Uppers made of thick chrome-tanned leather

[ScottEnglish]

Hello again.

The thickest leather that I've used so far for making uppers was about 2.5mm. It stretched excessively during use. I don't want to line my footwear to prevent excessive stretching, so intend using thicker leather in future. Has anyone made uppers using thick chrome-tanned leather?

Thanks.

Scott

[Aven]

I have used 8oz bison.  It has a very soft hand.  Even at 8 oz the shoes still stretched a bit, but it was anticipated and the pattern was cut accordingly.

The whole hide is not consistent in stretch.  In general the leather near the spine will stretch less than the belly. They grow larger around then they do along their back once they reach maturity. 

Pattern placement on the leather is very important.  For example, a pattern of a single piece top placed so the length of it were perpendicular to the spine will stretch more in length than in width.  And if it were placed parallel to the spine at the same location on the leather, the opposite would be true.  You need to stretch the leather by hand to understand how it will stretch and then decide how you are going to place the pattern.  Some times stretch is good, but you need to be in control of it.  Purchasing small portions of the hide can be disadvantageous, in that you have no idea where it was located on the hide and it doesn't always allow you room to place the pattern as you might need with the way the leather stretches.

 

[ScottEnglish]

Hello Aven.

Pattern placement. I've learnt a little about it through this forum. I know what you're talking about when you refer to direction of stretch. I'm often tempted though to focus more on economy when marking parts of a pattern on to leather than direction of stretch! I'll give this matter more thought.

8oz bison leather. What about 12oz leather? If you look at photos of some handmade mocs, such as those by Arrow Moccasin Company, the leather for the uppers looks awfully thick. 

Thanks for your contribution.

Scott

Edited November 26, 2021 by ScottEnglish

[Aven]

Placing the patterns willy-nilly does not always afford you a usable product in the end. To me its a false economy beyond being practice.

8 oz bison is the thickest I've worked with for making shoe uppers.  I have used sole leather and latigo for soles, but nothing like 12 oz chrome for uppers.

Here's what Arrow has to say about their leather.  "Our moccasins are made of extra heavy, quality, Swiss hides that are tanned in England, the same country that produces the best of bridle leathers. A special tanning process is used by a small, family owned tannery, that no one in the world has been able to duplicate. The fibers of the leather are tightly joined in the process, yet are pliable enough to allow the leather to mold to your feet and breathe."

It looks like they are rather tight lipped about their leather.  I couldn't find any indication of the thickness they use. 

[ScottEnglish]

Hi Aven, thanks for the reply. 

The 8oz bison leather. Have you worn them regularly walking up and down hills? I ask as this puts more stress on the leather and promotes excessive stretching. Also, is the bison leather that you've used chrome-tanned? At present, I can only obtain buffalo leather here in the UK that is vegetable-tanned.

Mocs by Arrow. If you're interested in how thick the leather uppers are, then please look at the photos. I think it's more than 8oz.

strayfoto_04.jpg (800×600)

8456112976_25597c1dcb_z.jpg (640×480) (staticflickr.com)

Thanks again.

Scott

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by ScottEnglish

[Aven]

Sorry, no hill climbing.  My hip won't let me.  Chrome tanned then stuffed with oils and whatnot.  It has a soft hand.  I agree, they appear thicker than 8 oz.

[ScottEnglish]

I presume vegetable-tanned bison will be less pliable than chrome-tanned? 

[Aven]

Straight up veg-tanned, probably.  Here's a description from Waterhouse leather.

"A vegetable chrome re-tan offers both the strength of vegetable tanned and the “hand” of a chrome tanned leather. "

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks Aven. A combination-tanned buffalo leather is available here in the UK too. Unfortunately, at present it's out of stock.

I'll leave you in peace!

Scott

[Aven]

No worries Scott.

We are all feeling the supply chain pinch.  When I lived in the Pacific North West, I had two supply houses within driving distance.  Now that I'm living close to the middle of nowhere, I will have to rely on samples to make my choice.  If you can't get to a supply house, see if you can get a decent size sample of the leather you are interested in using.  And think about calling the supply house and having a chat with them about what you want to use the leather for and listen to their recommendations and their reason's why they suggest it.  Followed up with a sample of course.  This will also allow you to get to know the supply house.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Aven

[ScottEnglish]

Hi.

I've just opened a parcel containing half a chrome-tanned back, about 3.5mm - 4mm in thickness, that I'd hoped to use for unlined uppers. I cannot believe how stiff it is! It's like plastic. I've had similar thickness vegetable-tanned leather that has been immeasurably more supple. The leather is intended for equestrian use and was expensive. I thought it would be similar in suppleness to previous chrome-tanned leathers I've bought allowing for the extra thickness. I will have to send it back.

Should this leather be supple or is it meant to be stiff?

Thanks.

Scott

Edited December 1, 2021 by ScottEnglish

[Aven]

Do you remember what you ordered or the description? 

Having a chat with your supply house could minimize your surprises. 

[ScottEnglish]

Hello again Aven. Thanks for the reply.

The supplier describes the leather as a chrome half back and gives dimensions. No other information. My understanding, having contacted the company, is that the leather is from an English tannery. It may well be very good quality, but it's also very stiff and no use to me whatsoever. I will have to return it. Maybe their vegetable-tanned buffalo will be more supple and I can do an exchange.

Scott

[Aven]

When you go to buy again, ask for a sample or at least ask how firm, supple it is and what it is normally used for.

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks for your advice Aven. I will try to ensure the replacement leather is suitable for my need.

Scott

[Latiguy]

Extra thick soft temper, low stretch chrome tan leather is very rare and hard to get. I have been searching for  a couple years to use making moccasins. If you are butt stitching like the Arrows then you will need at least 3mm thick. One option would be Horween Chromexcel. Maverick Leather Co. often stocks some of this in thicker weights. chromexcel is suitable for footwear uppers since it is a chrome retan and therefore pretty stable with wet dry cycles. The temper is usually medium/soft so reasonably easy to work with.

Another option would be chrome tanned Bison leather, this is usually very soft but it can also be stretchy if it is the "shrunken" variety. Distant Drums sells thick chrome bison in the US. Some latigo leathers can also have a medium/soft temper.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Latiguy