You can't afford starting with leathercraft?

[kgg]

13 hours ago, tsunkasapa said:

I WILL NOT support the Chinese economy, OR those companies trying to get rich off of cheap labor. I will NOT knowingly buy ANY "Made In China" products. Even if I have to pay twice the price.

A little more harsh then myself but when I need a good quality item I look at items made in North America first, then Europe, then Japan, then South America with China being a last resort. I have bought fabric out of Paraguay, desktop fabric strip machine for making binding out of Brazil, 3d printers made in Czech Republic and sewing machines made in Japan.

kgg

[chuck123wapati]

14 hours ago, tsunkasapa said:

100% immaterial, I WILL NOT support the Chinese economy, OR those companies trying to get rich off of cheap labor. I will NOT knowingly buy ANY "Made In China" products. Even if I have to pay twice the price. "F" them very much!

I agree 100% its not about the quality of the tools or products. Its about who makes them and how they are treated in China. Slave labor is what is happening over there and no country can compete with them when they have no labor cost. They captured the world economy while everyone slept now we buy Chinese because there is nothing else in our stores.

[Handstitched]

Meanwhile.....going back to OP....in regards to affordability...

get the violins out... 

When I first started leather, the majority of my tools were S/H , scouring the classifieds...the 'antiquated' paper ones,  some the tools I bought were from ex- leather crafters etc. Many came with books and heaps of other stuff. A leather shop in Perth had S/H tools,  as well as   leather off cuts. I also looked around in hardware shops to see what tools can be utilised for use with  leather .  It kept costs  way down . I still use them today  .  Only a few tools I threw out in the early days, a rotary punch, it bent after a few uses, and rotary cutter that couldn't cut the skin on a custard.   But I learnt from that. Only after I  became more interested in leather & gained a lot of experience I bought new tools.    The most lethal tool I have ever bought was a thumb strander  It strands thumbs , not leather   Its in a box,  at the back of a shelf, .......where it stays . 

HS

 

[tsunkasapa]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:08 AM, Klara said:

Your house must be really empty. And how did you get your post online?

On the contrary. My house is FULL of early to mid 20th century furniture. Furniture made with real wood. Like walnut, maple, oak. I don't have a cheap POS recliner, I have a Morris reclining chair. As for my computer, it's a 10 year old model and still using Windows 7. Bought before my anti-China decision. One doesn't have to surrender to the flood of garbage.

[sbrownn]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:25 PM, tsunkasapa said:

100% immaterial, I WILL NOT support the Chinese economy, OR those companies trying to get rich off of cheap labor. I will NOT knowingly buy ANY "Made In China" products. Even if I have to pay twice the price. "F" them very much!

Well now at least we know the real reason you won't buy anything from China; seems like it really has nothing to do with the quality of the product at all.

[tsunkasapa]

3 hours ago, sbrownn said:

Well now at least we know the real reason you won't buy anything from China; seems like it really has nothing to do with the quality of the product at all.

It never DID. But much of it IS inferior garbage.

Edited September 29, 2021 by tsunkasapa

[fredk]

Back to the original OP intro

When I started seriously in this leatherwork lark I used tools I had in my shed.

I fortunately had a large amount of odd tools. Plenty of hole punches, plenty of various knives, straight edges, squares. It was simply a matter of looking at a tool and seeing if it would do a job on leather

For cutting I used my old and trusty Stanley knife, (aka a box cutter knife?) (now owned for 52 years, but not the blade! & still used)  heavy duty shears and even tin-smiths shears.

For an awl I sharpened a wood working bradawl

I bought linen thread on wee cards at a haberdashers. 10m of thread with a needle for about £1 I got ready rivets at a shoe repair shop, at 20p each, very dear but then that was the only place I knew to get them

Skiving? never heard of it

I got my leather from a special recycling shop. There used to be places that companies could off-load their decent waste. It was sorted and schools and play-groups could take what they wanted for use in childrens' arts. They mostly ignored the leather. My wifey owned a children's nursery school so she went there often and brought me back bags full of leather. Writing this reminds me that I still have a couple of decent sized boxes full of it!

As time went on and I read more of Al Stohlman's  and other books the odd tools were changed to better quality proper leatherwork tools. Along the way I did buy some real rubbishy tools but they in turn were replaced. Some of those really crap tools came from the main names in leather work and some really good tools have come cheaply from 'no-name' places.

My first efforts were half-decent. Others in my medieval history presentation group were happy to buy the items and ordered more even though selling was not my intent. I was making kit for me & family primarily.

I'm the sort of person who strives to get as good as possible in as short a time as I can eg, I passed my motorcycle driving test in an August and by the following April I was an instructor & driving examiner, I took up Fencing and within 6 months I was good enough to represent N.I. in competitions.

Bad tools and skill will do a job. Good tools and skill will do a better job, or make the job easier

[mike02130]

On 9/29/2021 at 4:37 PM, tsunkasapa said:

It never DID. But much of it IS inferior garbage.

I Agree 100%.  Money spent in the USA stays in the USA.  At least most of it does.  I'd rather spend my money close to home.  It helps  my neighbor buy food, pay their rent and send their kids to college.  The money goes back into the American economy.  Then there is the large dereliction of worker's rights and environmental regulations and the large carbon footprint of being made in China.  Yes, it is nearly impossible to buy products not made in China, but I try my damndest.  One is better off buying 40 year old used items that will outlast the newer imports.  How about you UK guys that buy tools made in China that are labeled made in England? It is because they ship the finished tool to England and then Sheffield will attach  a handle.  How many Doc Martens employees lost their jobs when they started being Made in China?  Australians--how about the job and quality losses from Blundstone moving to China?  The landfills are full of cheap crap.  I'm happier  having fewer good items rather than a lot of crap items.  By the way, none of what I said has anything to do with US China politics.

[Klara]

I wonder how the Chinese forum menbers feel about all this anti-China sentiment... Personally, I couldn't care less where something was made as long as it's enough value for money. (I have a labeled "Made in US" dog frisbee from Kong that cost ten times as much as the Chinese no-name one but doesn't fly any better.) 

[Handstitched]

Aaaaaaanyway......

Back to the OP........again.

 

@fredk You took me on a trip down memory lane. I also used a ( non retractable)  ' Stanley' knife from my old fibreglass pool days ( still covered in f/glass) ) still have it, and use it.  For my  leather sewing awl....( don't laugh) I used a large  hand sewing needle, but covered the  'eye' end  with padded leather to help push it through leather , and not my fingers, but, it worked.  Still have it. I too bought thread on those ' wee cards' ....still have those too, geez   

In one of my old leather books from the 70's , you can make  stamping tools with old  large nails. Carefully grind a pattern  of choice on the head,cut the point off, and hey presto, stamping tool . Get an old  flat head screw driver , modify it, sharpen it to use a carving knife. Very  70's 'retro' , but,  it works.

 For the newbies that are budget conscious, its not necessary  to buy brand new tools. 

HS

[mike02130]

3 hours ago, Klara said:

I wonder how the Chinese forum menbers feel about all this anti-China sentiment

I suggest you put your mind at ease and ask them.   No one here is espousing anti-China sentiment.  Rather it is that China is known for copying, counterfeiting and producing cheap inferior products and having shoddy working and environmental conditions. That is a fact.

[sbrownn]

On 10/2/2021 at 5:24 AM, mike02130 said:

I suggest you put your mind at ease and ask them.   No one here is espousing anti-China sentiment.  Rather it is that China is known for copying, counterfeiting and producing cheap inferior products and having shoddy working and environmental conditions. That is a fact.

There is a lot of anti-China sentiment on this site that is not supported by actual facts. 

Many companies trade their trade "secrets" to the Chinese for access to their markets and that is their choice.  All countries workmanship is considered "shoddy" when they are first industrializing.  No better example than the Japan bashing after WWII.  Countries seek to fill markets that is within their capabilities to fill.  Prior to having their infrastructure destroyed in WWII the Japanese made absolutely great vehicles and products and that is why they made such a quick recovery after the war.  Just because a country makes low cost products to fill a market niche doesn't mean that they are "shoddy" workmen.  

Maybe you should take a closer look at the environmental regulations that US corporations avoid by manufacturing in foreign countries.   

[sbrownn]

On 9/29/2021 at 1:37 PM, tsunkasapa said:

It never DID. But much of it IS inferior garbage.

Only what you see in the stores.  What do you think you see in the Chinese stores of American made leather goods?  Many of the Chinese goods are made to fill the part of the American market that doesn't care about quality...which is quite large.  The Chinese were making high quality leatherwork 5000 years before America ever existed...do you think they have somehow have lost that skill set?

Edited October 7, 2021 by sbrownn
spelling

[Spyros]

In my experience with leather/wood/metal tools, I have concluded that IF I HAVE TO CHOOSE, I much prefer quantity over quality.   To word this better, I prefer variety over quality.  And to explain this even further with an example: 

I would rather have amateur level bandsaw, jig saw, fret saw, and scroll saw, and use the appropriate tool of the 4 for each job, rather than sink all my budget on a top quality band saw and try to put all all projects through it.   I can probably do all those jobs on a bandsaw if I must, and it will probably look crap, or I will lose a finger.  Having a wide range of tools so I can select the correct type of tool for the job is important for me, even if they're cheap.

An extreme example from leatherworking:  I'd rather have a cheap hardware benchtop press with a thousand dies and another thousand manual setters, so that I'm confident I can properly set ALL the hardware I might choose to use in the future, than have an excellent industrial floor standing electric rivet setter with only a couple of dies, and have to try and set all hardware through it.

When I say amateur tools, I never go rock bottom cheapest, like IKEA drills or home brand hardware store tools, because a lot of them are just completely useless (not all of them, but some are).  When I have the option I go one or two levels above that, somewhere between average price and rock bottom price.  

About woodworking specifically.  Keep in mind that woodworking has transitioned decades ago from a professional trade to a gentleman's hobby.  There are still professional carpenters and professional cabinet makers, but hardcore woodworkers (the type who cuts dovetails on a woodworking bench and makes jewelry boxes and handmade furniture) are almost exclusively amateurs with money and time.  These guys are tool proud and care equally about the result and the process and how their tools look and feel and sound and smell, and are permanently in some stage of upgrading , often just for the sake of upgrading.  And specialised woodworking shops sell them expensive stuff accordingly.  Don't get sucked in.  

Now, overtime, in every craft, and with lots of use, it becomes apparent that some cheap tools just don't cut it.  They have to be replaced too often, or the result is not great, or they need too much maintenance.  IF and when you get to that stage, and only then, is the right time to buy a good quality tool for that specific job. But that depends what you are actually doing, and how often you're doing it.  And therefore it's a different tool for everybody that you have to upgrade, and you will never know which one it is for you that you have to upgrade until you put in the hours.

What Nigel Armitage says makes sense, because he's a teacher, and he knows exactly what it is that he will ask you to do, and how often, and how intensively, and what is the expected quality of the outcome.  So in his students case he already knows exactly which tool it is that has to be above average.  But in every other scenario you'll have to find all that out for yourself, with time and use.  You might find you passion (or even your profession) in making nothing but dog collars all day, you will need a top notch strap cutter!

 

All that is in my opinion of course, your mileage may vary

Edited October 8, 2021 by Spyros

[Spyros]

The Chinese will make you what you pay for.  We collectively have an insatiable appetite for cheap crap, so they make us cheap crap.

They also make iphones, DJI drones, high speed trains and some high end industrial, telco and military equipment, if you can afford it.  China has a very long history or innovation going back thousand of years, so I think they deserve some respect.  Historically they were ahead of the world for a very long time and it looks like they're slowly coming back in a big way.

I got some awesome stuff from Kemovan craft and Kevin Lee and it compares really well to anything you want to compare it to.  It was cheap-er, but it definitely wasnt cheap.  High quality products out of China are getting more expensive by the year.  The world is changing.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Spyros

[johnnydb]

As a rabid hobbyist and have been through several careers...

Tools are just something that you have to have. And steel is not all the same. 

When shaving with straight razors: 

Friends don't let friends shave with Pakistani steel. And I specifically look for that junk... because it is junk. I want no part of it. 

In some places it is important to buy the "good stuff" because there is only one me...and I got to return again tomorrow to do it again. It's all about "return on investment". And sometimes it is all about my convenience versus getting something cheaper that will work but is a pain to use. (Especially if I use it often) 

And when needing a special tool for a single use or rare use...don't bother getting the expensive stuff. It's just not going to work out...first off it's taking up space without paying rent. 

And I haven't bought a knife or awl yet that didn't require a few hours of sharpening and polishing the edge first in order to be useful.  

That fact alone should be in every introductory video and pamphlet...but most of them leave that tidbit out. Most think that brand new out of the plastic it should be good...not a one of them yet are. My first swivel knife I bought earlier this week had a polished edge...with a piss poor angle for the edge and so dull it wouldn't cut butter. I had to grind in a better angle for the edge and then gave it one. And then I had a great time cutting and getting used to it. I can tell that this is going to be fun. 

 

When I was a fine dining chef...I used all kinds of chef knives....tried them all out. And the good knives are expensive for a reason...those few ounces less weight and the length of time it holds that edge matter a good deal when turning a 20 KG/50lbs bag of carrots into sticks. 

Some things are just preferences...I like certain tools because they fit my hands better and after years of use their performance is such I don't even have to watch what I am doing anymore. I can do it blindfolded and not do better or worse than normal. 

 

I'm not so accomplished yet as I need a clicker press to mass produce anything....but I'm not looking to make a living either....I will if there becomes a demand for it. But how many journals and keychains and wallets sold at profitable prices can be sold in my neighborhood? And will they still have that Craftsman touch if I do?  Or will it become like poorly made production pieces if I make too many too fast with stitching machines and clicker presses?  

The prices are always figured on materials+labor+ overhead+profit. 

Overhead is the cost of tools...they are expendables that wear out. 

If you need longer than 30 minutes to carve out a wallet is it you or the tools?  And can you get it done faster on the press? Is it cheaper to sub out gold embossed initials and names or do you fork out for the machine and letters. It will raise your overhead costs if you buy it.  

 

Just saying...

[Spyros]

3 hours ago, johnnydb said:

The prices are always figured on materials+labor+ overhead+profit. 

Nope, not me.  My prices are always figured out based on what I can charge, which is based on the competition.  I never leave money on the table, this is for people who price their stuff based on their costs.

If an iphone was based on costs it would be priced $200.

(I agree with everything else you said by the way, pricing is just my favourite nitpick :D  )

Edited October 8, 2021 by Spyros

[Klara]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

Now, overtime, in every craft, and with lots of use, it becomes apparent that some cheap tools just don't cut it.  They have to be replaced too often, or the result is not great, or they need too much maintenance.  IF and when you get to that stage, and only then, is the right time to buy a good quality tool for that specific job.

I agree with that, except it needn't be a specific job, it can also be an all-purpose tool I use again and again and again. Like a battery drill/screwdriver. It took me a few tries, but I finally realised I had  to spend the money on a Makita (anybody knows an equivalent brand, please tell). On the other hand, buying a Dremel would have been a waste of money, the cheap knockoff does the job in the rare cases I need it. I have quite a few tools that I have for "just in case" (tiny screwdrivers to repair my glasses) - often enough I had picked them up in the supermarket when sets were on offer for little money.

Of course, that way I buy twice (or more often), but I spend the big bucks only where necessary. I think that still works out cheaper than buying all tools in top quality, even the ones I'll hardly use.

However, I'm getting to the point where I think that cheap hardware - and possibly cheap leather, but I'll continue experimenting for a while - are just not worth my time and effort. Which is a pity, cause that's where the real money goes (€ 3 for a single decorative and functional snap??!!...)

(Back to China: I bought one of the small rounded knives without a handle and so far I'm really impressed.)

 

[Spyros]

27 minutes ago, Klara said:

It took me a few tries, but I finally realised I had  to spend the money on a Makita (anybody knows an equivalent brand, please tell).

In the world of drills the hierarchy is: high end (Hilti, Festool, Mafell) mid-range/tradie's typical choices (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch (blue), Makita), entry level (Ryobi, Bosch (green), various glorious old brand names that have been bought by China Inc. like AEG, Black & Decker etc)

For most people the entry level ones are perfectly fine to be honest.  I have a home brand one that literally has a red sticker on the cable that says "for DIY use only" LOL

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, Spyros said:

In the world of drills the hierarchy is: high end (Hilti, Festool, Mafell) mid-range/tradie's typical choices (Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bosch (blue), Makita), entry level (Ryobi, Bosch (green), various glorious old brand names that have been bought by China Inc. like AEG, Black & Decker etc)

For most people the entry level ones are perfectly fine to be honest.  I have a home brand one that literally has a red sticker on the cable that says "for DIY use only" LOL

just my two cents on tools example=  You can buy the best drill and it still wont drill with crappy drill bits or you can buy a crappy drill and it will drill well with high quality drill bits. This is where i have seen most folks  new in trades failing. they gotta have the right Color power tools on site as you pointed out to look pro and be one of the guys but then they buy the crap when it comes to the bits, blades and  such. 

i've never owned upper end power tools but i buy only upper end wear parts bits blades and such they save the tool no matter how well made from destruction from overwork. 

[johnnydb]

7 hours ago, Spyros said:

Nope, not me.  My prices are always figured out based on what I can charge, which is based on the competition.  I never leave money on the table, this is for people who price their stuff based on their costs.

If an iphone was based on costs it would be priced $200.

(I agree with everything else you said by the way, pricing is just my favourite nitpick :D  )

Well of course you charge what the market will bear. 

 

And an iPhone would be priced much higher than $200 if it were based on true costs. But they know that the market won't bear that...the service and all the little things that you buy for and with the iphone make up for the cheap price....kinda like the average computer printer. They are cheap to the customer but the ink cartridges (even the knockoffs) are really expensive versus their true cost of manufacturing...the printers are sold at a loss... because there's only one source for ink cartridges. And they make much more off the ink than you would think. 

(Business school graduate) sorry...can't help myself. 

 

But this does bring up another relevant point. In history there were several gold rushes. Not a single miner got rich off the gold... even those who invested vast sums into large mines made any money. But the guys who made it out the wealthiest were those who sold the mining equipment. 

Far be it for me to deprive anyone of their nickel due...it's when they want the dollars for a gold plated mouse trap to stop from losing a penny's worth of crackers that I have pause with. 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, johnnydb said:

Well of course you charge what the market will bear. 

 

And an iPhone would be priced much higher than $200 if it were based on true costs. But they know that the market won't bear that...the service and all the little things that you buy for and with the iphone make up for the cheap price....kinda like the average computer printer. They are cheap to the customer but the ink cartridges (even the knockoffs) are really expensive versus their true cost of manufacturing...the printers are sold at a loss... because there's only one source for ink cartridges. And they make much more off the ink than you would think. 

(Business school graduate) sorry...can't help myself. 

 

But this does bring up another relevant point. In history there were several gold rushes. Not a single miner got rich off the gold... even those who invested vast sums into large mines made any money. But the guys who made it out the wealthiest were those who sold the mining equipment. 

Far be it for me to deprive anyone of their nickel due...it's when they want the dollars for a gold plated mouse trap to stop from losing a penny's worth of crackers that I have pause with. 

Your story brings to mind this they also supplied the UP shovels, picks and such, after they got into power they made millions. can you imagine how many shovels it took to build the panama or the UP. 

Oliver Ames was the president of the Union Pacific Railroad, while his brother Oakes was a Massachusetts congressman. But before they assumed their respective positions, the brothers ran a successful business selling axes and shovels to gold-seekers in California, and making millions in the process. The duo later supplied shovels to the government during the Civil War, for excavating the Panama Canal, for mining Pennsylvania coal fields, and for digging the New York subway system.

[johnnydb]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Your story brings to mind this they also supplied the UP shovels, picks and such, after they got into power they made millions. can you imagine how many shovels it took to build the panama or the UP. 

Oliver Ames was the president of the Union Pacific Railroad, while his brother Oakes was a Massachusetts congressman. But before they assumed their respective positions, the brothers ran a successful business selling axes and shovels to gold-seekers in California, and making millions in the process. The duo later supplied shovels to the government during the Civil War, for excavating the Panama Canal, for mining Pennsylvania coal fields, and for digging the New York subway system.

The electronics suppliers of today weren't exactly having an original concept...

 

AND

 

I've been playing with cheap steel letters and my clothes iron...I set it on the cotton setting upside down using a mallet through the handle...(to keep it upside down) 

I then set the letters on it and just finished working out the details of gold foil embossing without using one of those expensive machines. (I also used a metal ruler to keep the spacing and it all straight)

It worked pretty well. Just wear gloves so you don't burn your hands and use a lot of pressure down. 

All total just $20 for the letters at Tandy. They had more expensive sets but I just wanted the capital letters

Edited October 8, 2021 by johnnydb
Additional information

[johnnydb]

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Your story brings to mind this they also supplied the UP shovels, picks and such, after they got into power they made millions. can you imagine how many shovels it took to build the panama or the UP. 

Oliver Ames was the president of the Union Pacific Railroad, while his brother Oakes was a Massachusetts congressman. But before they assumed their respective positions, the brothers ran a successful business selling axes and shovels to gold-seekers in California, and making millions in the process. The duo later supplied shovels to the government during the Civil War, for excavating the Panama Canal, for mining Pennsylvania coal fields, and for digging the New York subway system.

And as the Pandora Papers just revealed...this is STILL going on... except in an international level. 

[mike02130]

On 10/7/2021 at 6:15 PM, sbrownn said:

because a country makes low cost products to fill a market niche doesn't mean that they are "shoddy" workmen.  

I never made that claim.

On 10/7/2021 at 6:15 PM, sbrownn said:

Maybe you should take a closer look at the environmental regulations that US corporations avoid by manufacturing in foreign countries. 

I am aware of them..  I try damn hard to avoid buying from them.

On 10/7/2021 at 6:27 PM, sbrownn said:

The Chinese were making high quality leatherwork 5000 years before America ever existed...do you think they have somehow have lost that skill set?

I don't believe the conversation was about leather goods, was it?

Your little polemic fails in so many ways. What is your point?

Some prefer quality over "quantity".  I prefer quality.  You seem to prefer mediocrity.  Like they say, those who die with the most tools wins.  How are those coal and wine and beef exports doing from your country?  Go tell those workers your defense of buying low-cost imports and see what they say.

Edited October 9, 2021 by mike02130
added info