far away form the hook tip thread could be shredded. There also is a bobbin case opener that needs attention if not properly adjusted thread could hang on it and break. Or in worst case a combination of all this.

Can you post a short video with open bobbin cover while sewing (slow hand cranking if possible) and the thread shredding happens? Maybe we can see something...

Edited July 3, 2019 by Constabulary

[toxo]

I'll address the closer to the needle/needle bar thing for sure but I seem to have bigger problems.

As the guy with the Consew is experiencing, there seems to be a problem with the space between the bobbin carrier and the needle plate. As you know Folker, originally there was a one piece singer hook which I replaced with a two piece Duerkopp hook. Firstly I decided to leave out the needle guard because it was making the problem above even worse. Secondly the Duerkopp hook can be installed two ways with 180 degrees between the two. I installed it and timed accordingly but was never sure if it was the right way round. Today I took the hook out and turned it around,  I also installed the needle guard and faffed around with the timing and the needle bar. Now, apart from the problem of the thread not getting under the needle plate, I can't get the hook close enough to the scarf to  pick up the thread. It seems as if something has moved on the feed dog side because I'm right up against it. I will attempt a couple of vids later If I haven't chucked it away

[cdthayer]

11 hours ago, toxo said:

still shredding  thread and skipping stitches

For what it's worth, I've had two machines that experienced a shredded thread at the needle problem.

One is a Consew 225 compound feed machine.  I ordered new left and right toe feet to work zippers, and while one pair worked just great, the other pair ended up with shredded and broken upper thread.  Finally, I discovered that when the Chinese drilled the needle hole in the inner foot of this pair, they never went back to knock the burr off underneath from drilling the needle hole.  There was a piece of slag under the foot in the thread groove that worked kind of like a thread cutter, but not as well.  Once I knocked that piece of burr off, the foot has been working great.

Two was recently with my old 1917 Singer 16-41 Jump-foot machine. Once I started getting shredded upper thread, and got to looking at things, I discovered that the inner foot that had been very close to the thread where it exited the needle had become even closer to the thread from use. The inner foot has a small hole for the needle to pass through, and had began rubbing the thread against the needle plate hole enough to shred the thread bad enough that one strand would break and start a "fuzz-back" in the needle until other strands would break and add to a massive bird-nest above the needle at the last thread guide.  Once I realigned the center foot hole to match the needle plate hole, no more shredding.

CD in Oklahoma

[toxo]

After much trial and tribulation I have it sewing again with no shredding. It is still breaking thread, sometimes under the needle plate but more often at the lower tension disc. Can someone please explain how this disc is supposed to work? There seems to be no uniformity to the breakages, sometimes after an inch, sometimes after about eight inches but never more than that. I have taken a couple of videos but I don't have anything to get them below 1.4MB. What do you guys use?

[mikesc]

Videos..Depends on what your computer is ..try downloading "handbrake" ( freeware ) ..and using it to reduce the video size..
or do what most people do...
Upload it to youtube..and post here the embedded link to the video on youtube..
HTH :)

[toxo]

You've done me again Mike! I've done just that a few times in the past. In fact I have an imgur account somewhere. (Don't think imgur does video)

Here's the one breaking M60 tread.

And then I dismantled the lower disc and had another fiddle. Things seemed to be better so I loaded up with TKT20 and a 140 needle and, hooray! I don't have to throw it away. Still a way to go with presser feet and tension and stitch length but I'm a lot happier now.

https://youtu.be/g5bU5A38NbI

 

[kgg]

Looking at your video I am wondering why you have your thread path through all the holes in the pin guide. I think you have threaded the thread pin guide incorrectly. You threaded from your spool of thread through the bottom hole in the thread pin guide up through all the holes too the top then onto the main top thread tensioner. I think the thread pin guide on your machine is the same or similar to the one used in a double needle machine, two threads with one thread pin guide. I think the way you have threaded the thread pin guide has added way to much top tension to your thread causing the thread to fray and break at the thread lever just past the main thread tensioner. I would try threading from your thread spool to the top hole in the thread pin guide and then through one more hole before going to the main thread tensioner.

kgg

[Constabulary]

Agree what kgg said AND you have not pulled the thread over the small hook (prong) in the tension unit  - see this Video. I mentioned the small hook in my post from June 27th.

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Constabulary

[toxo]

Thanks guys.

kgg, haven't thought about that for a long time. Have seen vids threaded this way and started off with fewer holes but nothing seemed to work. Have since changed the whole tension unit so definitely will look at that again.

Constabulary, have been using the back hook since you told me about it but the thread  was still jumping out and snagging on the knurled knob. It only seemed to work properly after I fiddled with the adjuster thing in back of the tension unit. Maybe I did something wrong when installing it but there were times when it just wouldn't pull through at all even with next to no tension. That disc is still a complete mystery to me but at least it's working now. The bit when, after you finish sewing and pull the work away is still a battle sometimes and I rock the wheel and sometimes it 's free and sometimes it just won't free up. Is there a trick to this or is it just fine tuning?

Now I'm looking forward to playing with it.

Constabulary, do you happen to know the size of the shaft on the Jack motor. I have a 40mm pulley I can put on if it's 15mm.

[Gymnast]

I noticed, that you use M60 thread, and it is like tex 40 or tex 45. In your latest video you sew three layers of veg tan leather. I think your thread in general will be too thin for that, and I should use at least tex 70 (M40) to this kind of material. I think this thinner thread will be easier to break for materials like veg tan leather, because you need to have quite high thread tension to pull the lock into the leather.

I suppose you have checked the lower thread tension to be right and not too high.

Your video shows the thread to be damaged before breaking right behind the check spring. I should check the tensions discs and all the thread guides around it for any wear that may damage your thread on its way. It may also be the hole in the thread take-up. If you have got a dynamometer to measure thread tension you look for any anormalities in tension, when thread passes the tensioner and its surroundings. You may also feel tension variations by hand while pulling the thread there.