English stirrup leather buckle - unusual?

[Xanthoria]

I bought a pair of Kieffer Dressage stirrup leathers that are a great design: simple loop at the stirrup bar, and one curved buckle at the bottom to adjust. Unlike other bottom buckle styles with conway buckles and leather casings, they are easy to adjust and can be "run up" for storage on the saddle easily.

One downside is the buckle tongue. Made of "wire" it's the same thickness around the "hinge" end of it where it attaches to the buckle. This leaves a nasty mark on your saddle flap if you shorten the stirrups enough that the buckle is above the edge of the flap. You can't see it in the image here but you can see the curve of the buckle.

Where can these be bought? Has anyone here had buckles custom made for them? Thoughts and suggestions? I'd like to recreate this design without adding a leather casing to protect the saddle - these wear out quickly and ride up unless secured.

 

[Goldshot Ron]

How are these attached to a saddle?  Does the stirrup go through the loop with the buckle, and the fixed loop go on the saddle's leather hanger; or visa-versa?

[Silverd]

Standard buckles can be curved using a press and simple form tooling. 

Silverd

[jcuk]

18 hours ago, Silverd said:

Standard buckles can be curved using a press and simple form tooling. 

Silverd

Be careful if you use this method it may damage the integrity of the buckles and weaken them.

 

Hope this helps

JCUK

[Dunluce]

You can get them at Abbey England

[Silverd]

10 minutes ago, jcuk said:

Be careful if you use this method it may damage the integrity of the buckles and weaken them.

 

Hope this helps

JCUK

If you were to use cheap pot metal plated buckles yes....not cast stainless steel.  Common place method of metal forming.

Silverd

[jcuk]

5 minutes ago, Silverd said:

If you were to use cheap pot metal plated buckles yes....not cast stainless steel.  Common place method of metal forming.

Silverd

You are maybe right but i always ere on the side of caution when making and repairing saddlery items especially something as vital as stirrup leathers.

JCUK

 

[Silverd]

27 minutes ago, jcuk said:

You are maybe right but i always ere on the side of caution when making and repairing saddlery items especially something as vital as stirrup leathers.

JCUK

 

I don't see them on the Abbey England site...

Silverd

[jcuk]

51 minutes ago, Dunluce said:

You can get them at Abbey England

 

2 minutes ago, Silverd said:

I don't see them on the Abbey England site...

Silverd

Had a look too didn't see them either but Abbey do bespoke but it will cost.

JCUK

 

[Dunluce]

You are right. I was sure I had seem them on there before.These have rollers but look a similar shape

https://www.artisanleather.co.uk/cast-nickel-plated-whole-roller-buckles.html

 

[fredk]

The closest I can see are these at Le Prevo

1. http://www.leprevo.co.uk/photos/315M-20.htm

2. http://www.leprevo.co.uk/photos/0508M-15.htm

[Silverd]

seems reasonable...

 

Silverd

[Xanthoria]

On 4/21/2020 at 3:05 PM, Goldshot Ron said:

How are these attached to a saddle?  Does the stirrup go through the loop with the buckle, and the fixed loop go on the saddle's leather hanger; or visa-versa?

The small plain loop at one end slides over the stirrup bar on the saddle: nice and flat under your thigh. The buckle end, with stirrup attached within the other loop shown, hangs down. You can adjust by moving the buckle up and down BUT when shortened enough for the buckle to lay on top of the saddle flap, the back side of the tongue's attachment to the buckle rubs a groove in the flap. Bad design. There's a final additional hole in the leathers up near the stirrup bar loop so you can run them up for storage.

[Xanthoria]

Thanks for the links and suggestions for other buckles! Now, the problem from what I can see is:

1. none of them would prevent the main issue I am having - the buckle tongue rubbing a groove in the saddle flap

2. some of them look to be brass - I consider this a weak metal and would prefer steel. Am I wrong? Or is brass OK? According to this site the tensile strength for steel is 460-1100- megapascals (MPa) vs brass at 325-625 MPa: https://structx.com/Material_Properties_003a.html

Silverd that's the one. Where are they available? Perhaps I just need to design a way to stop the tongue ruining the saddle flap after all....

[Silverd]

53 minutes ago, Xanthoria said:

Thanks for the links and suggestions for other buckles! Now, the problem from what I can see is:

1. none of them would prevent the main issue I am having - the buckle tongue rubbing a groove in the saddle flap

2. some of them look to be brass - I consider this a weak metal and would prefer steel. Am I wrong? Or is brass OK? According to this site the tensile strength for steel is 460-1100- megapascals (MPa) vs brass at 325-625 MPa: https://structx.com/Material_Properties_003a.html

Silverd that's the one. Where are they available? Perhaps I just need to design a way to stop the tongue ruining the saddle flap after all....

I'm not an expert on this topic but I've made-up many stirrup leathers for clients and they have been happy with them so far.  I use Cast Stainless Steel Buckles in 1" and 1/1/8" wide from Abbey England along with their Stirrup Butt leather and Spun wound Poly Cotton thread.  Stirup butt is tanned specially to reduce stretch under high loading conditions. The Spun Wound thread is designed not to abrade and both are more expensive but both are very tough and I think work very well compared to the more popular straps today that are a composite design.  Today, most stirrup leathers sold in USA use a nylon strength member sewn between two layers of skirting or bridle leather.  The solid Stirrup Butt approach is traditional where as the nylon core is modern... Which I suggest is less costly.   Most of the leathers I sell are to replace nylon core style leathers that have abraded from the inside out.

As for the buckle I photo shared, it is an Abbey England Stainless Steel buckle in 1" that I quickly formed using simple tooling in my shop.  I did not purchase it in this form.   I  don't believe the stress of deforming the material into this shape will cause a problem with the material failing under load since the cast steel is quite malleable.  If you consider the actual loads your stirrup leathers see they are not that high actually.

For a rider that weighs 200 lbs and a 3g peak load = 600lbs.  There are two sides so you can say divide the 600lbs by 2 = 300lbs per side.  Convert to metric if needed.  

Re Preventing the tongue tip of the buckle from digging into the underside of the flap.  I would suggest that you look closely at the curved buckle as the way I see it a flat buckle may present more stress on the strap but I think has less profile which should translate into less protrusion of the tip into the underside flap.  This is suggesting that sacrificing the stirrup leather is better than damaging the flap.   Sanding the Tip down a bit to remove the sharp point I see on some might also help.

 I also think it would be something that could be prevented by using similar guard as is used on the Billet straps.  This is not a conventional solution and will add a bit more bump to the flap on the outside as a result but will protect the flap.  Make the guard from thin leather and replace it as needed.   

Hope this helps!

 

Silverd

[LumpenDoodle2]

Just to say, I think leprovo may still be closed.    Might be worth checking on the website.

[fredk]

43 minutes ago, LumpenDoodle2 said:

Just to say, I think leprovo may still be closed.    Might be worth checking on the website.

Still closed but answering email enquiries

[LumpenDoodle2]

8 minutes ago, fredk said:

Still closed but answering email enquiries

Do you think they will send some hides out to me as an attachment?

[Xanthoria]

3 hours ago, Silverd said:

Re Preventing the tongue tip of the buckle from digging into the underside of the flap.  I would suggest that you look closely at the curved buckle as the way I see it a flat buckle may present more stress on the strap but I think has less profile which should translate into less protrusion of the tip into the underside flap.  This is suggesting that sacrificing the stirrup leather is better than damaging the flap.   Sanding the Tip down a bit to remove the sharp point I see on some might also help.

 I also think it would be something that could be prevented by using similar guard as is used on the Billet straps.  This is not a conventional solution and will add a bit more bump to the flap on the outside as a result but will protect the flap.  Make the guard from thin leather and replace it as needed.  

Thanks Silverd! Agree on the weight/force. Tho I have seen solid brass halter hardware break and the rest (nylon) stay intact, so I always want solid brass hardware because it will break. Of course, a horse is a LOT stronger than me

The part of the buckle that's digging into the flap is actually not the tip, but the heel end of the tongue at the back, where it attaches to the buckle bar. But again I can see a piece of leather there helping to prevent this - was hoping to preserve the simplicity of the design and find a buckle that doesn't stick out in that area quite so much!

Agree on the wrapped leathers. And in fact any tack wrapped or covered in a thin piece of leather - totally prone to wear out. I'd rather swap my leathers over to a different side and have them stretch evenly than have to buy new leathers every couple years.

 

[fivewayswelshcobs]

Have you looked at the T bar stirrup leathers, instead of a buckle there is a T bar fitting , when in use a cover slides down over the fitting to help protect the saddle. Abbey sell the fittings. 

I've not used them but many people do to reduce the bulk under the leg.

[Xanthoria]

16 hours ago, fivewayswelshcobs said:

Have you looked at the T bar stirrup leathers, instead of a buckle there is a T bar fitting , when in use a cover slides down over the fitting to help protect the saddle. Abbey sell the fittings. 

I've not used them but many people do to reduce the bulk under the leg.

I've got two pairs of stirrups like that and they're OK, but the holes tend to wear out very quickly because they're inserted in a thin layer of leather. Buckled ones last a lot longer, which is why I love the Kieffer ones I bought. They just have this one design flaw...

[Silverd]

On 4/27/2020 at 12:57 PM, Silverd said:

I'm not an expert on this topic but I've made-up many stirrup leathers for clients and they have been happy with them so far.  I use Cast Stainless Steel Buckles in 1" and 1/1/8" wide from Abbey England along with their Stirrup Butt leather and Spun wound Poly Cotton thread.  Stirup butt is tanned specially to reduce stretch under high loading conditions. The Spun Wound thread is designed not to abrade and both are more expensive but both are very tough and I think work very well compared to the more popular straps today that are a composite design.  Today, most stirrup leathers sold in USA use a nylon strength member sewn between two layers of skirting or bridle leather.  The solid Stirrup Butt approach is traditional where as the nylon core is modern... Which I suggest is less costly.   Most of the leathers I sell are to replace nylon core style leathers that have abraded from the inside out.

As for the buckle I photo shared, it is an Abbey England Stainless Steel buckle in 1" that I quickly formed using simple tooling in my shop.  I did not purchase it in this form.   I  don't believe the stress of deforming the material into this shape will cause a problem with the material failing under load since the cast steel is quite malleable.  If you consider the actual loads your stirrup leathers see they are not that high actually.

For a rider that weighs 200 lbs and a 3g peak load = 600lbs.  There are two sides so you can say divide the 600lbs by 2 = 300lbs per side.  Convert to metric if needed.  

Re Preventing the tongue tip of the buckle from digging into the underside of the flap.  I would suggest that you look closely at the curved buckle as the way I see it a flat buckle may present more stress on the strap but I think has less profile which should translate into less protrusion of the tip into the underside flap.  This is suggesting that sacrificing the stirrup leather is better than damaging the flap.   Sanding the Tip down a bit to remove the sharp point I see on some might also help.

 I also think it would be something that could be prevented by using similar guard as is used on the Billet straps.  This is not a conventional solution and will add a bit more bump to the flap on the outside as a result but will protect the flap.  Make the guard from thin leather and replace it as needed.   

Hope this helps!

 

Silverd

I can mail you a couple of the bent buckles.  I have them in 1.0" and 1 1/8"  wide I believe...Or I can make you a custom set of leathers with these buckles from the English Stirrup Butt.   

Silverd