hey thanks guys for the info. Sorry it took me a couple days to get back to my computer. I should be able to figure it out now, I hope. Well thanks again. And in responce to one question I have B.G.s encycopeda. And it does show some longer knots but they all work out to a four bight knot I am trying to figure out how to make a long 6 or 8 bight over two under two type knot.