Dye bleeding from edges veg and waxed??

[donohueleather]

Hi all,

new to this board, have searched but I am not finding a specific post on this subject. (I.e. Bleeding dye from hand finished veg tanned leather and/or  waxed leathers)

Recently I have been looking at expanding my work from holsters, knife sheaths and wallets to bags and accessories (totes, purses, dope kits, etc.). After making a number of items I've run into an issue. namely, dye bleeding from the leather under certain conditions (typically hot & humid and in contact with sun screen...?).

BACKSTORY - I made my wife a tote bag out of oil tanned leather, knowing the oil tanned leather wasn't going to work well for straps I made straps from veg tanned leather. I hand dyed the leather and finished with a top coat of resoline, the edges were beveled, dyed with Fiebings pro dye and burnished with Tokonole. For the Flesh side I opted for Eco-Flow water stain, sealed with Saddle-lac (I've done this with belts with positive results for a while). Prior to fixing to the bag, I tested for dye transfer with paper towels over multiple passes, no transfer.

The issue I ran into was that on a hot and humid day the straps began to bleed dye out (onto my wife's fair skin, she laughed, I laughed... I was wrong..). I thought the issue might be related to the two different dye options or maybe the sunscreen she had on her leg (maybe it acted like solvent???). I tested the strap again against my skin (no sunscreen), nothing, tested against a paper towel, nothing.. tested on her arm (with sun screen) and it transferred.... not sure if this is causation or merely correlation?

I could use an edge paint vs. dye but I'm wondering if the transfer had more to do with the heat/humidity or the sunscreen?

 

Onto the second dye/bleed irritation.

Unsure of the issue causing the first bag's straps to bleed, I made another bag. This time out of waxed red crazy-horse leather. The straps were dyed with fiebings pro dye only (thinking maybe the water-stain wasn't setting fully) and burnished with tokonole before sealing the whole dang strap with Saddle-lac (thick coat). I thought I'd addressed the bleeding issue, but then, on another outing she informed me her jeans were marked with red lines. I'm super irritated at this point because I can't seem to find a solution to the bleeding (note I've never had this issue with holster, belt pouches, wallets, belts...) Then I realized the lines were consistent with the color of the crazyhorse waxed leather, not from the dark brown straps.

I became confused and frustrated, I may have called the bag mean names as I handed over my debit card to buy new jeans..

...

I drank some beer and thought about it all.

...

I may have had a few beers while I thought about it all.

...

Fast forward...

...

I am now wondering, can the waxed crazyhorse leather be sealed to prevent bleeding, or does it need to? Could the bleeding effect be simply due to the hot/humid conditions when the dye transferred? It doesn't seem to transfer under normal (<80f) conditions or in my leather shop. And if that is the case, would a pre-dyed and finished veg tan have the same issue potentially? or would it be more resistant to transfer due to the industrial processes it goes through?

 

Also, does the Eco-Flo water stain require some other sealant to prevent bleeding? (other than Saddle-lac or Resolene?)

 

Has anybody else experienced similar issues? Am I missing a step in prep/finish somewhere? Or am I Simply dealing with an extreme scenario due to weather? It was 90-100F with pacific northwest humidity on the days of the issues..

 

Does anybody else have a preferred beer or whiskey for their leather shop time?

 

Inquisitive minds must know! Any thoughts, questions, feedback are appreciated.

(pictures attached of offending bags and straps)

 

[fredk]

try sealing it with 'Mop & Glo' * floor polish which is very thin acrylic varnish. 

I use a local version a lot for sealing

* this has various names

Home made meade

[donohueleather]

4 hours ago, fredk said:

try sealing it with 'Mop & Glo' * floor polish which is very thin acrylic varnish. 

I use a local version a lot for sealing

* this has various names

Home made meade

Thanks for the feedback. I'll pick some up and take a look. 

With regard to the waxed leather, do you use this as a top coat for the whole piece or just the edge? or do you only use it on the dyed veg tan?

[fredk]

I don't use 'waxed'' leather,  I use my version of M&G in place of Resolene as a complete sealer. If it soaks in it'll probably seal

[MountainFisher]

I have had issues with 'Crazy Horse' leathers before from Tandy, but I suspect it is the makers of Crazy Horse chrome tanned leather. I recognize that leather on the tote as the stuff Tandy sells.  If it comes into contact with any kind of oil it bleeds, I've made a personal belt that was crummy looking veg tan so I put Crazy Horse on the outside to stiffen the 7-8 oz and hide the marks on it. I just burnished the edges with water and that stuff bled onto my pants when it got wet in rain. I wiped it down with lacquer thinner, to remove excess dye, put carnauba wax on lightly and sealed the heck out of it and it stopped. Oh, I reburnished the edges with gum trag in my 4 foot belt pony with my drill burnisher.

In my experience Crazy Horse leather is not always "colorfast" and needs to be sealed. Test it by rubbing a wet cloth with a drop of olive oil onto part of it and see if it bleeds. Sweat has oils and salts so it will affect some dyes you just have to expect. The big thing is that some cheap (and expensive too) chrome tan tends to bleed so always consider that. I seal with acrylic and if it does not soak in, then the leather was properly sealed before leaving the tannery. I still buy inexpensive import leather, but I test it before making anything with it, even a book cover. I do not see any situations where bleeding dye isn't a problem.

Now I've never had Pro Dye come off after I still seal it so far especially considering I dip dye my belts. I seldom line my belts because I do not have a sewing machine so I use 10-12 oz leather, mostly Hermann Oak veg-tan for heavily carved and tooled belts. I learned my lesson on using a water based Antique Gel and let it get on the back of the belt without rubbing it off. Luckily it was a gift and no harm done as it washed out of my daughter's pants. I've noticed the bleed off dye from the Crazy Horse washed out too, but took two cycles through the wash. Was white pants.

Luckily I do not live in California, but if anyone who does want some Pro Dye, you can buy Angelus Brand spirit dye directly from Angelus if you need to as they are in CA, Santa Fe Springs. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by MountainFisher
spelling, punctuation and addition

[Handstitched]

G'Day, 

Like FredK, I don't use waxed leather or oil based dyes, I learnt my lesson  a long time ago, same thing,  dye bleeding . I only  use water based dyes now.  As Neat-Lac is no longer made and its variants cannot be transported by air,  I now use a water based varnish ,normally  for wood, I only use it on particular projects. But I have also found a product, (only here in Oz), called ' Seal & Shine' https://maclaceleather.com.au/product/seal-shine-1-litre/ .  I use this pretty much all the time now. It does have a nice smooth shine,  feels nice too, polishes up nice, and  no rub off or bleeding. 

HS

[donohueleather]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:40 PM, MountainFisher said:

I have had issues with 'Crazy Horse' leathers before from Tandy, but I suspect it is the makers of Crazy Horse chrome tanned leather. I recognize that leather on the tote as the stuff Tandy sells.  If it comes into contact with any kind of oil it bleeds, I've made a personal belt that was crummy looking veg tan so I put Crazy Horse on the outside to stiffen the 7-8 oz and hide the marks on it. I just burnished the edges with water and that stuff bled onto my pants when it got wet in rain. I wiped it down with lacquer thinner, to remove excess dye, put carnauba wax on lightly and sealed the heck out of it and it stopped. Oh, I reburnished the edges with gum trag in my 4 foot belt pony with my drill burnisher.

In my experience Crazy Horse leather is not always "colorfast" and needs to be sealed. Test it by rubbing a wet cloth with a drop of olive oil onto part of it and see if it bleeds. Sweat has oils and salts so it will affect some dyes you just have to expect. The big thing is that some cheap (and expensive too) chrome tan tends to bleed so always consider that. I seal with acrylic and if it does not soak in, then the leather was properly sealed before leaving the tannery. I still buy inexpensive import leather, but I test it before making anything with it, even a book cover. I do not see any situations where bleeding dye isn't a problem.

Now I've never had Pro Dye come off after I still seal it so far especially considering I dip dye my belts. I seldom line my belts because I do not have a sewing machine so I use 10-12 oz leather, mostly Hermann Oak veg-tan for heavily carved and tooled belts. I learned my lesson on using a water based Antique Gel and let it get on the back of the belt without rubbing it off. Luckily it was a gift and no harm done as it washed out of my daughter's pants. I've noticed the bleed off dye from the Crazy Horse washed out too, but took two cycles through the wash. Was white pants.

Luckily I do not live in California, but if anyone who does want some Pro Dye, you can buy Angelus Brand spirit dye directly from Angelus if you need to as they are in CA, Santa Fe Springs. 

Thanks for the feedback!

Somewhat glad to know it's not something I did / didn't do. buuuut, this leather may end up being stuck in the back of the pile and relegated to things like coffee cup wraps or something else (not in direct contact with skin / clothing).

for the edges on the veg straps that bled, i went back and sanded and sealed with edgekote. not quite what i had in mind initially, but it worked out.. and.. doesn't bleed!

[donohueleather]

On 7/18/2021 at 7:36 PM, Handstitched said:

G'Day, 

Like FredK, I don't use waxed leather or oil based dyes, I learnt my lesson  a long time ago, same thing,  dye bleeding . I only  use water based dyes now.  As Neat-Lac is no longer made and its variants cannot be transported by air,  I now use a water based varnish ,normally  for wood, I only use it on particular projects. But I have also found a product, (only here in Oz), called ' Seal & Shine' https://maclaceleather.com.au/product/seal-shine-1-litre/ .  I use this pretty much all the time now. It does have a nice smooth shine,  feels nice too, polishes up nice, and  no rub off or bleeding. 

HS

G'day Mate ,

Thanks for the feedback.

Now that I'm branching outside of my comfortable niche, I'm evaluating the finish processes.

Do you find any issues with applying after oiling? Do you have a wait time after oiling before you apply it?

Edited July 20, 2021 by donohueleather
spellang

[Handstitched]

G'Day ,

I once used just oil based dyes on belts etc. in my early days but ran into problems.

But the leather I was having some serious  issues with is some chrome tanned  5 - 5.5mm buffalo hide that was on 'special' . I bought about 6 small sides,   but little did I know that it wasn't sealed properly, or just simply wasn't finished  properly, which is maybe  why they were  so cheap.  . So every time I made a belt or a dog collar, the dye kept coming out, even after so many coats of my regular sealer. I even had to give a refund to one customer because the dye came out onto his dogs neck...OOPS !!! Awkies 

Where to from there? my efforts to get a variant of Neat-lac failed, so I experimented , I tried a water based varnish. It worked. I have yet to try @fredk 's  idea of using Mop N Glo.  Sometimes we have to think outside the 'leather square'  . 

But I now use ' Seal & Shine' on all of my  veg tan leather projects after dying , belts, knife cases etc. 

HS