Advice needed for working with Lin Cable (linen thread)

[NeilMott]

For nearly all my projects, I have been using Tiger thread.  Tried Maine but it was way too waxy.  I wanted to find a bronze thread and between me being partially colorblind (green/blue which basically messes up how I see a lot of nuanced colors) and a limited selection of threads that are actually called bronze, I bought some 332 (0.77 mm) Lin Cable from RM Leather.  

 

My impressions of Lin Cable is that it doesn't feel waxed.  So before using it, I ran it over some beeswax twice.  It definitely feels like cord....yes, yes, I know it is... just a way different feel in hand than Tiger.    First issue I ran into was having to use a bigger needle than I prefer.  Even with 0.8mm Tiger thread, I am able to use the smallest John James needle, size 4 (004).   I don't think that can be avoided... When I pierce the thread and pull over the eye to create the knot, it can be bulky.   One issue is that after stitching the long part of a watch strap, by the end the thread comes apart and I have to re-lock the thread.  On one strap, I pierced the thread twice to avoid this, but it was more of a pain when stitching to pull 2 knots through a hole.  

 

The other issue I'd like some advice on his burning the ends of the thread once I nip the ends after my strap is stitched.  My Bic lighter just wasn't doing it, and I did singe the leather at first.  I heated up a nail and used that, but it was awkward to use.  I found this thread burner on another post here (can't believe I didn't know these existed before!) and wondered if it'd be good for linen thread:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F9KMY2T/?coliid=I1F0NU3H28O3TJ&colid=L1VMVJAQOMGL&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

or this 

https://www.amazon.com/Beadsmith-TZ1400-Thread-Zap-Ultra/dp/B00W234YSW/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=thread+burner&qid=1598198671&sr=8-4

If you have any advice on using Lin Cable (because I do have a good amount of it now!) and how to address the above issues, I'd love to hear it!  If you have a source of bronze synthetic thread, that'd be great too.  I did see the synthetic non-waxed  Supersew bronze thread at Fine Leatherworking, but I wasn't a major fan of that line of thread (I have some similar MBT thread).  

Best,

Neil

[zuludog]

Some thread is ready waxed, and some isn't. AFAIK Tiger is waxed, but you must wax Fil au Chinois/Lin Cable yourself

I'd have thought that 0,8mm or 332 thread is a bit thick for watch straps, but I suppose it depends if you want a chunky look or not. Yes I expect it would be difficult to thread a #004 needle with 332, so your choice would be to use a bigger needle like #002 or thinner thread, like 532 or even 632; and 0,6mm Tiger thread, which is a fairly standard diameter for leatherwork

If you are using 332 it could be that it is too thick for the holes, and rubbing on the inside of the holes, causing it to fray. Synthetic thread is less susceptible to this

For threading a needle you can taper the end of the thread - either cut it on a slant so there's just a narrow point to insert into the eye at first. Or lay the thread on your cutting mat and gently scrape the end 5mm or so of the thread with the tip of a knife to feather it. Then wax it again and work it into a point and thread the eye as usual

Tiger thread is synthetic, so you trim the ends and heat them which shrinks and balls up the end of the thread so the cut ends more or less vanish, and the ball prevents the thread from undoing

But linen thread is a natural fibre!. All that will happen if you heat it with a flame is that it will burn. The technique with linen thread is to backstitch 2 or 2 1/2 stitches and the friction keeps it in place - JH Leather shows this on several of her videos. In fact she seems to use linen thread for most of her work - FauC and others; watch her videos and you'll see how it's used

Search YT for 'thread for leatherwork', there are several videos, including one by Ian Atkinson where he compares Tiger & FauC

Incidentally I have used both the linen and synthetic 'Twist' thread from RMLS and they're both excellent. They are the Chinese Yue Fung thread sold under their own label

If you have problems with colours, why not tell the supplier what you want and ask them for something that matches - after all, it is in their interest to help you

[NeilMott]

Hey Zulu.

I appreciate the in-depth reply!   Lin Cable does say it's waxed but just not a lot.  I was waxing it and trying to smooth it, to thread the 002 needles I was using.  It did help a lot.  

When I was stitching I noticed a tiny bit of fraying, but not a lot.  I meant to post pics of the watch strap I made and will do so here.  I usually backstitch one stitch, then singe the thread on the other side.  I guess if I keep using this linen thread, I will try to backstitch further.  I'm using 3.85mm Crimson Hide Japanese style stitching irons and find 0.8mm Tiger thread to be about right.  I've used 0.6mm Tiger and that usually looks good too.  I haven't tried the Twist thread b/c it's smaller than I usually like.   

I have also thought about using the Galaces thread, which another strap maker friend uses.  Here is my US ebay source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/150D-0-8mm-284Yards-36-color-Flat-Waxed-Thread-Leather-Hand-Sewing-Stiching-Cord/183534785162?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2abb86928a:g:T54AAOSwUu5b9Ny0&enc=AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickk8Fd9si%2FIbtWQr%2BhnlRwjDdLGsyQ2ZRBHbqdBxVTpgjMASe%2FwZX6HU3fZYwFNX9MJwtDtTvpaQn5zUHBV%2BbjiQvesTrw7p2g1x3XdNndTEZM5CNDb0DIkM2DplkyaNVX69XENq8BGeQu0iQTsNuM9L33WlpsvWhL8K%2F062%2FYyv%2FRNdFvssZ4bis%2BRpHunCzUG18YlvzV9ZTJwt3oBZiLDNVCQQrTOlPAvo2VtFrbW65FxRuHcarSVoNU6AWTGWyogYPbS3smJakAm7L4sHQkZSHfzcZyZsrPlm%2Fm6kCe7MqPc2hm3Zg6bhEr01su90Vq0UQMAC8bHv8cz7SXGzo%2BN4gKZYAUhE8a10ZjzJfWG5Xf3jrjmGC9Wb16HVQu1WAMEjqcysiGKVj3tY%2B8Hz%2Bl3Jh5KRxG6TQQwbY%2Fldtr7AnKvM9rw0hYLpWTcZeFGkQmiGmK2iBYyTlE1QLcwNCZium2kTiiQuRsd3zbUylJlixw7kPraAvANisbp8g3vqQ1wBgtv2Q0K4ypbKwtg2bZV7h%2FLzMfuWonwIQ4oO6RLiLMyOhGze58QmRyY0c4PtO5wgsFw66FxDZl%2BWsG6MSPRFw4uYgE6apbUHN0hKz%2BbZHVboixrmsK3eBmF%2B0llg12zL20FVtH4R5YHMbVPkfOamQRjSEtUlpdVzvQ4qQgMRITpQ%2FVpHgKGdn3UYGBurSVr02IDE7YytqXBht3G4yu%2BQWeKcfOoe5a5ZaYNl3r%2FBZW8f267PN5jdAbmmKe2hk%2FacBx9JQ09UMsHVaxsEkUl1Q%3D%3D&checksum=1835347851629e33fb7b73bd4a1dae3d7e9fd91f6134

The caramel and caramel1 look pretty close to bronze...

Here's the watch strap:

[billybopp]

As mentioned by @zuludog Tiger thread is a synthetic, and will melt when heated which gives a good way to end a line of stitching:  Linen thread is natural and will just burn, so has to be finished differently.  Many folks will leave a small section between the edge of two pieces of leather un-glued, and put a knot in their thread between the pieces then glue after sewing is completed.  Others will fully glue, backstitch/overstitch their thread, cut it really close and put a dab of white glue on the ends to hold it.

Tiger thread is a woven polyester while linen is a twisted thread, so they do behave differently, as you've found particularly where locking the thread to the needle is concerned.  Make sure to leave a considerably longer tail with linen and after locking it to your needles wax the daylights out of it to hold it together.  A little white glue might to the trick there as well, but I've never tried that.  Make sure, too, that when you lock your thread, you do that a couple of inches down from the eye of the needle (no matter what kind of thread you are using!): It makes getting the knots through the hole far easier than when it's all bunched up at the eye of the needle.

As for wax, you'll find that Tiger is super-saturated with wax:  Far more than even other braided polyesters.  That makes it so nice to sew with, but it also means that for a given size it is a little plumper.  0.6mm Tiger is more like 0.8mm for most other waxed braided polyester threads.  Most other waxed braided polyesters can benefit from some additional wax rubbed on it before sewing, and the same is true for Linen thread.

Hope that helps, and the strap looks really good BTW - and your sewing looks perfect!

- Bill

Edited August 24, 2020 by billybopp

[mike02130]

Tiger is flatish vs round.  Meisi thread seems to be very popular these days.  They have a good selection of colors.

[Danne]

17 minutes ago, mike02130 said:

Tiger is flatish vs round.  Meisi thread seems to be very popular these days.  They have a good selection of colors.

And Meisi have also started to sell in sample size which is awesome to be able to buy the most common colors you use in full spools, and all the other colors in small size. Perfect for watch strap makers. 

http://meisi108.com/product-17210-45255-86612.html

[toxo]

On 8/23/2020 at 5:12 PM, NeilMott said:

My impressions of Lin Cable is that it doesn't feel waxed.  So before using it, I ran it over some beeswax twice.  It definitely feels like cord....yes, yes, I know it is... just a way different feel in hand than Tiger.    First issue I ran into was having to use a bigger needle than I prefer.  Even with 0.8mm Tiger thread, I am able to use the smallest John James needle, size 4 (004).   I don't think that can be avoided... When I pierce the thread and pull over the eye to create the knot, it can be bulky.   One issue is that after stitching the long part of a watch strap, by the end the thread comes apart and I have to re-lock the thread.  On one strap, I pierced the thread twice to avoid this, but it was more of a pain when stitching to pull 2 knots through a hole.  

Have you ever tried not doing the knot thing. I gave up doing that and find it much better just to thread it and leave it. It doesn't pull through in my experience and it means on long runs I can pull a lot more of the loose end through thus shortening the amount to pull through and also means that as I get near the end I can alter the length thus changing the part thatsitting in the eye which eliminates wear just at one point on the thread. I appreciate that this might mean more thread in the hole but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

[zuludog]

4 hours ago, toxo said:

Have you ever tried not doing the knot thing. I gave up doing that and find it much better just to thread it and leave it. It doesn't pull through in my experience and it means on long runs I can pull a lot more of the loose end through thus shortening the amount to pull through and also means that as I get near the end I can alter the length thus changing the part thatsitting in the eye which eliminates wear just at one point on the thread. I appreciate that this might mean more thread in the hole but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that, thanks for the reminder

For years, before I became interested in leatherwork I repaired tents & rucsacs, and I just put the thread through the eye of the needle and that was that

Soon after I became interested I went on a leatherworking course and was shown the usual method of threading a saddler's needle, piercing the thread, and locking it. I tried it for a while afterwards, but decided it was too fiddly, so I went back to just a simple pass through the eye

As Toxo mentions, you can vary the length of working thread (is that the correct term? I'm sure you'll know what I mean) and the tail to make longer or shorter pulls through the work; and also spread out the wear on the thread caused by the eye. Waxed thread grips well, and fills the eye so the needle doesn't often slip off the  thread of its own accord

I don't tie a knot in the end of the thread; I just do a bit of backstitching or overstitching at the start. With linen thread it's held in place by friction, and with synthetic I heat seal the end of the thread after I've trimmed it

[NeilMott]

Hey everyone.  

Thank you so much for the input.  I just stitched a very small amount on a nato watch strap and like my other strap, I trim the thread after backstitching but I just don't like that I can't seal the thread.  I do back stitch using Tiger as well, but prefer to seal the thread and I think it's also a cleaner look.  Even if I trim the linen thread close it still sticks out a hair.  I'd rather not put glue on it, but it seems I must.  I did find some polyester thread from Fine Leatherworking that is bronze.  It's not waxed but I can do that, and it'll seal when I'm done.  I may go that route.  I just hate buying the wrong product... but so goes this "hobby"!

Best,

Neil

[jcuk]

I use curved scissors to cut my thread find it gets you a tiny bit closer to the work, then i use my awl to poke the trimmed thread back into the stitch marks works ok  i work with linen thread 99% of the time depends on what i working on for belts and things like that i go back 2 and a half stitches, 3 and a half for my main work which is horse tack making and repairing. Also do not piece the thread either never  have in 25 plus years. 

 

Hope this helps

JCUK

[Danne]

18 hours ago, zuludog said:

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that, thanks for the reminder

For years, before I became interested in leatherwork I repaired tents & rucsacs, and I just put the thread through the eye of the needle and that was that

Soon after I became interested I went on a leatherworking course and was shown the usual method of threading a saddler's needle, piercing the thread, and locking it. I tried it for a while afterwards, but decided it was too fiddly, so I went back to just a simple pass through the eye

As Toxo mentions, you can vary the length of working thread (is that the correct term? I'm sure you'll know what I mean) and the tail to make longer or shorter pulls through the work; and also spread out the wear on the thread caused by the eye. Waxed thread grips well, and fills the eye so the needle doesn't often slip off the  thread of its own accord

I don't tie a knot in the end of the thread; I just do a bit of backstitching or overstitching at the start. With linen thread it's held in place by friction, and with synthetic I heat seal the end of the thread after I've trimmed it

Also a tip, take some white glue (not contact cement based) regular white glue is better, and I still have a five year old small bottle I mainly use for this purpose and for layered paddings where I skive through the glue. take a round awl and push in some white glue in the hole after back stitching. You can also put some glue on the thread loops right before you pull the last backstitch tight. It's quick and add that little extra bond. 

[NeilMott]

Great tips everyone.  I use Aquilim 315 which is a white contact cement, but I shouldn't use that right?  What would be the disadvantage of using that?  It's a contact cement, but it does have some give if you don't let it tack up first.  If not, I'll have to track down some white glue.  

Best,

Neil

[Danne]

29 minutes ago, NeilMott said:

Great tips everyone.  I use Aquilim 315 which is a white contact cement, but I shouldn't use that right?  What would be the disadvantage of using that?  It's a contact cement, but it does have some give if you don't let it tack up first.  If not, I'll have to track down some white glue.  

Best,

Neil

Aquilim 315 is an awesome glue, and very strong. You get an instant bond (No need to clamp like with regular white glue) just like with solvent based contact cement, and it gets stronger after curing a couple of days. But when I put a little bit of glue on the thread after back stitching I prefer a regular white glue. 

In which situations do you need a solvent based glue? If you glue synthetic materials, or oily/waxy leathers especially with edges without stitching. Renia also have a product (hardener) for 315 if you want to use it with waxy/oily leather, I haven't tried it though 

http://www.renia.com/tech_D_G/552-D_G.tech.pdf

Also if you make layered paddings (glue layers of leathers together and skive through them) a white glue is better, because it's a hard to skive through 315 because the knife tends to get stuck.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Danne

[NeilMott]

So, here's what I did on this nato strap.  I backstitched and pulled the thread through almost all the way.  I put a dab of Aquilim (I didn't have any glue or patience to wait a day) in the hole, then pulled the thread through.  

I then snipped the thread.  I'd like to have backstitched the hole thing, but I wanted to try to maintain the look of a single thread through most of the middle stitching, as I think it looks better.  But on the back, even with a decent set of snippers you have see the ends...

People have said to add a dab of glue and kinda push them back in, but it seems like I'd be pushing the thread out the other side, or make it loose...

[Danne]

13 minutes ago, NeilMott said:

So, here's what I did on this nato strap.  I backstitched and pulled the thread through almost all the way.  I put a dab of Aquilim (I didn't have any glue or patience to wait a day) in the hole, then pulled the thread through.  

I then snipped the thread.  I'd like to have backstitched the hole thing, but I wanted to try to maintain the look of a single thread through most of the middle stitching, as I think it looks better.  But on the back, even with a decent set of snippers you have see the ends...

People have said to add a dab of glue and kinda push them back in, but it seems like I'd be pushing the thread out the other side, or make it loose...

In a construction like that you also have another good solution, just double loop around the edge when you finish and push the needles out between the layers of leather and make a knot or two between the leather. I think you understand but I google to see if I find an example. 

Like this the only difference is that you will of course go in and out with the needle/thread from the sides in the space beside your metal keepers.

https://www.instructables.com/id/Leather-NATO-Watch-Strap/

[NeilMott]

Wow, a lightbulb just went off!!  Thank you!  I don't often think about tucking the thread inside the strap like that because 95% of the time, I make regular 2 piece watch straps.  I will give it a try tonight and update you.   

[Danne]

34 minutes ago, NeilMott said:

Wow, a lightbulb just went off!!  Thank you!  I don't often think about tucking the thread inside the strap like that because 95% of the time, I make regular 2 piece watch straps.  I will give it a try tonight and update you.   

It's possible on lined watch straps too, but requires a little bit more planning when gluing things together. I haven't tried it, but I usually take screenshots when I see solutions I like. 

 

[NeilMott]

That's really cool.  More and more I'm doing some minimal stitching, so it's great to see it done on two piece watch straps.  Here is the stitching all done.  I forgot to take a picture of the back.  I tied the ends into a double knot then tucked it into the inside near the keeper.  I added a dab of Aquilim contact cement as well.  Because I'm using 332 Lin Cable (0.77mm) the knot was kinda big.  But I don't think it'll be noticeable.  I think I could still do the same thing with the polyester bronze thread I ordered, but could seal the thread on the inside with the thread burner I just bought.  That'd be nice too.