goldpony
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Posts posted by goldpony
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Thanks Bill!
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Steve's pricing is right on.
My link these will show wickett and craig colours of skirting, Not sure which your saddle was made out of. The saddle maker will be able to tell you exactly which .
My gut feeling would be not to put another $1000,00 into that saddle. Is there a demand for this saddlemakers saddles.?? if so you may be better off selling it if you think the deficiencies are such that you can't use it. It may be just right for someone else. Just my thoughts.
Andy
Hi Andy, The color is the middle one below "russet carving" and above "black skirting" in W&C Skirting Swatches. I paid US$4,000 for this custom saddle with a 14 1/2" seat and a tree made for a wide, short-back horse. Finding the right horse/rider combination might be a challenge. I realise I'm going to lose money either way.
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Replacing the seat is a major repair,You are looking at a day and half labor.My guess would be 600 labor and a material cost of about 200.If I were to do that,I would charge time plus materials.On repairs like this it is hard to give a price until you get done.The rear cinch should be around 80.This is just a appox. figer,some might do it for less and some would charge . Steve
Thanks Steve. US$1,000 would have been my estimate. It's good to know a rough estimate. Do you stock the Wickett & Craig brown leather or is it a custom order? Cheri
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Hello to all who have been following my custom saddle woes - Saddlemaker Warranty, Seat Jockey Wrinkles, Gullet Width, and ? Cinch Placement.
As the saddle is only two months old, should I get the seat jockey(s) replace now by another saddlemaker? Unforturnately, I do not feel that C.E. Gessell of Black Horse Leatherworks & Saddlery will honor the warranty and repair the saddle. The leather is Wickett & Craig brown. I'm sure every dye lot will be slightly different in color, but the leathers might blend better now. I'm guessing this is a major repair as there is a padded inlaid seat. I also need to have a longer back cinch made (can send the original that is too short). Can somone give me a rough estimate of cost and timeframe? One good thing, there is no tooling/carving on this part of the saddle.
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Goldpony,
A bit of a mess here now.
Why is the saddlemaker refusing to fix the very evident problem with the seat jockey? You stated there is a 6 month warrenty. Is that warrenty in your contract or verbal? Looks like the saddlemaker is on the hook for everything. Measured the horse for a custom tree and determined the rigging position. I see you are in Canada. Is the saddlemaker in Canada? Do not know where you are on this, but would suggest it is time to start crossing you T's and doting your I's. Would start by informing the saddlemaker of your concerns in writing for starters.
Good luck.
Bob
Hi Bob,
Yes, a big ugly mess.
Our entire agreement was verbal. 
We talked in person, on the telephone, and by e-mail. The saddlemaker's warranty is listed on the website (www.blackhorseleather.com) under Customer Service. The saddlemaker is in Monroe, WA. I have done my best to inform the saddlemaker of my concerns. I do not no if my e-mails or telephone messages have been reviewed.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Cheri
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That is a tough one, so much of saddle fit ...etc is subjective so in some respects it is hard to say what is defective or not. (seat jockeys) Obviously what they consider ok materials is not the same as some of us here that are professional saddlemakers but does that mean the seat jockeys have failed??..... Rigging position is also subjective.as is "gullet measurements" equating to tree fit.. what I would consider ideal you or someone else may have a dissenting opinion. A short rear cinch is a no brainer , it should be replaced if the saddlemaker fit your horse prior to building the saddle.
So to me the question is : Did you as a customer have an assurance of satisfaction from the business that you were dealing with.?? When he fit your horse was this discussed.??
In my business I have always had the policy that I try to do what ever it takes to give the customer satisfaction. A few times in 30 years I have built the customer another saddle and on one occasion I refunded the the $$ as I came to the conclusion that I couldn't please the customer. This is not always the case in this industry
So to my way of thinking the options are
Try and work out your differences with the maker as amiably as possible. maybe come to some middle ground... ( preferable)
Demand a refund.... may or maynot work
Hire a lawyer
I hope you can resolve this in a way that is pleasing to both parties.
Andy Knight,
Yes. We discuss saddle fit. I was assured by the saddlemaker that the saddle would fit me and my horse. It was felt that I would be very happy with the saddle. The saddlemaker came to measure the horse for the tree. The tree was custom-made by Bill Bean. The tree was brought out and placed on the horse's back. I rode dressage for many years and we discussed the rider position, type of seat, cantle, horn, color of leather, amount of carving. I did state that I did not want ANY stamping. Notes were taken in the saddlemaker's notebook. Unfortunately the saddle has a complete border stamp. I ASSUMED (My fault - Gotta love hindsight!) that the fittings would be plain stainless steel, instead they are stainless with black inlay. I wanted the conchos (old tyme pattern I found from Mincer Silversmiths) and carving to stand out against the plain brown leather.
I have tried e-mailing and telephoning. My telephone calls were not returned. I did receive and e-mail
stating "DO NOT SEND THE SADDLE BACK TO ME. The parcel won't be accepted."
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Gold Pony,Is the gullet width what you ordered?Is the Rigging set at the position you ordered?The seat should be fixed but if you ordered this saddle with the gullet spread and the rigging placement as it is it will be you that need to get it changed at your expence.Just my opinion.
Steve
Hi Steve, The saddlemaker came out to measure the horse for a custom tree. I wanted 3-way drop rigging ( I had used this type before and it worked for this horse). The saddlemaker did not feel that was necessary and went with 7/8 rigging. I very much appreciate your opinion and thanks so much for responding.
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The person who made my saddle, C.E. Gessell of Black Horse Leatherworks & Saddlery, will not honor the warranty and refuses to take the saddle back for repair. There are a three long posts - Seat Jockey Wrinkles, Gullet Width, and ? Cinch Placement - that describe what the problems are. In addition the back cinch is too short, the left seat jockey is curling and now the slotted conchos are loose. I received the US$4,000 saddle in mid September. There is the standard six month warranty against defects in materials and workmanship. What can I do?
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Just using a 1" pad will not necessarily raise the front up and level the saddle. Because of the flatter bar angles behind and steeper angles in front, the tree will raise up relatively more behind and be even more downhill. If I was younger and geometry/trigonomtry was closer to the top of the brain cells, I could figure how much. It isn't raised up much more behind, but is some.
Some people favor shims and if they work for someone great. I am not sure I could really figure out where to put them and how much, and then not get an edge lump with some systems I have seen. You hear some anecdotal stuff about them concentrating forces more than dissapating force. The pad I have had the best luck with has been a wedge pad with a 3/4 tapering insert between the layers - fuller at the front and tapers to the back. Rick Ricotti developed them and Toklat is selling them under that name. They worked pretty well under my wider saddles for younger and narrower horses. They will raise the front some, less side to side roll, and not raise the back.
Bruce, I just tried the Ricotti 3/4" Wool Pad. It did just what you said. Thanks so much for the recommendation! Cheri
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Kseidel (Keith) - I have contacted the saddlemaker and am awaiting a reply. I am hopeful that the warranty will be honored. Will update in a few days. Cheri
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Hidepounder (Bobby), Frank & Timbo (Tim) - My thanks to you!
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I also totaly agree with Kieth and Troy.. the down side is that the softer flanky leather won't wear as well .
AndyKnight, Thank you for reviewing my post. I value your opinion. My reining trainer has one of your saddles - Wow - Beautiful!
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As a long time custom saddlemaker I must agree with the abovepost. These wrinkle are caused by Flanky leather. Saddle seats should be cut from the very
best part of the side. When laying out your pattern for the seat the front of the seat should be towards to shoulder (top) of side with cantle part of seat towards
the bottom of the side which will give an even thickness of seat leather on both side of the seat when cut out. By inspecting the side before laying out your
seat you will be able to determine the most prime part of the side and the flanky area which can be used for your swell cover which will require alot of
stretch when fitting to tree. This should help avoid those wrinkles in your pictures. Hope this has been of some help to you.
spur2009, Yes. Most helpful. Thank you very much!
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I concur with Troy"s assessment. The seat leather is cut out of the wrong part of the hide. It is cut too close to the soft flank. The other side is firm because it is in a firm part of the hide. The surface is separating from the flesh inside the leather, causing the deep wrinkles. The technical term for this is "piping." It does not appear to be fitted incorrectly, just a poor choice of leather and hide placement. The only way to fix it is to replace the seat. It should be covered under the warranty as a defect in materials and workmanship, but good luck getting them to replace it. Saddles made with proper leather will not do this even with a great deal of abuse.
Keith Seidel
Keith, Thank you for your honest opinion. I will ask the saddlemaker to repair the seat. There is a six month warranty for defects in materials and workmanship. I paid US$4,000 for the saddle.
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It doesn't matter that you stand on a ladder. It doesn't matter that your horse is wide. The diagnoses is correct. That seat jockey is wrinkled because it is flanky leather. We saddle makers cut our seats out of the best part of a side, or at least I do. Most custom makers will. That seat was probably cut out of a right side with the left jocky a little too high in the side and it was getting into the flank area. Flanky leather is leather that generally is from the flank area of a hide. The area that a calf roper grabs to flank a calf, right in front of the back leg at the break of the belly. It is fairly loose skin, not tight grained and firm like the leather that is up higher in the butt and middle of the back. You didn't do anything to cause those wrinkles and I dont know of anything to fix them unless you replace the seat, which isn't likely to happen.
I understand that you are putting the right fender up over the seat and saddleing because it is too much for you to throw it over. The other side isn't wrinkling because it is in firmer leather. Many people, after putting their saddle in place will throw the left fender up on the seat to get to the onside rig and latigo without interference of the fender which is what someone was referring to earlier.
In short.This saddle makers opinion is, that seat jockey is too flanky.
TroyWest, Thank you for the explanation and your opinion as a saddlemaker. I "searched Flanky Leather" in our Forums and didn't find much.
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I've never heard the expression "flanky leather". I will do a search on the forum to educate myself. I use a western saddle stand with wheels to take the saddle to and from the horse. Also the saddle is stored in a heated tackroom on this stand. I would understand if this was happening to the right side of the saddle, as that is the side that I put the cinches and stirrup over the horn. The right side is completely smooth and flat. This is going to sound pathetic, but I cannot throw the saddle onto his back - I am not strong enough. I use a small step ladder to saddle him. He's a good soul and never moves a muscle! Pretty impressive for a five year old! Yes, the horse is wide. Here is a pic -
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bdt46, What you're saying makes total sense. You would think this should be happening to the "other" side.
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Looks like the leather on that side of the seat might be a little soft or "flanky" int hat area of the seat jockey. If you throw the fender and stirrup up over the seat while saddling your horse, the the backward bend on the seat jockey could be causing a little stretch which in turn causes the wrinkles!
Hi bdt46! I do exactly what you are saying but on the right side. I tack the horse up on the left side, putting the front & back cinches & stirrup over the horn on the right side of the saddle. The more I ride in the saddle, the more wrinkles.
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Hi. Can anyone tell me why this is happening to the left seat jockey? The right side is smooth.
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The latigo has come loose and slipped down. How do I wrap it evenly and make it tight? The latigo is short and wraps around four times. I've tried to redo it by looking at the other one, but it just keeps coming undone! I did a search and read the results, but I still don't get it.
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JRedding, I sent you a PM. In my post I was paying you a compliment!
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Billy, Me too - after spending US$4,000 for a custom made saddle.
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Hi guys. I have been riding in my custom saddle for over a month now. I trail ride six days a week. I am hoping a longer cinch and the Ricotti pad will make a difference.
Raised Nail On Horn Cap
in General Saddlery Discussion
Posted · Report reply
One of the small nails at the top of the horn cap (designed by Mincer Silver in white bronze) is raised. How do I level it without damaging the horn cap? Happy New Year to all!