Sewing Bulky Foam On Singer 4411

[AusSimon]

Hey All,

I have a Singer 4411 and it sews my 4oz leather beautifully.

However when i bond a 1/2" of foam to the bottom, the machine fails to pick up the bobbin thread... 

Am I doing something wrong? I have tried to increase the presser foot tension, but no luck there...

When the presser foot is down the total thickness of the fabric is 3mm (see photo). I would have thought that would be no issues for this machine?

Any help would be HUGELY appreciated.

Regards,

Simon

[mikesc]

The foam is affecting the loop ( what the hook goes through, at the needle scarf ) formation.

[AusSimon]

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

The foam is affecting the loop ( what the hook goes through, at the needle scarf ) formation.

Interesting... that sounds about right.

Is there a way to overcome it?

[kgg]

2 hours ago, AusSimon said:

I have tried to increase the presser foot tension, but no luck there...

I am going to assume you are using V69 thread. My  suggestion would be try a sample with the leather on top, 1/2" foam layer next and a sheet of ordinary paper on the bottom. If that works the paper can be torn off latter. Another suggestion would be to back off the presser foot tension so the material just moves rather then trying to compress it so much and use the largest leather needle you can get.

kgg

[mikesc]

You might try switching to titanium needles, and possibly ( depending on the suitability of the item that you are making ) using silicone lubricated thread, foam has a lot more frictional drag than leather, going up a needle size will help.

Yes ..adding a sheet of "tear off" ( stabiliser* ) paper on the bottom of the foam will help, it stops the lower surface of the foam getting dragged down with the needle and affecting the loop.There is a "tear off" paper sold for embroidery work ( to be nearest to the needle plate ) that will achieve the same effect..But lightweight copy paper ( 70 gsm ) will work, and is cheaper ,but the "tearing off" has to be done more carefully so as not to damage the foam or the stitches..If you can leave the paper on ( depends what you are sewing and what it is going to be used for ) then you can use "non woven" textile instead of paper, and leave it on ( it can be torn off , but again carefully ) the kind that is sold for wrapping plants against light frost works..even tissue paper ( the kind used for wrapping presents or delicate objects** ) works..experiment to find the most efficient, convenient.

* Can be bought on a roll, various widths and weights. colours etc.
**Very similar in some weights to stabiliser paper, but usually cheaper.

ps..you are aware that the Singer 4411 is just a domestic machine with "heavy duty" written on it ? The 105w motor is only very slightly more powerful than the "pot" ( 90w - 100w ) motors on many old cast iron machines..Many modern domestic machines have motors at around 100w..which is a long way off the 550w of a modern small ( there are larger , more powerful servo motors ) servo motor on an industrial..and everything on a true industrial ( and even on some of the older cast iron domestic Singers, and other Brands ) is much heavier duty .

Edited September 17, 2019 by mikesc
typo

[AusSimon]

Hi Mike,

Thank you so much for your in depth response. I truly appreciate it. This has really helped me understand how the sewing process works.

I will try a combination of all those things and let you know how I go. 

The foam that I am using is backed with fabric, should this not do the job of the paper?

And yeah, its not the best machine ever thats for sure. however I was just really surprised that it could sew the leather so nicely but then everything fell apart when I added some foam.

 

[mikesc]

Depends if the fabric backing is stiff enough, if it is flexible it will be "dipping" down with the needle as it comes out of the bottom of the foam and enters the hole in the needle plate..the friction in foam ( try running your hand across the surface of foam to feel the friction compared with fabric or lightweight ( 2 - 3oz leather, lambskin or similar ) ..can make it very awkward to sew.

If the bottom of your stitches when sewing leather alone is good enough, you could try sewing the "sandwich" upside down, the leather on the bottom, the foam in the middle, and the fabric backing on the top..You may well get a better loop for the hook to catch forming that way..worth a try..with foot pressure normal, and backed off a bit..

Draw guide lines ( if you try "upside down" sewing ) on the fabric to follow ( for your seams ) or on the paper if you try paper..You can also try painters masking tape ( the kind that peels off easily ) stuck along your seam lines, with your seam lines drawn on the tape..peel off the tape from the fabric when done.

Edited September 17, 2019 by mikesc

[AusSimon]

hey guys,

Just wanted to give you an update. I tried absolutely everything, paper on the bottom, titanium larger needles (the largest on my machine) lower the presser foot tension, teflot foot, walking foot, small holed foot, thinner thread on the bottom and top. 

It appears this machine is just not built to deal with such a situation. Which is completly understandable.

But i just want to thank you both again for your advice and help. I greatly appreciate it.

I am going to start scouring the internet (in Canada) for a used machine, see what I can come up with over the next week or so without breaking the bank too much. I have spotted a Consew 206RB-3 for $1000... any thoughts on if it is worth that money? I don't see many around for sale.

Cheers,

Simon

[Sturme]

how about bias tape or ribbon on the inside?

[AusSimon]

Hi Sturme, thank you for weighing in, but honestly I am just kind of over trying to make the machine do something it probably cant

[mikesc]

Ah well..they were all long shots..given a 4411 ..

Re the Consew 206RB-3..I've never used one..but ..
if you put the following line ( exactly like that "copy and paste" it into Google..

site:leatherworker.net Consew 206RB-3

You'll get all the times that Consew 206RB-3 was mentioned here..and someone who has actually experience with that model may be along to advise.. :)

Edited September 17, 2019 by mikesc

[kgg]

Question AusSimon what are you or planning on making? Since you have been using a 4411 with a degree of success moving up to a basic walking foot maybe all that you need. Example would be a basic portable walking foot like a new Reliable Barracuda (~$650 CA) or a new industrial walking foot like a Juki DU 1181 (~$1400 CA).

kgg

[AusSimon]

@mikesc thank you that was good advice.

@kgg that is a very good point, I did have a lot of success with the 4411 on think leathers and only really plan on using at most 2 layers of 4oz for 95% of projects.

I did test out a portable walking foot today actually and I think it was a Barra. But it scorched huge marks in the top of the leather. No idea how to prevent that.

I will look into the Juki you mentioned, i was previously looking at used 1541 and the RB206 that I mentioned. Will these be overkill for what I am doing? Space and budget are both a concern for a hobbiest like myself.

[kgg]

10 hours ago, AusSimon said:

But it scorched huge marks in the top of the leather. No idea how to prevent that.

If the presser foot has to much downward tension this can easily be adjusted by the presser foot tension knob. If the presser foot is too aggressive it can either be changed to a smoother foot or the teeth be filed smoother.

10 hours ago, AusSimon said:

I will look into the Juki you mentioned, i was previously looking at used 1541 and the RB206 that I mentioned. Will these be overkill for what I am doing? Space and budget are both a concern for a hobbiest like myself.

 I think for the thickness you mentioned the the Juki 1541, will do the job and give you the option of thicker materials in the future as it is compound feed (feed dog, presser foot and needle). I have to be careful with thinner materials with my Juki1541S and do the necessary adjustments to thread tensions and presser foot tension. That said it likes thicker stuff and will sew whatever I can stuff under the presser foot. The Consew 206RB-3 is I think a compound feed machine as well.  In my opinion given the choice between a Juki or a clone in the same mechanical shape I would pick the Juki. If you come across a used machine be prepared to put a servo motor on it for better sewing control, they are much quieter then a clutch motor and more energy efficient. 

kgg

 

[Konapaniolo]

Did you get your problem taken care of?  There are products available for what you are doing.  If you would like more info let me know.  Hate beating a dead horse if you got it figured out.  

[AusSimon]

Hey @Konapaniolo unfortunately not.  I have been lucky to find a leather school near me that is willing to let me borrow there machine for a few hours. I am on a crazy hunt for a used machine now that can handle this type of work.

[Konapaniolo]

AusSimon, You might try an upholstery shop.   We use a product called Skrim.  It comes in 1/4, 1/2 and 1 inch thicknesses.  Also 3 different compressions.   The thing about Skrim is that there is a netting or mesh that is laminated to the back side which is meant to hold a stitch and slide under the foot of the sewing machine.  I do know that my wife uses it at home with her sewing machine without any problems.  Yet, you will have to pull and, or assist the material and foam in because of the thickness.  It's not that the machine won't stitch it.  It is the fact that you need to help it through.  Do not change the tension on the thread but, loosen the foot pressure slightly.  It is a good idea that you look for a used machine.  Consew 206 series machines are great and you can usually find one for a few hundred dollars.  Good luck...

[nylonRigging]

Same/similar here as ( konapiaiola ) just said . I order in and use rolls of ' Skrim Back ' 1/4" and 1/2" high density pink . I have had a lot practice last few years with foam on a couple larger size items I sell .

( For Me ) .. I use a 'narrow foot' and knock down on the foot pressure to help lower foot friction and help move smoother . You still need to have hands-on and massage as you feed the panels threw, but it all goes pretty smooth .

Also all the panels I am sewing have a lining-inner panel  , So I do all my sewing Skim side up. just make all my stitch guard marks on the skrim side . the inner liner hides all my guild marks .

.

[AusSimon]

Hey guys,

Thank you so much for your advice, I was actually using skrim foam. I agree it is the perfect foam. 

I actually ended up picking up an old Consew 226R-1. it goes threw the foam and leather without skipping a beat. 

I know now I was just asking too much of a home use machine.