Newbie question about chrome vs veg tan

[CrankAddict]

After a few months of watching videos and reading I figured I was ready to step into the real world   I stopped into the leather store the other day to pick up some sample leather and some basic tools.  My main projects of interest are watch straps and wallets at this point.  All of the leather than looked good and felt nice was chrome tan.  The veg tan stuff was very rigid and the coloring was natural tan and boring.  Of course this is just what they happened to have in the scrap bin at the moment, but I grabbed some chrome tan scraps and headed home.

I started out cutting 2 strips of roughly 3 oz leather and gluing them together.  This made a very soft and supple strap, but it seems very difficult to work.  It's too soft to edge bevel.  It's very difficult to make a stitching line with the creaser tool because the side just squishes in.  I can't really sand or burnish the edge at all even using a wooden dowel chucked in a drill press (i.e. I know I have enough speed to create heat).  So is this just the nature of the beast with chrome tan in general?  Or did I just get some "extra soft" chrome tan?  I feel like I'm missing some other parameter to describe what I need here.  I know about the tanning type and the thickness, but is there some other set of terms to describe the softness?

And in general, what type of leather would make the most comfortable watch strap?  I hate the rigid, thick uncomfortable straps I've had in the past.  As I said, the scraps I got the other day feel great against the skin, but they also feel unlike any watch strap I've ever seen, so there must be a reason for that, right?

Thanks!

Jeff

[TonyV]

chrome tan is basically upholstery and clothing leather, soft and supple.  It's next to impossible to tool it, edge it or burnish it, but it does make nice bags, jackets and even watch straps.

veg tan is tooling leather.  It's what you want if you need to stamp, carve, edge and burnish your project.  It gets more supple with use.  A light weight veg makes good watch straps, too.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by TonyV

[battlemunky]

I've only ever used veg tan for watch straps and they are as nice and supple, after an initial break-in period, as chrome tanned is laying in the off-cuts bin. I have a buddy that doesn't really care for "the western look" that natural veg has....so I introduced him to places like RML, DLS, BuckleGuy, etc., where he found nice and supple veg that didn't have the "western" look to it.

I told him that I don't mess with much other than natural veg and that it turns out just fine but he still needed some help. There is a reason veg has worked for the past few thousand years. Not that there is anything really wrong with chrome, but application certainly matters with respect to difficulty.

Look for "milled" veg tan if you want a softer feel, or "hand", or just get a thinner strap and give it a few weeks and it'll be your best friend. Note that milled veg will have similar problems finishing as chrome does though; it's a PITA to edge bevel and isn't as friendly with tooling.

Share some pics too, its always fun for us to see what you are going through as you see it.

[CrankAddict]

Thanks for the responses!  Yeah as I look into the high end watch straps more the materials I'm seeing do seem to be veg tanned (shell cordovan, novonappa, English bridle) 

 

33 minutes ago, battlemunky said:

Share some pics too, its always fun for us to see what you are going through as you see it.

Below you can see what $5 of chrome tan scrap gets.  Considering what hand made leather items sell for this shocks me, but I'm not complaining!  And I do realize the skill and time it takes has a huge impact on price.  But as a woodworker I'm just used to material cost being pretty steep.  This, on the other hand, feels almost like the material costs are irrelevant.  But obviously there are more premium leathers out there...

I also attached a picture of my first saddle stitch.  The leather is so soft it seems a bit hard to maintain consistency because if you pull too hard it squeezes the leather significantly.  But I guess can't expect perfection for stitch number one.  I also don't like how the strands of the thread seem to be separating from each other making an individual stitch look like multiple pieces of thread side by side.  Is that just a poor thread choice (triple strand waxed nylon) or something I'm doing wrong?

 I also did get one strip of very thick (5.3mm) veg tan.  It edge bevels and creases nicely, but I can't even hammer the chisel through it (I didn't want to risk bending the teeth so I'm not willing to whack it too hard).

Edited December 27, 2021 by CrankAddict

[fredk]

Looks like you're not waxing your thread. Wax it as you sew. 

You can never pull stitches up real tight on chrome tan, its too soft

Sharpen and polish the teeth of your stitching chisel

Edited December 28, 2021 by fredk

[CrankAddict]

44 minutes ago, fredk said:

Looks like you're not waxing your thread. Wax it as you sew. 

Thanks for the reply!  The thread is pre-waxed, and it clearly sticks to itself on the bobbin.  But even so, I pulled the length across a block of beeswax twice before stitching.  I did not wax again while stitching, but I only did about a 3 inch run so I didn't think I needed to.  Does it really need that much wax or is it something else I'm messing up?

[fredk]

Yes, it needs lots of waxing, every few inches sometimes. As you pull the thread thru a hole the leather is scraping off some of that wax. Put the thread on top of a block of soft-ish bees wax. put your thumb on the thread and press the thread into the wax, then pull the thread thru the wax still with your thumb pressing it onto the wax. The thread will cut a groove in the wax and get a good coating. But you need to do this several times as you sew

[Spyros]

6 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

But as a woodworker I'm just used to material cost being pretty steep.  This, on the other hand, feels almost like the material costs are irrelevant.  But obviously there are more premium leathers out there...

As another woodworker, I would say enjoy the fact that you can make something on your kitchen table without dust, noise, or being permanently alert to the risk of losing a finger to some spinning blade.  I found it very refreshing when I started 

Material cost will go up quickly as you move on from scraps, but you're not wrong that the work you put in will always be worth a lot more than the material.  My advice is don't be afraid to buy the absolute best leather you desire for your projects, straight from the start.  Just buy a little bit, find a place that sells panels instead of sides.  To keep the cost of learning errors down, keep your first projects small instead of keeping the material cheap.  Making things like watch straps and key fobs will teach you all the skills you need for making big projects later, they are exactly the same, just bigger.    It is important to know what is the leather you bought, because different leathers behave differently and require different designs and different processing methods, so you may as will start learning the ones you will ultimately be using.  Just my 2c, when you're done with those scraps, buy a little bit of expensive leather and make small things with it.

[chrisash]

Just as in the fact there are hundreds of types of wood, there are hundreds of types of leather there are even veg tan that is then treated as chrome. you need to pick the right one for the job. also the animal and also the cut of leather have different properties

YouTube is full of good advice on all leather work but the best is by Nigel Armitage listed below but does incur a monthly fee

I would suggest you look at some videos by  

 

[CrankAddict]

8 hours ago, Spyros said:

As another woodworker, I would say enjoy the fact that you can make something on your kitchen table without dust, noise, or being permanently alert to the risk of losing a finger to some spinning blade.  I found it very refreshing when I started 

Material cost will go up quickly as you move on from scraps, but you're not wrong that the work you put in will always be worth a lot more than the material.  My advice is don't be afraid to buy the absolute best leather you desire for your projects, straight from the start.  Just buy a little bit, find a place that sells panels instead of sides.  To keep the cost of learning errors down, keep your first projects small instead of keeping the material cheap.  Making things like watch straps and key fobs will teach you all the skills you need for making big projects later, they are exactly the same, just bigger.    It is important to know what is the leather you bought, because different leathers behave differently and require different designs and different processing methods, so you may as will start learning the ones you will ultimately be using.  Just my 2c, when you're done with those scraps, buy a little bit of expensive leather and make small things with it.

Great points.  Tools are another area where I'm feeling like I should really spring for the good stuff.  I know in the woodshop I've never been satisfied long term with the cheapo option so I'm trying to learn from that experience.  The issue is that my local stores don't seem to carry the stuff the internet raves about so I get torn between supporting a local business and buying a premium tool.

Also, it's funny you mention the risk of losing a finger... I'm sure it's just a matter of familiarity at this point, but at the moment I'm finding myself far more anxious about cutting my finger with this Olfa razor knife than I am using the miter saw or band saw haha.

 

5 hours ago, chrisash said:

YouTube is full of good advice on all leather work but the best is by Nigel Armitage listed below but does incur a monthly fee

I have not tried his premium offering, but I have watched countless videos by Nigel, Chartermade, Corter, Mascon and others.  That said, the single best video I've found, by far, on saddle stitching was by Peter Nitz.  He has a series of videos that you have to pay for, but this one free offering has me strongly considering it even though they're quite expensive.

[Chief Filipino]

On 12/27/2021 at 10:18 AM, CrankAddict said:

 

And in general, what type of leather would make the most comfortable watch strap?  I hate the rigid, thick uncomfortable straps I've had in the past.  As I said, the scraps I got the other day feel great against the skin, but they also feel unlike any watch strap I've ever seen, so there must be a reason for that, right?

 

You might want to look into some kangaroo leather (a bit pricey though). It is very thin but durable and very strong. I've been able to bevel/burnish the edges on the projects I've made from kangaroo. You would probably need to have some sort of filler material in the center to give it some more bulk but it may have the characteristics you're looking for. 

You might want to try picking up some Tokonole to see if that will burnish the edges on chrome tan. 

I've made myself watch bands from vegtan and it definitely loosens up over time, not super flexible like chrome but it is comfortable. If you don't like the color of the natural vegtan you can always dye it, though I like to leave a lot of my personal items the natural veg color and watch it patina over time & use to a nice russet brown color. 

[Spyros]

9 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

Great points.  Tools are another area where I'm feeling like I should really spring for the good stuff.  I know in the woodshop I've never been satisfied long term with the cheapo option so I'm trying to learn from that experience.  The issue is that my local stores don't seem to carry the stuff the internet raves about so I get torn between supporting a local business and buying a premium tool.

Also, it's funny you mention the risk of losing a finger... I'm sure it's just a matter of familiarity at this point, but at the moment I'm finding myself far more anxious about cutting my finger with this Olfa razor knife than I am using the miter saw or band saw haha.

 

I have not tried his premium offering, but I have watched countless videos by Nigel, Chartermade, Corter, Mascon and others.  That said, the single best video I've found, by far, on saddle stitching was by Peter Nitz.  He has a series of videos that you have to pay for, but this one free offering has me strongly considering it even though they're quite expensive.

Yeah look I'll tell you my opinion again but keep in mind it's just one guy's opinion (and not very popular).

About hand tools, I don't think you should pay for expensive ones.  First of all you're a woodworker, if you have a bandsaw and even the most basic lathe you can easily make most your tools, and they will probably be better than the expensive "big name" ones.  Remember "the internet" gets easily impressed by tools with pretty wood because they are not woodworkers and they don't realise how simple they are.  Leatherworking tools are pretty basic as far as woodworking goes, I've made my own stitching ponies, saddler's clam, mawls and more, and I wouldn't trade them for anything.  I even put a pattern and instructions on this thread.  Now, unless you're also a knife maker, you can't really make your own blades, but here's my unpopular opinion: you don't need leatherworking blades.  I can't really think of a common cut you can't make with a combination of utility and X-acto knives, which also give you the benefit of never having to sharpen anything.  Those leatherworking knives are great, they absolutely work, and they're pretty, but remember they were invented at a time and place when disposable blades did not exist.  If they did exist maybe they wouldn't be invented at all, we don't know.  But cutting leather is all personal preferences anyway, try various things and decide for yourself, people regularly cut leather with anything you can imagine.   

You'll definitely need to buy all sorts of punches and little metal tools like skivers etc. My two favourite shops are Kevin Lee tools and Kemovan craft.  They are small businesses in China so you'll have to wait a little to receive, but they are true craftsmen and I recommend them both.  About buying from faraway places, remember that craftspeople have been ordering the good stuff from the farthest corners of the planet since Marco Polo was riding the silk road to China and probably long before that, so don't be afraid to honour that ancient tradition.  When those ancient merchants were coming back with exotic textiles and materials who do you think was buying them?  People like you and me 

Generally my opinion about hand tools is: keep it simple and cheap, make as many as you can, and save your money for machines.  When you get to the point where you're considering a sewing machine or an electric skiver or a clicker press, these things are not cheap, and you really get what you paid for.  Maybe spend some extra cash on polished stitching chisels, if they're not polished they really stick in the leather and you can't pull them out easily.   But for everything else, just don't get the absolute cheapest and it will likely be just fine.

About stitching, I think you will not regret paying some money to one of those online teachers.  I paid an English fellow called Phillip Jury and never regretted it, I probably saved that money back just from his tools & consumables buying advice.  But keep in mind a couple of things about stitching (again my unpopular opinion) that I've learned the hard way: Real people don't actually care so much.  Actual users of whatever it is you're making are not leatherworkers, they just want to see consistency and stitches lined up properly on a straight line, they don't really care if the stitches are slanted or not.  This holy grail of achieving a slanted stitch is only really a holy grail among some leatherworkers (not even all of them), but nobody else really cares.  In fact when you learn how to do both, show a few random people a slanted stitch and a straight stitch side by side and ask them which one they consider more visually pleasing, and you might be surprised by the result.  It's the same thing as dovetails Vs box joints in woodworking, dovetails is really something we do because we like it and we want to, and maybe to impress our woodworking friends, not because the user will necessarily appreciate it.  The reason I mention this is because all those stitching videos are always done in perfect conditions with a small piece of leather nicely mounted on a clam.  What the videos don't tell you is that in real life when you're trying to stitch in some awkward spot with the holes facing the wrong way or on the gusset or (God forbid) the interior of a massive bag you'll find you really need 3 or 4 hands to do it "properly" LOL

In real life you're probably better served by not using a pony or clam at all, which is the video below, and it produces a pretty slanted stitch in the front but a bit boring in the back:

The other thing which is probably a misconception, is this opinion that you can only achieve slanted (pretty) stitches if you do it by hand.  That's absolutely not true, this is what the stitches from my leather sewing machine look like:

Any sewing machine can do that, all it needs is an "LR" type needle, which is what mine came with by default.

So like I said, it is worth knowing how to do as many things as you can learn. And then once your bag of tricks is full, you can pick and choose which trick to use as you feel appropriate.  Just remember, same as in woodworking, there are many ways to skin a cat. And sometimes actual real world customers might actually prefer their cat not skinned at all

Edited December 29, 2021 by Spyros

[CrankAddict]

2 hours ago, Spyros said:

Yeah look I'll tell you my opinion again but keep in mind it's just one guy's opinion (and not very popular).

I really appreciate your detailed reply, you bring up some interesting points to think about. Thank you so much!

I definitely agree that I can (and will) make the clam, maul, and maybe some other stuff.  And for cutting lengths of leather I would be hard pressed to ever need to upgrade from this little olfa knife with the black blades.  The two things that I thought were probably out of my depth to try to make are good chisels/irons (like the KS blade ones) and a good skiving knife.  I played around with one of my wood chisels actually and it did a decent job of skiving down the end of some thick veg tan, but I read that you'd want a different bevel angle for leather versus wood to get clean cuts at the right taper.  True?  I know this isn't a replacement for a skiving machine, like if I need to skive several feet of something, but at this time I'm more focused on skiving the end of a leather watch strap or a watch strap keeper, both of which would be less wide than the blade itself.  Is there some box cutter/throwaway blade solution you use for that or is a dedicated skiving knife pretty much a necessity?

[Spyros]

35 minutes ago, CrankAddict said:

I really appreciate your detailed reply, you bring up some interesting points to think about. Thank you so much!

I definitely agree that I can (and will) make the clam, maul, and maybe some other stuff.  And for cutting lengths of leather I would be hard pressed to ever need to upgrade from this little olfa knife with the black blades.  The two things that I thought were probably out of my depth to try to make are good chisels/irons (like the KS blade ones) and a good skiving knife.  I played around with one of my wood chisels actually and it did a decent job of skiving down the end of some thick veg tan, but I read that you'd want a different bevel angle for leather versus wood to get clean cuts at the right taper.  True?  I know this isn't a replacement for a skiving machine, like if I need to skive several feet of something, but at this time I'm more focused on skiving the end of a leather watch strap or a watch strap keeper, both of which would be less wide than the blade itself.  Is there some box cutter/throwaway blade solution you use for that or is a dedicated skiving knife pretty much a necessity?

I mean any little japanese skiving knife will do the trick, and it doesn't need to be expensive at all.  The difference you get in the expensive ones are pretty much just the cocobolo handle (LOL, make your own), some other decorative BS like brass rivets, and the fact that they come pre-sharpened, but as a woodworker you know how to sharpen quickly so it's not an issue at all.  Remember leather is soft, you don't have to sharpen anywhere near as often or as deep as you do with woodworking chisels and planes.  9 times out of 10 all your knife will need is a strop (and of course you can now make a very pretty strop for yourself

(This is one I made for a chef recently)

The angle on a skiving knife edge is only 15 degrees.  There is no "right" taper, but sometimes you are trying to divide a 1mm leather into 0.5mm and 0.5mm, so the knife has to have such a sharp angle.  Because leather is very soft, you will rarely find secondary bevels in leatherworking tools, they're just all straight up single bevel with a sharp angle.  The only exception is probably those benchtop skiving blades, they typically get a bunch of belts put through them and they'd get dull pretty quickly without a secondary bevel.

I wouldn't bother trying to make your own KS blade type irons and chisels, it's just too much fuss.  Get something cheaper with polished teeth and off you go, better to spend your time doing actual leatherworking

[CrankAddict]

Ok, ok, you convinced me, I just ordered a $10 skiving knife.  It looks like Olfa actually makes one (hadn't seen it before) with replaceable blades but it's slightly more expensive than this one so we'll see how this works out.  I definitely appreciate all the info.  I'll get back to practicing and spend less time over-thinking everything

[mike02130]

12 hours ago, CrankAddict said:

I played around with one of my wood chisels actually and it did a decent job of skiving down the end of some thick veg tan,

The 10 buck red handled knife from Amazon and others is a POS.  You're better off reprofiling an old Stanley plane iron (blade).  You can get an excellent Japanese knife for $60. or less.

[PastorBob]

3 hours ago, mike02130 said:

The 10 buck red handled knife from Amazon and others is a POS.  You're better off reprofiling an old Stanley plane iron (blade).  You can get an excellent Japanese knife for $60. or less.

I got one of the $10 amazon knives.  It was sharp out of the box, but the metal is so soft, the edge of the blade is already rounded.  Where did you get the good one for $60?  Which to you recommend?

[mike02130]

2 hours ago, PastorBob said:

Where did you get the good one for $60?  Which to you recommend?

https://www.rmleathersupply.com/collections/skiving-cutting-knives/products/japanese-skiving-utility-knife-shirogami-smoke-razor-sharp?variant=33225081389165

[Spyros]

I've had this for a couple of years now, I use it every day and it just works.

https://www.amazon.com/WUTA-Leather-Cutting-Sharping-Skiving/dp/B07T3ZL9JD

Only thing wrong about it is the tang got a bit loose overtime coz I'm a bit heavy-handed with it, But I drilled and put a bit of rod through it and fresh epoxy and it's not going anywhere.  For woodworkers like the OP and me these are every day operations, it's nothing.

This particular knife is high speed steel, same stuff drill bits are made out of, but quality D2 or O1 tool steel is extremely cheap and hardening it is easy, there is no reason a $20 mass produced knife wouldn't have it, and it does have it.  Drill bits are designed to stay sharp for a reasonable time after cutting through other steel, I never had any doubt it would be fine cutting through leather.  And it is.

After that point you're paying for handle decorations like fancy polished timber and brass bolster, and you're paying for the initial sharpening before they ship it to you.  I don't care about decorations, this is a working knife for me, and I'm certainly not gonna pay someone to sharpen my knife.  Especially not this knife which has such a huge bevel that it's really easy to hold flat against a stone.  I have paid someone to sharpen scissors for me though, scissors are a PITB to sharpen properly.

If you don't know anything about tool steel and you don't trust yourself to make minor improvements on your tools, for sure go ahead and buy an expensive knife.  I'm ok, I'd rather spend my money on quality leather.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Spyros

[tsunkasapa]

45 minutes ago, Spyros said:

I've had this for a couple of years now, I use it every day and it just works.

https://www.amazon.com/WUTA-Leather-Cutting-Sharping-Skiving/dp/B07T3ZL9JD

Only thing wrong about it is the tang got a bit loose overtime coz I'm a bit heavy-handed with it, But I drilled and put a bit of rod through it and fresh epoxy and it's not going anywhere.  For woodworkers like the OP and me these are every day operations, it's nothing.

This particular knife is high speed steel, same stuff drill bits are made out of, but quality D2 or O1 tool steel is extremely cheap and hardening it is easy, there is no reason a $20 mass produced knife wouldn't have it, and it does have it.  Drill bits are designed to stay sharp for a reasonable time after cutting through other steel, I never had any doubt it would be fine cutting through leather.  And it is.

After that point you're paying for handle decorations like fancy polished timber and brass bolster, and you're paying for the initial sharpening before they ship it to you.  I don't care about decorations, this is a working knife for me, and I'm certainly not gonna pay someone to sharpen my knife.  Especially not this knife which has such a huge bevel that it's really easy to hold flat against a stone.  I have paid someone to sharpen scissors for me though, scissors are a PITB to sharpen properly.

If you don't know anything about tool steel and you don't trust yourself to make minor improvements on your tools, for sure go ahead and buy an expensive knife.  I'm ok, I'd rather spend my money on quality leather.

I got mine off eBay, and I think it was under $25. For $60 it better do the skiving for me.

[Klara]

Back to the original question of chrome vs. veg tan: The way I see it, most serious leatherworking videos and books (Stohlman, Valerie Michael, Nigel Armitage) are made with and for veg tan and the techniques shown just don't work with chrome tan. Advice about working with chrome tan I have found packaged as "fashion accessories in leather", "make your own handbag" - books along these lines. I haven't bought them, so don't have any details. But I believe that chrome tan often enough borriws techniques used with fabric - rolled edges are just a form of hem. And there is a glovers needle with an edged point that cuts through leather and replaces the awl - I strongly suspect it has its name because it was used for sewing gloves.

Personally, I mix and match whatever works for my project (many of my dog collars are veg tan exterior with chrome tan interior over the padding) and I'd recommend you do the same. Figuring out what works is a big part of the fun (at least for me).

Regarding the price of materials vs. the price of finished goods: I once thought the same thing as you. Then I discovered that good-quality veg tan IS expensive (if a price seems too good to be true,  something IS wrong! ). And pros who need to make repeatable goods can't work with scraps and leather from sales, they need to pay full price for a reputable suppliers permanent line. The brilliant thing is that as amateurs that need not concern us: We can buy whatever catches the eye and then find something to do with it. Or have a precise idea in mind and find the perfect piece of leather. And if we don't count our time - because it is a hobby and you don't get any money for sitting in front of the TV either  - the things we make can be a lot cheaper than if we would buy them. 

 

[CrankAddict]

6 hours ago, Klara said:

Regarding the price of materials vs. the price of finished goods: I once thought the same thing as you. Then I discovered that good-quality veg tan IS expensive (if a price seems too good to be true,  something IS wrong! ). And pros who need to make repeatable goods can't work with scraps and leather from sales, they need to pay full price for a reputable suppliers permanent line. The brilliant thing is that as amateurs that need not concern us: We can buy whatever catches the eye and then find something to do with it. Or have a precise idea in mind and find the perfect piece of leather. And if we don't count our time - because it is a hobby and you don't get any money for sitting in front of the TV either  - the things we make can be a lot cheaper than if we would buy them. 

 

You definitely bring up some good points there, and yes, my subsequent trip to the leather store did cost me a bit more   This time I bought Herman Oak vegtan english bridle by the square foot.  That said, it was still "only" $10/sq ft.  I think you could easily make 10 watch straps from 1 sq ft.  Those watch straps could sell for $60 each even as a no-name business.  So $600 of product from $10 of material is on a different scale from woodworking where a $1500 table might have $300 worth of maple in it.  Not that any of this matters for a hobbyist like me, but it was just nice to get into a hobby for once that turned out to be a little cheaper than expected versus the other way around haha.

 

Also, on the topic of education, I ordered the Armitage book as a first step.  Hopefully that will contain a lot of his wisdom in one resource.