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DonInReno

Offer up? ...and 441 clones

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This is somewhat of a weird question, but has anyone had good results buying industrials off of the Offer Up app?    I didn’t even know it was worth looking at, but while looking for Ferdco pro 2000 examples ran across a sold juki 441 that went for $900!   I’ll take a dozen at that price and condition!   Lol

Right now there are three pro 2000 Ferdco 441 machines (not juki) on Craigslist in Washington.    From the looks of them they were rode hard and probably not worth more than the asking price, but under those cute flat accessory plates are cylinder arm 441 clones for $1400.

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DF0B3A51-04C9-42B1-96B2-76D157BE34C6.jpeg

Edited by DonInReno

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@DonInReno, I  bought that Juki/Ferdco you have in your top photo from OfferUp. It was like new. The listing said it was in Kansas. I made contact with the owner and found out she was in Port Orford, WA. The listing was over 6 months old when I found it and the deal was touch and go for a few days. I ended up sweetening  the pot by giving her a Pfaff 138 I had laying around with the $900. I had $150 in the Pfaff. I drove up and back in one very long day but it was worth it. That is the only deal I found on OfferUp. 

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7 hours ago, JJN said:

@DonInReno, I  bought that Juki/Ferdco you have in your top photo from OfferUp. It was like new. The listing said it was in Kansas. I made contact with the owner and found out she was in Port Orford, WA. The listing was over 6 months old when I found it and the deal was touch and go for a few days. I ended up sweetening  the pot by giving her a Pfaff 138 I had laying around with the $900. I had $150 in the Pfaff. I drove up and back in one very long day but it was worth it. That is the only deal I found on OfferUp. 

How interesting - I always enjoy the backstory of something like that and it’s great that you got it!  It looks very clean

I was surprised to hear the 20-something crowd talking so highly about offer up - our youngest absolutely loves it.    It must be the newness of it...maybe only old people use Craigslist?  Lol   The usage statistics compared to Marketplace and Craigslist are quite low, but there have been a few very low prices.   I haven’t enjoyed the clunky search feature and gave up rather quickly on it.

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Buying from Offer Up shouldn't be any different than buying from CL, FB or any other type of classified, as it is just another way to put buyers in contact with sellers. It is still ultimately the buyers responsibility to do their homework to make sure they are getting what they are paying for, in working order or not. JJN found my Ferdco Pro 2000 on CL for me (still can't thank him enough), and like him, I spent a good part of a day driving up and back to pick it up. It's an awesome machine, and I love it even more now that I put a servo motor on it.  As far as those Ferdcos go, $1,400 for a 441 clone with a 16 inch arm, looks like a great deal, even if they were ridden hard and put away wet.  

Ferdinand, aptly named his 441 clone the Super Bull, as it will plow through anything you throw at it.  I believe that the model shown is actually the Pro 2000HHFB.  HH - Super High Lift, and FB = Flat Bed.  The Pro 2000HHFB sold complete (stand, motor, speed reducer, and accessory kit) for $7,095 when it was released in 2000. There is the standard 2000, the high lift 2000H and the super high lift 2000HH. The standard will sew through 3/4 inch, so it makes me wonder what the H and the HH will sew through. Considering most 441 clones max out at a sewing height of 3/4 inch, that makes these HH at $1,400 even a better deal if they are still sewing.  My only concern, is that on my Pro 2000, I have to have the Presser Spring Regulator backed out almost all the way, so as not to mark up my leather with the walking foot.  The one in the picture show has the Regulator cranked down almost all the way down. If I was in a few hour drive of the area and needed/wanted a 441 clone, I would go look at them.

Edited by RemingtonSteel

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Yeah I picked up one of those ferdcos, it operates smooth so far but they all have the clutch motor on them. The guy now has 2 left, they were from a place that was stitching tow straps and such. Hoffman has all the parts you would need to get it fixed up if needed, but parts are also fairly readily available through Leather machine co, or Juki. I am happy that I pulled the trigger, just need to figure out this table situation.

On 4/3/2021 at 5:16 PM, DonInReno said:

Right now there are three pro 2000 Ferdco 441 machines (not juki) on Craigslist in Washington.    From the looks of them they were rode hard and probably not worth more than the asking price, but under those cute flat accessory plates are cylinder arm 441 clones for $1400.

 

DF0B3A51-04C9-42B1-96B2-76D157BE34C6.jpeg

 

 

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On 4/5/2021 at 10:29 AM, RemingtonSteel said:

Buying from Offer Up shouldn't be any different than buying from CL, FB or any other type of classified, as it is just another way to put buyers in contact with sellers. It is still ultimately the buyers responsibility to do their homework to make sure they are getting what they are paying for, in working order or not. JJN found my Ferdco Pro 2000 on CL for me (still can't thank him enough), and like him, I spent a good part of a day driving up and back to pick it up. It's an awesome machine, and I love it even more now that I put a servo motor on it.  As far as those Ferdcos go, $1,400 for a 441 clone with a 16 inch arm, looks like a great deal, even if they were ridden hard and put away wet.  

Ferdinand, aptly named his 441 clone the Super Bull, as it will plow through anything you throw at it.  I believe that the model shown is actually the Pro 2000HHFB.  HH - Super High Lift, and FB = Flat Bed.  The Pro 2000HHFB sold complete (stand, motor, speed reducer, and accessory kit) for $7,095 when it was released in 2000. There is the standard 2000, the high lift 2000H and the super high lift 2000HH. The standard will sew through 3/4 inch, so it makes me wonder what the H and the HH will sew through. Considering most 441 clones max out at a sewing height of 3/4 inch, that makes these HH at $1,400 even a better deal if they are still sewing.  My only concern, is that on my Pro 2000, I have to have the Presser Spring Regulator backed out almost all the way, so as not to mark up my leather with the walking foot.  The one in the picture show has the Regulator cranked down almost all the way down. If I was in a few hour drive of the area and needed/wanted a 441 clone, I would go look at them.

That's good info on the lettering, I was wondering what that all meant. These are cylinder machines, but they are just permanently mounted in these flatbed tables. Is that what the HHFB was? Or was it a true flatbed? And the presser foot thing your mentioning was probably due to their lack of concern sewing the webbing, not leather. I am no sewing machine guru..yet. I was definitely of the school of thought that these are some hardy machines and being a 441 clone, they are fixable.

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That’s awesome - glad someone we know was able to pick one up!

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3 hours ago, connerh04 said:

These are cylinder machines, but they are just permanently mounted in these flatbed tables. Is that what the HHFB was?

Conner congrats on the purchase! From looking at the literature I have, Ferdco only lists the HH in the Pro 2000HHFB package which listed for $7,095, but you could get the head only for $6,545.  I don't see a Pro 2000HH package which would have been mounted on a table like the standard 2000 or the 2000H. So either someone purchased the head only and built their own flatbed table (not likely), or I would say that you what you do indeed have is the Pro 2000HHFB with the original table.  I don't think Ferdco would have put on the FB decal (even if there was enough room) as one, it is self evident, and two, it has no bearing on that actual head itself.  If you are going to be sewing items without contours to it (fairly flat items), stick with the flatbed for now, as you can always remount it down the road if that situation changes.

Curious, did you get any attachments with it, like a holster or stirrup plate, different feet, roller guide, etc?  Also, I would really be interested in knowing the capacity of the HH.  If you put the needle in the top most position, and using the foot pedal to raise the presser foot to its highest, what is the distance from the needle plate to the bottom of the walking foot?

I sewed with the clutch motor for awhile, and you get used to it.  However, if your really want to sew at a snails pace for some items, but really take off on long straightaways like belts, , I highly recommend the FS-550 servo motor.

Edited by RemingtonSteel

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14 hours ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Conner congrats on the purchase! From looking at the literature I have, Ferdco only lists the HH in the Pro 2000HHFB package which listed for $7,095, but you could get the head only for $6,545.  I don't see a Pro 2000HH package which would have been mounted on a table like the standard 2000 or the 2000H. So either someone purchased the head only and built their own flatbed table (not likely), or I would say that you what you do indeed have is the Pro 2000HHFB with the original table.  I don't think Ferdco would have put on the FB decal (even if there was enough room) as one, it is self evident, and two, it has no bearing on that actual head itself.  If you are going to be sewing items without contours to it (fairly flat items), stick with the flatbed for now, as you can always remount it down the road if that situation changes.

Curious, did you get any attachments with it, like a holster or stirrup plate, different feet, roller guide, etc?  Also, I would really be interested in knowing the capacity of the HH.  If you put the needle in the top most position, and using the foot pedal to raise the presser foot to its highest, what is the distance from the needle plate to the bottom of the walking foot?

I sewed with the clutch motor for awhile, and you get used to it.  However, if your really want to sew at a snails pace for some items, but really take off on long straightaways like belts, , I highly recommend the FS-550 servo motor.

Ok this is good to know. So in theory...I could go either way with this machine with mounting as the head is the same - the the table would be all that changes. I do want access to the cylinder arm to some degree...but first priority is getting the function of everything squared away. If I have some time this weekend I will get those measurements for you. I think with some tweaking the clutch motor would be fine - but I think my learning curve would be shorter with a servo motor.  I didn't get any parts when I initially purchased the machine - BUT - the guy that sold it to me says he has a lot of thread and stuff hanging around in the shop they came from, so there is a chance that I could grab some stuff from him, I would definitely like to get my hands on a few different feet and plates to try out. If not, I sent an e-mail to Ron Hoffman (Hoffman brothers) and they are ferdco, fully stocked with new machines and parts...

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1 hour ago, connerh04 said:

So in theory...I could go either way with this machine with mounting as the head is the same - the the table would be all that changes.

Conner, yes you are mostly correct. If mounting  the head on a different table or a stand, you could use the same motor, and speed reducer (if it came with one.)  The only thing you may need to alter/replace is the connector rods (connects foot pedal to actuating arm on motor), and the chain for the presser foot lifter, if they are not long enough. Below is a photo (provided by JerseyFirefighter on a different thread ) that shows a Ferdco that Keystone Sewing was selling with an additional flat bed attachment.  To me, this would be the best way to mount a 441, if one need both a cylinder arm and flatbed machine.

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I hope you are correct about Hoffman Brothers, but I have my doubts. HB purchased Ferdco around 2011-2012(?), and the page on the HB website regarding Leather Machines (https://hoffmanbrothers.com/leather-machines/) points to https://www.Ferdco.com, which hasn't been updated since the purchase. I believe that Keystone Sewing Machines, was one of the last companies still selling Ferdco but I noticed they no longer list Ferdcos on their website. Unfortunately Gregg From Keystone Sewing is not longer with us to add to this discussion. My personal experience with HB is that I emailed them right after getting my Pro 2000 looking for extra feet, and they never responded to my email.

Edited by RemingtonSteel
Can't spell

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5 minutes ago, RemingtonSteel said:

Conner, yes you are mostly correct. If mounting  the head on a different table or a stand, you could use the same motor, and speed reducer (if it came with one.)  The only thing you may need to alter/replace is the connector rods (connects foot pedal to actuating arm on motor), and the chain for the presser foot lifter, if they are not long enough. Below is a photo (provided by JerseyFirefighter on a different thread ) that shows a Ferdco that Keystone Sewing was selling with an additional flat bed attachment.  To me, this would be the best way to mount a 441, if one need both a cylinder arm and flatbed machine.

 

I hope you are correct about Hoffman Brothers, but I have my doubts. HB purchased Ferdco around 2011-2012(?), and the page on the HB website regarding Leather Machines (https://hoffmanbrothers.com/leather-machines/) points to https://www.Ferdco.com, which hasn't been updated since the purchase. I believe that Keystone Sewing Machines, was one of the last companies still selling Ferdco but I noticed they no longer list Ferdcos on their website. Unfortunately Gregg From Keystone Sewing is not longer with us to add to this discussion. My personal experience with HB is that I emailed them right after getting my Pro 2000 looking for extra feet, and they never responded to my email.

 

Yes, a table like that would be the cats meow...I would really like to find one somewhat locally to avoid what I can only assume would be some pretty hefty shipping charges...

I received one e-mail from HB, I haven't inquired about parts yet, just asked for a catalog, but this isn't this first time I am hearing about possible poor service. We will see...How much of a Ferdco 2000 is unique to ferdco? Am I right in thinking that a lot of the parts can be picked up from other 441 machine companies? Juki or clones...

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33 minutes ago, connerh04 said:

Yes, a table like that would be the cats meow...I would really like to find one somewhat locally to avoid what I can only assume would be some pretty hefty shipping charges...

Yes it would, but new ones are too pricy for me even before shipping.  May take you awhile to find a used one.

I am not an expert by any means in this area, and don't claim to be.  Having said that, many parts can be swapped out with Juki TSC-441 parts as Ferdinand based his machine on the Juki TSC-441. His first machines were actually Jukis that he modified to sew heavier and thicker leather, and they still had the Juki decal as shown in the top photo posted by DonInReno. Later I believe he switched to having his own heads cast, but I am not sure how many parts if any he may have still purchased from Juki, and how many were his own.  Other 441 parts from other vendors such as feet from Cobra, Cowboy, TechSew, and Artisan, although they may fit, may have to be altered or the machine adjusted to use them. As an example, feet from other vendors may fit the Ferdco, but the overall length of the foot may be slightly different.  You would then either have to grind down the foot if too long, or adjust your machine to sew properly with this new foot length.  Having to adjust the machine would be fine if it was a one time thing, but would not be recommended if you had to switch back and forth between the original Ferdco feet and the new vendors feet (the info about the feet I credit to JJN as he clued me into this.) 

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