DougCim

Haven't been at this long, but FWIW: Kangaroo is used for better lacing just because it's so strong. Kangaroo is "better" for braiding (in a way) because even without splitting, a roo hide is fairly consistent in thickness over its entire usable area. Kangaroo is also denser, and lays better because the flesh side is not fluffly like cowhide is. The kicker to this is that if you have a splitter, then cowhide can be split down (say from 2 mm thick to around 1 mm) where the whole back/flesh "fluffy" side is skimmed away. This does waste some "good" leather, but then you have a consistent thickness of the cowhide, and also the soft backside is gone now too, and it braids much better because it lays much more solid. Kangaroo does have a bit of thickness variation, but that is also mostly near the edges, where there is a lot more stretch also--so people would avoid using it all the way to the edge anyway. Among whipmakers, some people who braid roo do split it down, while some don't. If you wanted maximum strength + perfect consistency, you would need to find the thinnest spot, and then split the entire piece of leather down to that thickness. At the shop I buy at, (~1mm thick) kangaroo costs about 4X as much as typical 1.5mm thick cowhide, on a square-foot basis. Splitters are not cheap pieces of equipment, but it would cost much less overall to buy a splitter and work in cowhide, than it would to not buy a splitter and work in kangaroo that didn't need splitting. And for some uses, even kangaroo is split down: the roo used for purse and wallet linings, for example. -------- As far as "what is second-best to kangaroo", lots of golf gloves are made out of cabretta leather. It is fairly thin but still strong (though not nearly as much as roo would be). Judging from finished glove prices, a pair of cabretta golfing gloves would cost about one-third what a pair of roo gloves would. I haven't asked for it at the local shop. I haven't heard of any whipmakers using it, either--but just about ALL golfing gloves are made from it. There must be a reason. ~

Note that I am located in the US. I have seen where people (online) making whips will often use whitehide for the falls. The Ron Edwards book How to make Whips mentions it (and a method for home-curing) and describes these types of leathers separately: redhide, greenhide, rawhide, whitehide, and chrome- and bark-tanned leather. He notes that a disadvantage of whitehide is that "in humid conditions it will weep a salty liquid". What the Aussies call redhide is named Latigo in the US. If you ask for "redhide" at a US leather shop they'll say "we don't got any" but if you ask for Latigo they've usually got piles of it, it's standard stuff..... I asked at my local leather shop about possibly ordering some whitehide as I wanted a bit of it to see what was the big deal about using it, and they did not know what it was. I have also seen US whip-making people online mentioning that most leather places do not carry it. Is there a trade name for it in the US? ~

In the Ron Edwards book, he shows how to bevel the opposite corners. What I was curious about was if it was possible to skive half the strands the "other way"--so that as you moved from the handle to the point of the whip, all the strands would tuck under each previous strand, like a snake's scales. After making some diagrams I do not believe it is possible to really improve the situation in this regard, at least with a 2-over plait. With either arrangement (-skiving all the strands in the same direction or skiving half the strands in the opposite direction-) there are places that meet ideally and places that do not; changing the skiving on half the strands only moves the 'less-than-ideal' places around. It does not eliminate or reduce them. ~

Also another question, this about skiving: the book shows that all the strands are skived the same way, but this results in half of them being skived the wrong direction. Ideally (I would think) you would want each successive 2-over strand run to fit underneath the overhanging edge of the 2-over strand that preceded it, but if you skive the strands normally then half are tucked under, and the other half are laid over. To get them to lay as properly as possible, they would need to be skived in opposite directions based on what direction they are laid around the whip. Does anyone do this? I have not seen it mentioned. ~

I plaited a twisted-leather core in 4 strands, and then did an 8-plait over that. In the 8-plait I did the "handle" area in 1-over-1-under for a bit, then switched to 2-over-2-under for the rest of the length. I noticed that there are two strands (opposite each other and in the same direction) at the transition that are 3-over. I re-did this bit a few times but could not get rid of the 3-over strands. Is there a way to do a perfect transition from 1-over-1-under to 2-over-2-under or not? (the scissors are pointed to one of the 3-over strands) ....Also I was wondering, does the plaiting soap (Ivory and lard) need to be kept refrigerated or not? ~

The first time I tried to cut out the plaiting I made a layout/mental error and only cut it half as wide as needed, and only 3/4 as long as I had planned. So I threw that piece aside for the moment and tried again, and managed to do it the second attempt fairly accurately. After I plaited it around the shot core, the end result was pretty thick. .....And heavy. It will work for the dog use I mentioned, but isn't real lively, and wouldn't crack at all. It's only got the 4-plait, and I won't bother adding any more. Just for fun I decided to braid up the first attempt at cutting plaits, to see if I could make a smaller whip out of that. I left it without any core, and with a fall and cracker added it wouldn't crack at all. ,,,,, Then I got the bright idea of tying the little 3.5-foot whip onto the end of the heavy 4-foot whip. The first thing I noticed is that one eight-foot-whip is way more fun than two four-foot whips. :D The "stacked" whip will sometimes crack quite well, when it is lined up just right. The carry-through action is lousy because of the uneven transition from one whip to the other, but I expected that. Also I notice that it eats falls. I was using the same 2-3 oz. leather for the falls that I used for the braiding, and was ejecting crackers sometimes every 2nd or 3rd crack. I can see I'm gonna have to go to the leather store and get something thicker. For crackers I bought some mason's twine (white nylon/polyester/polypropylene), some Power Pro braided fishing line, and some cotton twine. I got the braided fishing line because I was aware of how strong it was for other uses. The 10-lb I got is rather fine, but doubled-over about ten times it does okay. Except for how it's colored.... And now I also see why some whips have crackers that are bright red. I had the fishing-line cracker on and was outside, and the fall end broke off (again) and the dark green cracker took off and landed..... in the green grass. And is still laying out there somewhere on the lawn, several hours later. The hardware store sells hot-pink mason's twine, and I think I may switch to using that. Also I am working on a longer, twisted leather-core snakewhip now, 12-ft or so thong. 8-plait over 4 is what I am thinking of at the moment. ~

The wooden handle was because I wanted to use it to make the shot bag around, and also to get the widths for the plaits. I found some 3-foot pieces at the hardware store, but didn't want the bother of gluing them together. The original reason I got interested in whips at all was to have a short one to carry while bicycling, to ward off threatening dogs. The pocket snakes and signal whips sold online are built rather thin which is better for cracking but not so great for striking an animal with; I wanted something thicker that would tend to hit more and cut less (if any situation comes to that). The last picture is the shot-loaded core, 36" long (the length of the dowel) and an 18-inch end redhide piece. I had intended to do two braided layers, but may just leave it at the one depending on how thick it ends up after the first layer.

The shot ended up being #9, still looks workable. I need a wooden broomstick to try the "post-fill" shotbag method, and no place around had one (the only replacement broom handles they had were plastic and metal). I've got a couple wooden-handled brooms, but I don't feel like cutting one of them up. I do have the shotbag mostly done so far; end still needs a bit of tapering. This is for a pocket/snake whip that was planned about 4" long (thong) but may end up 4.5 feet plus a lash six inches or so. The use is to carry while bicycling to have something to swing at nasty dogs, so I wanted it heavier rather than light. It may not crack, but it won't need to. As it is I am planning a 4-strand plait and then an 8-strand done directly over that. I noticed that the books say that more strands=better flexibility, but less strands=faster plaiting work. Would it be worthwhile to cut each of the 4-strands into two strands, but braid them as four groups of two strands? Sewing this stuff is a pain (especially since nobody makes thimbles big enough for a larger man to comfortably use!!! Does anyplace make BIG thimbles? I have a Prym #10 17mm now, it was the largest I could find online or in local stores.... a 19mm would be about right). I put a bunch of dressing on both sides of the leather and heated it a bit with a hair dryer to help it soak in, but it didn't make a lot of difference. Does water help? ~

A couple other questions have come up. Question #1: In the Ron Edwards book, he shows a diagram of a cowhide side with various areas marked off as to their suitability for plaiting. He does not explain which end is the head end. I would guess, pointing towards the right side? Question #2: I bought a 2-3oz (about 2mm thick) side of natural color cowhide, and it has a very obvious (and considerably large) "neck" area on one end. What is the leather in the neck area good for? I do not recall either of the two books I have mentioning it. I cut a small piece out of one of the "armpits" of the side to make something, and could feel how much more stretchy it was compared to the main areas of the leather. I pulled around a bit on the neck leather, and it does not seem overly stretchy toward the center area. Aside from any scars and tick marks, is the central leather from the neck good enough for plaiting or not?... -fini-

The duct tape method was what the guy at the Tandy leather store mentioned he used as well. He said he used neatsfoot oil and soap as plaiting soap though, and none of the mentions of plaiting soap in the two books I have involve neatsfoot oil, that is only used in dressings. (I just bought a jar of dressing for now, Fiebing's Aussie) I've got some Ivory soap bars and have some store-bought lard around; is adding the kerosene necessary? It's the one ingredient I don't have on hand... I'll have to find somewhere around that pumps kerosene and buy a few ounces. As to the shot: I had the local gun shop order me a bag of either #9 or #12, the guy said he'd ask for the smallest size they carry, which is usually #12. I noticed on one of these (few) whipmaking forums that a fellow in the UK mentions using #15 shot, but I asked on a US gun board and was told that #12 was the smallest stuff used for firearms; it's the size of shot used in 22LR shotshells, for example. Someone else said that US and UK shot sizes are not the same measures, but I couldn't find anything online that compared the two or said that they were the same. This is the part I noticed: you don't sew the shot bag by "piling a bunch of loose shot on a piece of fabric, and then trying to sew up a bag around it". You make the shot bag empty, and then after it is made, you can then pack it with shot much better. So if this works best for the shot bag, I am wondering why not use the same technique for the whole whip? After all, you don't really care if the shot bag itself is really packed entirely full, so long as the shot is carried evenly inside and the proper volume for the plaiting is filled out. (-and of course, the whip has to be constructed so that you can add the shot after the plaiting is done, which the usual shotwhip method doesn't allow-) I will likely try it, as if it is a terrible failure there won't really be any "wasted" parts--it can be un-braided and a smaller-diameter shot bag would just need to made for the existing plaits, and the over-thick shot bag could be used packed full and used with other wider plaits cut for it. ~

Hello all. I've taken an interest in whip making recently, firstly in shorter shot-loaded types. I have some equipment on order, so I cannot begin yet. I have bought two books, "How to make whips" by R Edwards and "Whips and whipmaking" by D Morgan. That has explained quite a bit, but led to more questions. In his description of how shot whips are made, Edwards says that the bag is sewn along one edge, filled and then sewn shut. The whip is then plaited over this. My problem is I don't see how this can avoid resulting in one of two undesirable situations. If the shot bag is packed rather tightly with shot, then there will be an excessive amount of stress on the seam of the shot bag. The plaits will not be braided around the shot bag as tightly as the shot bag is already stretched by the shot inside. And the first couple times you swing the whip, the shot is going to sink into the tail end even more, distorting the whip's taper and stressing the seam of the shot bag even further. So what if you packed the shot bag a bit looser? This would allow the shot bag to stretch along with the plaits, as the whip is broken in.... Well then the problem (I'd think) would be that you could not get a reliable taper to the whip, at least in the loaded portion. As you're braiding the butt end, some of the shot in the butt-end of the loosely-packed bag will get pushed into the tail end--so the end result is that the butt end would be thinner than you wanted, and the tail end will be fatter. ..... What I'm wondering is if it's worthwhile to construct the whip so that the butt end is openable--all the plaiting, and the shot bag as well. The shot bag is made slightly oversized (too fat) to fit inside the plaits, and the plaits are cut for the profile desired and then woven around the empty shot bag. After the whip is fully plaited, then the shot is filled from the butt end, where it can pack on its own into the whip as the whip is swung. The butt end of the shot bag only needs to be bound shut with some lace, as there's no real stress on it. This would also provide a way to "adjust" the tightness of the shot packing inside. --- There's not a whole lot of info on shot loading, in either books or online really. Are all shot-loaded whips made basically the same way? [end]