speed reducer

[LAPat]

When I was at Melanie, the guy showed me a speed reducer and said that he thought I would be sorry to install it myself. I can't imagine it being very difficult, although the size of the belt might be a little hard to guess at. The idea of dragging a machine and table to a shop is more daunting than mounting the thing myself. Is it really that big a deal?

Also, I seem to have little issue with getting the Pfaff to stitch quite slowly although it would certainly be easy to go from a crawl to warp speed if I didn't pay attention. Does anyone work without a speed reducer on an industrial like the Pfaff?

Thanks in advance.

L.A. Patricia

[greg gomersall]

I use a 1245 pfaff with no speed reducer for a table machine, if you can learn to feather the pedal you should get along fine. One thing I might suggest instead of a speed reducer is to replace the clutch motor with a Servo motor. You will have all the control you seek and it is a real simple switch out. Greg

[Art]

Hi Pat,

To do the job right, you need to put the reducer where the motor normally goes and then remount the motor. Tables usually come drilled for the motor, it has a standard mount and is always in the same place. When you tilt the machine to get underneath, you automatically loosen the belt, if you mount the speed reducer in any other postition, it nullifies this function and requires that you lift the needle end of the machine to disengage the belt. The speed reducer and an electric servo motor cost about the same give or take, it would be a whole lot easier to just swap motors (get a 500 watt (3/4hp) motor instead of the 400w (1/2hp) to make up for a little power loss). I understand what the guy is saying, if you do it right, YOU probably don't want to do it. If you have trouble understanding what I said above, then you really don't want to get into it. Just replace the motor, that's a simple wrench job.

Art

When I was at Melanie, the guy showed me a speed reducer and said that he thought I would be sorry to install it myself. I can't imagine it being very difficult, although the size of the belt might be a little hard to guess at. The idea of dragging a machine and table to a shop is more daunting than mounting the thing myself. Is it really that big a deal?

Also, I seem to have little issue with getting the Pfaff to stitch quite slowly although it would certainly be easy to go from a crawl to warp speed if I didn't pay attention. Does anyone work without a speed reducer on an industrial like the Pfaff?

Thanks in advance.

L.A. Patricia

[bruce johnson]

Pat,

I am a big fan of Melanie, Arnold has really treated me right. He has a great shop, and keeps the cleanest warehouse I have ever seen. Good source of advice too.

I have a 1245 (Ferdco's version) with a speed reducer and the servo motor. On slowest speed on the dial, it is a - g - o - n - i - z - i -n - g - l - y slow. Something like maybe 1 stitch per 5 seconds. I think this machine and motor combo could easily be run and controlled like Greg said with just the servo motor and no speed reducer. It will be set up soon that way for me.

I have another machine being shipped now that had a clutch motor and no speed reducer. I am going to take the speed reducer off the 1245 and use it on the second machine. I will just have to get a new servo motor for the new machine that way.

[esantoro]

Many people here are much more knowledgeable than I am, but I really like having both the servo motor and speed reducer.

With the servo motor turned low without a reducer, it seems that any machine would suffer a lack of true punching power.

Ed

Pat,

I am a big fan of Melanie, Arnold has really treated me right. He has a great shop, and keeps the cleanest warehouse I have ever seen. Good source of advice too.

I have a 1245 (Ferdco's version) with a speed reducer and the servo motor. On slowest speed on the dial, it is a - g - o - n - i - z - i -n - g - l - y slow. Something like maybe 1 stitch per 5 seconds. I think this machine and motor combo could easily be run and controlled like Greg said with just the servo motor and no speed reducer. It will be set up soon that way for me.

I have another machine being shipped now that had a clutch motor and no speed reducer. I am going to take the speed reducer off the 1245 and use it on the second machine. I will just have to get a new servo motor for the new machine that way.

[greg gomersall]

Servo motors have an adjustable reostat you can adjust your speed with built right into them so why would you need a speed reducer as well? These Servo motors are D.C. current not A.C. like a clutch motor. Greg

[bruce johnson]

Greg,

The servo motor on my 1245 has the rheostat dial to adjust speed control. I am pretty sure I can get away without the speed reducer and have just as much control. My wife uses the 1245 some, and is not intimidated by it like the 2000. She is a flatbed user from homesewing, and just is more at ease.

I originally got my first servo motor for the Adler 205, and it was a bigger motor than the one on the 1245. It didn't have a rheostat on it, but gave me much more range of slow speed control than the clutch motor I replaced, and also had about the same high end for straight runs. When I ordered the 2000, I got the servo motor and it also doesn't have the rheostat. I am not sure if the larger motors don't have the rheostat, or just the earlier larger servos Ferdco stocked a couple years ago. I like the control and speed I have right now on the 2000 with the speed reducer. The new machine I have coming is a 2000 as well, second hand. I haven't ordered the motor yet, waiting to have the machine in hand first. I will talk to Ron when I get it, and ask about a rheostat on the larger motors. If there isn't one, I will scab the speedreducer off the 1245, or see if someone has one in the "boneyard".

Ed,

I am not concerned about the lack of punching power with the servo motor. I haven't checked torques, but personal observations have borne this out. When I replaced the clutch motor on the Adler with servo I had to "relearn". If I reached up out of habit to the handwheel to help it around a corner stitching slow (as I had to do with the clutch motor at times for control) the servo motor would throw my hand off. Also if I have the speed dialed up on the 1245 and handwheel around a point, I can jerk my wrist if I step on the pedal a little too hard. Some mechanics say that the servos have a steady punch power slow or fast, and don't rely on momentum like clutch motors. Don't know.

[LAPat]

Can somebody explain a little more about servo versus clutch in terms of how power is supplied to the machine? I understand the feel of the clutch on the Pfaff, but do regular home machines have servo motors?

L.A. Pat

[Art]

Hi Pat,

Servo Motor produces full motor power at any speed since you can have a closed loop and Variable Frequency Drive and the Hall sensor to allow for as much or as little current as required to maintain the desired speed.

AC motors only have their power when running at the rated motor speed e.g. 1725 or 3450 rpm. Clutch motors run at rated speed and engage through a clutch when you push the pedal down. You can "feather" the clutch a bit like a car (except they work in opposite directions) but basically when the clutch is fully engaged the machine is running at full speed.

To way overly sinplify (and incorrectly to boot)

Servo = Automatic Transmission

Clutch = Manual Transmission.

The basic home sewing machine motor is (or used to be) an AC motor with a potentiometer foot control of various designs that varied the voltage. The only time you get full power is when the pedal is to the metal, anything under that drops the voltage and hence the power (power that you need for leather), it scrubs this power off as heat and that is why your foot control gets hot when you run the machine slow. This would not work well in an industrial situation and that is why industrial machines have a table with the motor underneath and full speed motors with plenty of power.

Since the 80s, you will occasionally see computer controlled DC motors on the higher end home sewing machines.

AC motor home machines just don't develop the power at lower speeds and are only really good for 6oz or less at slow speeds. Constant use on heavy leather (even if the machine head is built like a tank) will eventually toast the motor though. If you have one of those baklite button controllers, sew with your shoes on because slow speed running will get that thing hot enough to blister your tootsies.

Art

Can somebody explain a little more about servo versus clutch in terms of how power is supplied to the machine? I understand the feel of the clutch on the Pfaff, but do regular home machines have servo motors?

L.A. Pat

[Vwoodard]

Hi folks,

I just picked up the consew RB206rb-5 and was reading this thread. After using the machine with the clutch, even after adjusting the tension on the motor's arm that goes to the peddle, and playing with it, I find it just is too fast to control on the smaller pieces that I am doing. In regard to this message, I have a clarification question... when you say the Servo is more like an "Automatic Transmission", does the Treddle control act more as an on/off switch, with a fixed running speed set on the servo control adjustment, or do you still have speed adjustment like a gas peddle of the car, just more automatic?

Thanks,

Vince

Hi Pat,

Servo Motor produces full motor power at any speed since you can have a closed loop and Variable Frequency Drive and the Hall sensor to allow for as much or as little current as required to maintain the desired speed.

AC motors only have their power when running at the rated motor speed e.g. 1725 or 3450 rpm. Clutch motors run at rated speed and engage through a clutch when you push the pedal down. You can "feather" the clutch a bit like a car (except they work in opposite directions) but basically when the clutch is fully engaged the machine is running at full speed.

To way overly sinplify (and incorrectly to boot)

Servo = Automatic Transmission

Clutch = Manual Transmission.

The basic home sewing machine motor is (or used to be) an AC motor with a potentiometer foot control of various designs that varied the voltage. The only time you get full power is when the pedal is to the metal, anything under that drops the voltage and hence the power (power that you need for leather), it scrubs this power off as heat and that is why your foot control gets hot when you run the machine slow. This would not work well in an industrial situation and that is why industrial machines have a table with the motor underneath and full speed motors with plenty of power.

Since the 80s, you will occasionally see computer controlled DC motors on the higher end home sewing machines.

AC motor home machines just don't develop the power at lower speeds and are only really good for 6oz or less at slow speeds. Constant use on heavy leather (even if the machine head is built like a tank) will eventually toast the motor though. If you have one of those baklite button controllers, sew with your shoes on because slow speed running will get that thing hot enough to blister your tootsies.

Art

[Art]

Hi Vince,

The pedal varies the speed depending on how far it is depressed, however there are either a hi/lo speed switch and/or a knob you can adjust for the speed range, most have both now a days. Low speed control is pretty good no mater what the speed range; with everything on high and no speed reducer it will go like a scalded cat. With everything on low and a speed reducer it's slower than hand stitching.

Some of the variations had a reverse toggle on them; can't imagine that thing causing anything but trouble.

Art

Hi folks,

I just picked up the consew RB206rb-5 and was reading this thread. After using the machine with the clutch, even after adjusting the tension on the motor's arm that goes to the peddle, and playing with it, I find it just is too fast to control on the smaller pieces that I am doing. In regard to this message, I have a clarification question... when you say the Servo is more like an "Automatic Transmission", does the Treddle control act more as an on/off switch, with a fixed running speed set on the servo control adjustment, or do you still have speed adjustment like a gas peddle of the car, just more automatic?

Thanks,

Vince

[Artisan Dave]

Art,

Some industrial sewing machines (overlocks, etc) need the motor turning in the opposite direction.

Also, some of the folks who do not want to spend the bucks for a speed reducer should try a smaller pulley on the motor. The smaller the pulley, the slower their machine will turn. They probably have anything from a 2 1/2" all the way to a 3 1/2". Try a 2" or even smaller - there will be a noticeable difference.

[LAPat]

The smaller pulley is an idea, but if I were to get a servo, where is the best place to get one inexpensively?

Thanks

LA PAT

[Art]

Hi Pat,

This is a good motor:

http://www.allbrands.com/products/abp10568.html

If you get it, also get this smaller pully, and forget about a speed reducer:

http://www.allbrands.com/products/abp13843.html

Art

The smaller pulley is an idea, but if I were to get a servo, where is the best place to get one inexpensively?

Thanks

LA PAT

[Northmount]

The type of servo motors used on sewing machines follows the general rule for most motors.  The slower the motor goes, the less torque there is available.  So the idea for tough or thick leather is to use both a servo motor and a reduction pulley or gear reducer set.  The servo motor gives you easier speed control versus a clutch motor, and the speed reducer lets you run the motor at a higher speed so you will have the torque necessary to punch through that first stitch, or to crawl along at a stitch per second, or even slower depending on your setup.  I can go as slow as 7 seconds per stitch, but the high end speed is severely reduced.

Tom

 

[dikman]

For the reasons Tom has stated, I use speed reducers with two of my servos but on the third (the Pfaff) I fitted a much larger pulley in place of the handwheel, which gives the same effect as a speed reducer. Top speed is severely reduced, but that doesn't matter as I'm only interested in slow speed control.

As for the motor you linked to, it's pretty typical of most Chinese sewing machine servos - motor and mounting plate, linkage to the foot pedal and control box. The major difference between models/makes is usually how the settings are changed, some use two buttons, some use four. No reason that it shouldn't work. One difference that I just noticed is that it has a 12 mm shaft, most that I have seen have 15 mm shafts, no big deal but 15 mm seems to be the de-facto standard for shaft/pulley sizes. If you buy it make sure, if possible, that it is fitted with the smallest pulley size you can get (usually 2"/50 mm).

Edited November 1, 2016 by dikman

[brmax]

Whats your plan with reducer brands or builds, any over there particularly of interest.  I think with just that your going to be amazed.

fwiw I still use as a main machine a clutch motor, but it has the mitsibishi setup for positioning and will run circles around any positioner "here" but I don't have any efka stuff, I tend to have the music louder and talk louder working around that machine, but always happy

good day

Floyd

Edited November 2, 2016 by brmax

[TinkerTailor]

1 hour ago, Sticks said:

Ok thanks.

I will see what control I get with 40mm pulley on motor , reducer setup and elongated clutch lever..I do believe I will end up getting the servo though, however these initial changes wont be wasted as they will still add to the servo motor if acquired in the future.

 

As to your first question, the tysew motor appears to be a rebranded chinese motor based on the rest of their offerings. These rebranded motors can be either good and bad. Never heard of the tysew brand in particular, so i can not comment. I do know many on here have used the jack servo motors from  College-Sewing.co.uk  They can be a great resource to people who work on their own machines, as they have a ton of parts and accessories that can be hard to find. They have been used by others here with success. They also have efka motors, which are really pricey but apparently like switching from driving a trabant to a tesla.

The other thing I should meantion is the info in this particular thread is almost 10 tears old, while it is mostly correct, there is quite a bit of newer info on the motors on the market today floating around here. There are also several threads on custom motor and table setups people have built.

[Yetibelle]

Here is one way to get it done.

 

 

 

 

[TinkerTailor]

Notice the beeby-squeel from the motor in the video. Don't buy that one, I believe after watching it is a tysew.

[Northmount]

The noise/squeal of that motor would make me even crazier than I am already!

Tom

Chances are a diode or SCR is shorted out.  If so will cook the windings or some part of the circuit before long.  The squeal is similar to the sound of a shorted diode in an alternator.  Then the windings start to stink as it gets worse.

[TinkerTailor]

1 hour ago, northmount said:

The noise/squeal of that motor would make me even crazier than I am already!

Tom

Chances are a diode or SCR is shorted out.  If so will cook the windings or some part of the circuit before long.  The squeal is similar to the sound of a shorted diode in an alternator.  Then the windings start to stink as it gets worse.

I figured the cheap motor control circuit is struggling with the 50hz power in the uk, being designed for 60hz.

[Matt S]

On 01/11/2016 at 7:20 PM, Sticks said:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111721081685?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Does anyone have any experience with this motor.?

I always find it odd when people advise to use the servo INSTEAD of the reducer when most seem to use both together.

That suggests the servo (affordable ones) motors are missing something.?

Or is it me who is missing something.lol

I have that servo on my Adler 67. Works fine but there's not much gradiant to the pedal speed control. I have tweaked everything I can find and I only get two levels of speed within each speed setting.

[dikman]

I will have to disagree with you on this one, Sticks. My first machine had a clutch (of course) which scared the daylights out of me the first time I used it!! I made a larger handwheel pulley and made a speed reducer (modified a couple of times) in an attempt to control this beast, all to no avail. Yes, they slowed it down some, but I still had issues, and without fitting a gearbox(!) had reached the limit of a mechanical solution.  After reading about servos here (and finally figuring out what they were talking about) I bought one from Aliexpress, Chinese company, of course but with a warehouse here in Australia. Cost was $250 Aus, about $220 US. Best thing I bought, in fact I bought two more! No problems so far, and the control it gives me is awesome.

There is no way I would spend $1000 on a servo, not for my needs (and I'm pretty sure many will agree, it's a bit over-the-top for a hobbyist).

[Matt S]

12 hours ago, Sticks said:

I could be way off base with this observation,but from what I have read, there doesnt seem to be much point (unless you are buying a very expensive motor) in replacing a clutch with a servo motor.

I am guessing the caveat within the general mantra of 'replace your clutch with servo for much more control instantly' is that it must not cost less than 1000 dollars. 

Im sure someone can correct me on this.

Well the Adler 67-63 has a very small balance wheel and even with the smallest available pulley wheel, the old clutch motor (with very little clutch left) it would jump from a standstill to about 900SPM. I didn't want to fit a speed reducer because the end of my table is quite cramped. The cheap servo was a £90 drop-in part that allowed me to dial from 200RPM  (150-odd SPM) up to several thousand, which is useful for bobbin winding. I would like more of a gradient so I could throttle up and down on the fly (slower on the corners, faster down the long straights) without having to stop and adjust the speed but for the price I can't really complain.