Should my 227R-2 be releasing the upper tension at any point?

[williaty]

On a domestic sewing machine, the mechanism releases the upper tension at one point in the stitch and also releases the upper tension when you lock the presser foot up. My Consew 227R-2 doesn't do either of these things. It's full tension all the time. Is this a normal difference between a typical domestic sewing machine and a larger industrial, or does this indicate a problem with my 227R-2?

[mikesc]

Upper tension should release when you lift the feet "lift lever" ( either by hand or by knee control ) ..tension discs ( the ones with the spiral spring on them ) should move apart.

[cdthayer]

1 hour ago, williaty said:

On a domestic sewing machine, the mechanism releases the upper tension at one point in the stitch....

It does?

CD in Oklahoma

[mikesc]

Yep, I let that one "go by me" CD.. :) None of my ( nor any I ever saw* ) domestics, or Industrials ever released the upper tension during the stitch. Unless they had a problem / were broken/ missing a part / or more than one part.

 

*I haven't seen them all ( sewing machines ) by any means, very far from it, so am always willing to hear of one that does..deliberately.

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, williaty said:

On a domestic sewing machine, the mechanism releases the upper tension at one point in the stitch...

12 minutes ago, cdthayer said:

It does?

No, but this idea was mentioned in an enthusiastic hobbyist's video on one particular model of domestic machine that became popular, and appears to have become part of the fuddlore very quickly. I've owned over a dozen different lock-stitch sewing machines, domestic and industrial, and operated a good few more. Full gamut of 1800s to current manufacture. Chinese, German, British, American, Japanese. Not an expert but a wider range of experience than many operators. I have never come across a design that released thread tension as it stitched.

In answer to the OP's question, as mentioned already the vast vast majority of industrial designs release the thread tension as the presser foot/feet is lifted, either by hand or foot, but not at any point in the normal stitch cycle. Most machines have a check spring which takes up slack thread after the stitch cycle TDC (when the take-up lever reaches its highest point), when the needle thread is at its lowest tension, which on a domestic machine is often quite low. This might lend some credence to the idea of the thread tension being released but it's definitely not, otherwise the check spring would return to its lower stop immediately.

The one exception I've come across is the wonderful but obsolete BUSM/Pearson No6 heavy harness stitcher, which doesn't release tension on lifting the pedal but does to an extent during one portion of the cycle. Even then it's not a proper release of tension as upper thread tension derives from about 4 or 5 points and only the first one of these (the thread clamp IIRC) releases its vice-like hold at any point. If it didn't the machine wouldn't be able to draw new thread. It's an odd beast designed over a century ago and operates quite differently to what's common these days.

[Pintodeluxe]

Industrial machines use a lot more upper tension than domestic machines.  There will always be some top tension, but the foot lift / or knee lift should release most of the upper tension.  Look and feel the tension discs as you lift the foot.  Do the discs separate slightly?

If not, you may need to replace the tension assembly and related parts.  

[mikesc]

Quote

Industrial machines use a lot more upper tension than domestic machines.  There will always be some top tension, but the foot lift / or knee lift should release most of the upper tension.  Look and feel the tension discs as you lift the foot.  Do the discs separate slightly?

If not, you may need to replace the tension assembly and related parts.  

If they don't separate, it isn't usually the tension assembly that is at fault, but usually it is the tiny metal rod inside the machine behind the tension assembly , that is actioned ( pushed towards the tension discs ) when you lift the foot, when it works properly, it pushes against the outer tension disc, thus separating it from the inner tension disc.The amount of this movement is tiny ( a few mm ) but if the rod is broken, or worn, or missing.. then the tension discs will not be pushed part when the feet are lifted..This metal rod is not sold as part of the tension assembly..no point in replacing a tension assembly if the problem is with the rod or elsewhere.

re .BUSM/Pearson No6..Interesting Matt , I've never seen one in action / IRL , although I think one was for sale ( about €800.00 ) last year about 50 kms from me.I'd have no use for one so didn't "go see". Likewise there was a very cheap large powered clicker for sale last week about 100 km away ( may still be ) , but I'd have no use for it.

Edited August 19, 2019 by mikesc

[cdthayer]

3 hours ago, Matt S said:

No, but this idea was mentioned in an enthusiastic hobbyist's video on one particular model of domestic machine that became popular, and appears to have become part of the fuddlore very quickly....

It's some of that "Fake News" that you hear about all of the time.  Harry and Youtube will leave that fake news video up from now on, steering folks wrong...

CD in Oklahoma

[mikesc]

Harry ?

[cdthayer]

31 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Harry ?

Watch the video in this thread.

CD in Oklahoma

 

[mikesc]

Ah..Yes..;) I see now..having watched "the video"..I missed the thread that you linked to..

Yep..I think he just put the tension unit too far in when he fitted it and convinced himself that if the rod was actioning the tension discs during each stitch cycle that there must be a good reason ( what he imagined it was, we'll never know ) for it as opposed to "I put the thing in too far"

As was said in the comments on that thread, it is a shame that Harry didn't take the video down , that would have saved all those who watched it from making the same mistake as the wrong information has now become what Matt referred to as "fuddlore" ( I like that one, I may steal it, a perfectly cromulent word there )..Reminds me of the "the thread goes around the little pin at the tension discs" on the Altas video..Aaargh !! That is a real piece of misinformation, shows up here regularly.

Apparently on those "all in one" tension and take up spring assemblies, the little rod is sold with them. so when I wrote "this metal rod is not sold as part of the tension assembly" earlier, I was wrong ?..I've never bought one of those "all in ones"..I'm used to the machines that have the tension discs assembly and the take up spring assembly as separate units, or..someone has been leaving the rods out when I've bought tension disc assemblies.

Took a while to find your comment on the youtube thread. I hate the youtube comments system with the "click to see replies" to each comment..Why can't they use "nested" comments and replies, so that you see all the comments and all the replies to each, instead of their "hunt the needle"..Wouldn't hurt Google to "auto translate" comments in other languages either, if Alibaba / Aliexpress can do it in their reviews, why not Google, who own a translation engine, not that it translates well between the languages that I know, but it would be better than my trying to read languages that I don't know <= there are a lot of them.

Edited August 19, 2019 by mikesc

[Matt S]

8 hours ago, williaty said:

My Consew 227R-2 [is at] full tension all the time. Is this [snip] normal [snip], or does this indicate a problem with my 227R-2?

Just re-read your question. Is your needle thread a or near full tension (screwed down on the beehive spring)? Because if it is the tension won't be released when you lift the foot. If this is the case you are more likely to have other issues too, such as the thread cuttign into the leather. If your needle tension screw is most or all of the way down release it about halfway, adjust your bobbin tension to roughly match, then adjust the needle tension up or down to balance the stitch. Your machine will work much smoother.

Or if the needle thread tension is normal, ignore everything I just said and look for the little pusher pin. I've had the tension unit back out from the casting a few times. Not enough that you'd notice but enough that the pin couldn't separate the tension discs enough when the foot was lifted.

6 hours ago, mikesc said:

re .BUSM/Pearson No6..Interesting Matt , I've never seen one in action / IRL , although I think one was for sale ( about €800.00 ) last year about 50 kms from me.I'd have no use for one so didn't "go see". Likewise there was a very cheap large powered clicker for sale last week about 100 km away ( may still be ) , but I'd have no use for it.

They are wonderful machines, with very little documentation online, which I hope to alleviate. Very Victorian beasts. They'll sew your hand to your leg given half a chance but would take a week to do so.

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

[snip]"fuddlore" ( I like that one, I may steal it, a perfectly cromulent word there )[snip]

I'm glad to embiggen your vocabulary! (Word comes from "Fudd", a partially-derogatory term in firearm collector circles for ignorant gun owners, especially hunters -- think Elmer. Fudds are people happier to repeat something they half-remember reading in a book than to fact-check or even do some original investigation themselves. Fuddlore sticks around like shit to a blanket even years after it's disproved.)

[mikesc]

Ah yes..we have many Elmers in France ( about 7 million with licences, and as many again without )..Weekend Rambos..( Cammo wearing, Pastis swigging, French ciggies smoking, loud, drunk, and they have totally disobedient dogs that have bells on and get shouted at incessantly, all of which shouted commands the dogs ignore ) If they only shot themselves when they were pissed ( they manage to shoot each other many times , all standing around the same tiny copse , or clump of bushes, and pointing their shotguns into the middle, ignoring the fact that their mates are in line of fire at the other side of it might be a reason ) it would be OK, but they also manage to get a few mushroom gatherers and ramblers every year.

If I'm going to hunt for food, ( partial to a bit of wild boar ( sanglier ) we are* ) I'll do it on my own, or with mates from the military or gendarmerie who can shoot, and who stay sober ) not with a group of drunks, who meet in the bar at 6 or 7 am before going out for a days shooting, who think that the prey can't hear or smell them, ( the idea of "downwind" is too complicated when one can barely see through the alcohol haze to drive the 4x4s to where the "bétes" are thought to be ) but they wear cammo so that the prey can't seen them ( nothing to do with playing Rambo , honest ) and who can't see accurately at 25 yards in open country let alone shoot accurately at that distance..

*Some have been known to say it is caused by bearing more than a passing resemblance to Obelix..but not fat / gros.

Edited August 20, 2019 by mikesc

[williaty]

OK, to try to catch up on everything that's been said/replied/etc.

 

1) My only experience with domestics is the old Singers and they do bump the same pin that the presser foot lift does in order to release tension. That's why I assumed all domestics acted that way since so many of them are clones or clone descendants of the 15 and 66 designs.

 

2) No, the tension discs on the 227R-2 do not move away from each other at all when I lift the presser foot via the lever or the foot lift (I have a pedal, not a knee paddle)

 

3) FWIW, I've never been convinced this machine is exactly right. The only way I've been able to get it to make a balanced stitch is with the bobbin case tension maxed out and the upper tension so loose the nut just about falls off.

[mikesc]

Even the old singer domestics ( any of them, all models ) are not supposed to "bump" that pin, when the tension unit is fitted or being changed it is supposed to be inserted not too deeply into the body, ( when re-inserting it , test to make sure that the foot lift only actions it when the feet are half way up..not before* ) so that the pin is not "bumped" when the machine is stitching , and is only pushed when the feet are lifted..The fact that you may be lucky and get a stitch to form correctly when that needle gets bumped during stitching is not an indicator of it behaving correctly, just that the machines were badly d set up or tinkered with at some time in their lives.

 Your tensions discs should move apart when the feet are lifted ( doesn't matter if it is by a pedal, or a knee lift, or a manual lift )..without that you are never getting proper separation of the discs when you thread your machine..Sounds like your tension assembly needs taking out and cleaning thoroughly , inside and out..and you need to see if you have the little rod that is supposed to be actioning the tension release.You may have it and it may be stuck / rusted, or you may be missing it.

 

If after stripping and cleaning your tension unit , it still doesn't work correctly , swap it for a new one..Order a new one anyway, that way if you should break anything on the old one while you are exploring how they work, you'll have a new one on the way and wont be stuck..It is the kind of thing that you always have a spare for each machine that you have. Like spare bobbin cases..

* reason to do this is so that if you need to you can plant the needle in the work, lift the feet just a touch , keeping the tension, and turn the work if you need to, like when turning a corner..

Think about what happens when a stitch is formed on a lock stitch machine which uses a descending / ascending needle  and a bobbin in a hook, domestic or industrial..Why would the top thread ( the one that the needle carries ) need it's tension releasing at any point in the cycle that forms a stitch ?

Edited August 20, 2019 by mikesc

[Matt S]

3 hours ago, williaty said:

the tension discs on the 227R-2 do not move away from each other at all when I lift the presser foot via the lever or the foot lift (I have a pedal, not a knee paddle)

3) FWIW, I've never been convinced this machine is exactly right. The only way I've been able to get it to make a balanced stitch is with the bobbin case tension maxed out and the upper tension so loose the nut just about falls off.

These are probably interconnected; if your tension is cranked down all the way (maximum or near maximum) the tension discs won't move apart.

What happens if you reduce bobbin and needle tension?

[williaty]

17 hours ago, Matt S said:

These are probably interconnected; if your tension is cranked down all the way (maximum or near maximum) the tension discs won't move apart.

What happens if you reduce bobbin and needle tension?

Needle tension can't be reduced any more or the nut falls off the tension unit. If I loosen the screw on the bobbin case, the stitch gets unbalanced and pulls the bobbin thread clear to the top. Has to be locked tight on bobbin tension, about to fall apart loose on top tension, and then I get a correct stitch.

 

Sounds like it's time to learn to take one of these tension units apart. Does anyone have a guide/tutorial/adjustment instructions for it?

[williaty]

OK, I have to amend my statements a little bit after looking at the machine more closely. I couldn't find any take-apart guides but I did find some ebay pictures of replacement tension units that showed all sides. From that, I could see how it was supposed to release the tension and then compared that to what my machine actually does.

1) The foot pedal lift of the presser foot does eventually release the tension discs but you have to raise the foot right to the limit of travel. I've been lifting the foot just enough to clear the work and that's not enough to activate the tension release.

2) The lever for the presser foot lift has 2 places it'll stop. If you lift up on the lever, you fight spring tension a bit and then suddenly the lever gets over the hump and the resistance goes away and the lever will stay up. In this position, the little pin that's supposed to push on the tension unit to release it hasn't moved at all. However, if you keep moving the lever up past this point, you'll get spring tension again, another feeling of getting over the hump, and the lever will settle into a much higher position. In this position, the lever will hit the tension release pin and the discs will open. I had no idea there was a second detent position on the presser foot lift lever.

 

Basically, as soon as the little pin that comes out of the machine begins to move, the discs fall apart exactly like they should. It just appears that getting the pin that passes through the machine to actually start moving requires a LOT of presser foot travel.

[Wizcrafts]

The tension assembly has a steel tab on the back side that can be bent in or out to affect the slack in the tension release system. If there is too much slack, you have to move the feet higher to get it to release. You can pry the bent tab so it has a minimum of clearance between the rod in the machine and the pin in the tension disk unit. The entire unit can be removed if necessary to adjust the steel tab. It is held in by a screw on top and a screw on the bottom area of the head, to the right of the (lower) check spring disks. The bottom screw holds in the check spring shaft and sets the spring's return force.

[Matt S]

26 minutes ago, williaty said:

Needle tension can't be reduced any more or the nut falls off the tension unit. If I loosen the screw on the bobbin case, the stitch gets unbalanced and pulls the bobbin thread clear to the top. Has to be locked tight on bobbin tension, about to fall apart loose on top tension, and then I get a correct stitch.

 

Sounds like it's time to learn to take one of these tension units apart. Does anyone have a guide/tutorial/adjustment instructions for it?

If your tension nut is that close to falling off the stud you're either running at incredibly low tension or you're getting extra tension from somewhere else. The nut should be somewhere near the middle of the stud in normal operation, or at least within the middle three quarters of the threaded length.

Any chance you can post a photo of your thread path?

If you're getting results you like from your machine, generally speaking, keep going how you're going -- especially now you've figured out the lifter. However if it were me I'd be leery about having something so out of kilter on my machine. But then I never knew when to leave something alone!

As a small aside I hardly ever use the lifting lever on any of my machines -- the pedal is far more convenient, and it'll lift the foot higher than the lever anyway. The lever is handy for licking the foot "up", though.