rigging type

[figthnbullrider]

what type or rigging do you use, also what positions do you like and why

[YRsaddles]

There are many different types of rigging out there...Typically the two that are used most often are "tree" type rigging in which the rigging uses rings or dees and then the rigging leather is nailed directly to the tree, the the secong most common is inskirt rigging, where rigging cees or plates are rivoted in between the skirts. Both are very good and thats what I'd recommend that you use one or the other.

As far as position. that REALLY depends on the horse and how the tree sits on the horses back, also another thing to take into consideration is what the saddle is being used for, roping, barrel racing, trail riding ect. there REALLY are no "rules" as far as rigging and position generally the horse and rider dictate what rigging and position I will use. Did that answer your question? or did you want to know what was my preference on which types were the quickest and easiest to install?

Edited January 9, 2008 by YRsaddles

[figthnbullrider]

thanks for the response, those are all types of riggins that i have herd of. i am planing to use the tree riggin, but i want to know what yall use and why. the position i plan on using is a 7/8. for an all around general ranch saddle. it will be used on many diffrent horses

[bruce johnson]

I would seriously consider a drop plate/flat plate/Montana plate rigging. More leather, but more stirrup swing and I think balanced pull and strength for a using saddle. I have a Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pickup in the yard, so I am pretty open minded. I have built dee ring on skirt/off skirt, in-skirt, dropped ring, EZ dee, and plates. I like plates the best for all around use. Each of the others (maybe not the round ring or EZ dees so much) have some limitations for me.

[wood]

I like flat plate riggings on all around ranching saddles.

[mudman]

Anyone use the old style rig riggin'?

[oldtimer]

Anyone use the old style rig riggin'?

Hey mudman. Since I build old time saddles I use the old Sam stagg rigging, set at full or at most, 7/8 position . The Sam Stagg rigging works fine ( as it did "once upon a time in the west" ) and is probably much stronger than a "regular" front rigging attached to the tree with screws

My next project will be a "Vaquero Wade" saddle,a half seat saddle built on a Timberline Wade tree, Sam Stagg rigging and exotic wood for the horn cap. Vaquero Wade is my name of the project.

Edited January 18, 2008 by oldtimer

[Alan Bell]

Some rigging considerations: First off you have to know the reason behind the different positions. Full puts the saddle as far back as it can go. Center Fire puts it as far forward as it can go. That being said you have to consider the tree bars. If full is considered to be positioned so that the center of the pull or cinch ring is in line with the widest part of the bar (which is usually in line with the center of the horn, but not always) then on any placement besides full you have to consider how much bar there is in front of the full position as this will eventually interfere with the horses shoulder movement. Also the shape of the rock and twist of your bars become a factor. There was a discussion when i first joined this forum about the "sweet spot" in relation to a center fire saddle. There are two sweet spots on the horse to factor in. 1) is the pocket on the withers 2) is the place where the girth settles. As Rod and Denise Nikkels point out "every tree maker does things differently" it is wise to get a tree and put it on the type of horse you think you or your customer will be riding the most if possible. Some saddle trees may work fine in the 5/8 position but because of the bar shape they will interfere with shoulder movement since they have more sticking out past the center of the widest part of the bar (or center of the horn). This is all irregardless of the type of rigging you use. As to types: Flat plate is widely considered to be the strongest but also adds the most weight to the saddle. A properly done in skirt is also considered to very strong but it has to be done properly so that the pull of the cinch is transfered up to the tree and not just on to the leather. All this being said for an all around ranch saddle to be used on many different horses some for ranch work I would consider looking at whether the tree I am considering will work in the 3/4 position. I would try and get it as far forward as i could because this will place the rider in a forward position keeping him or her better balance over the horses center of gravity.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan

Ridin' through the storm. Riding through the calm

Bob Marley - Ride Natty Ride

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Sorry Alan but we have to disagree with your basic premise that rigging determines tree position. The idea that rigging position affects where the saddle sits is a misconception, unless the tree doesn’t fit at all. If the shape of the bars match the shape of the horse’s back, it is like setting two spoons together. With any movement at all, they adjust themselves so the bowls fit together. In the same way, the saddle will move till its curves most closely match the curves on the horse’s back – rightly or wrongly. It is only when the curves don’t match well anywhere that the rigging position can affect the saddle position.

Part of what we see as a problem is the misconception that there is correct "sweet spot" for the cinch, that it needs to hang vertically and sit right behind the horse’s elbow. Why? It can go anywhere on the underline of the horse between the back of the elbow (so it doesn’t rub there) and the back of the sternum. The old center fire rigs didn’t have their cinches sitting behind the elbow. And there is no rule that says it has to be vertical either, though it can be. That depends a lot of the shape of the horse. If the horse narrows a lot towards the front, the cinch will tend to move there and will run forward at an angle. In some horses, the back of the shoulder blade is above or even back of the spot behind the elbow where people think the cinch “should” go. To make a cinch hang vertically here, the rigging would hang off the front bar tips or the saddle would be placed on top of the shoulder blades. On a horse like this, the cinch will slant forward, but if the tree fits, it will not cause it to move out of position.

So what effect does a rigging position have on the fit if it doesn’t move the saddle out of position? A rigging basically pulls down. Even if it slants forward, the vector laws you talked about in that old post, Alan, say that the majority of the force is down, with only a little forward if the cinch slants a bit forward. Practically, if a tree fits well the shape holds it in place and the small amount of forward force on it by a slanting cinch will not cause interference with the shoulders. If it does, it is because it doesn’t fit well and the cinch can pull it forward. More problems are caused by riggings set too far ahead. The further forward the rigging is set, the further forward the downward pull is centered, regardless of how they are made. Most full riggings are made so that front cinch pulls down solely or primarily on the front of the tree. Unless the back cinch is done up snug to help balance that (and we all know how many people ride with hanging back cinches) it has a much greater probability of interfering with the shoulders due to the increased pressure on the front of the tree, in effect reducing the relief built into the bar tips for the shoulder blades. Though it seems counter-intuitive, the best place for rigging on a horse where you are worried about shoulder interference is further back as it spreads the pull over the whole tree, not just the front of it. That means less pressure on the front of the bars, giving more room for the shoulder blades to slide under the relief built into the bar tips, which happens during the un-weighted phase of their stride.

[David Genadek]

A big Amen to what Rod said!

David Genadek

[Alan Bell]

"I see!" said the blind man! So moving the rigging position back pulls more evenly on the whole tree - this part I get. Won't moving the rigging back cause some people to cinch up where they are use to and in affect move the whole thing too far forward onto the withers? I guess I am thinking about a "not so well" made saddle tree where the relief built into the shape of the bar tips is little or almost not existent. And, it makes sense that the saddle will want to settle into the sweet spot with the shape of the bars and the horses back like cupping spoons and if the tree fits the cinch will not cause it to move out of position but can't the same "some people" cinch the saddle up in such a way that has the cinch working against the saddle finding it's sweet spot and a different rigging position would make that less likely to happen? Could this be part of the reason for some of the white spots on some horses? And does a cinch setting at an angle, though it may not pull the saddle out of the sweet spot, apply more pressure laterally and thus contribute to the white spot or at least a bit of discomfort for the horse kinda like me walking around with a belt that sat crooked around my waist? (I know... My belly won't allow this to happen but I'm speaking figuratively) Or wouldn't a person that rides more on the swells like a roper, riding on a full double cause more discomfort to the horse than if he was on a 3/4? because the full will already be putting more pressure on the withers and then the riders position compounds this. (My little pea brain get running on that stupid hamster wheel and it seems to never end). I was reading Martin Black's Western Horseman article and thinking about this post and wondering how any of the different rigging positions affect a persons ability to stay balanced i.e. what is the rigging position for a jockey that basically rides with all his weight leaned forward over the horses withers compared to what is most affective for say a cutter? compared to what is most affective for a roper or even a barrel racer. Are there rigging positions that work better for different disciplines? Correct me if I am wrong but David, don't you make a different seat for women? Would there be a different rigging position that would work better for women? (Must get off this hamster wheel!!!) Oh yeah, aren't the different rigging positions meant to move the saddle forward or backward on the horses back and if not then why the different positions? I know about the different roping style associated with center fire but then why full vs 7/8 vs 3/4 etc.?

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Bend down low...Let me tell you what I know!!

Bob Marley - Bend Down

[bruce johnson]

Alan,

If you would have asked me a year ago, I fell in with the rigging having a bigger influence on where a saddle sits than it does. There is at least one scenario where I see that it does. First off is the rider who has been taught from the get-go that you hang the cinch straight down behind the elbow. A lot of us that grew up with full double or close riggings learned that. I learned as a kid to lay my saddle further forward of where is should be, and slide it back until it fell into the right spot. This was to lay down the wool in the direction it was put on, smooth out any blanket wrinkles, lay down the horses hair, and Grandpa said so. When I got smarter and older, I was riding roping and cutting saddles with the full double Dee riggings and so the cinch behind the elbow rule kind of fit. Not because of rigging position, but that was the sweet spot for the tree. With the popularity of Wades and flat plates, we have people trained in the cinch position all of the sudden strapping on 5/8 riggings to the elbow and holding them there with breast collars.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Won't moving the rigging back cause some people to cinch up where they are use to and in affect move the whole thing too far forward onto the withers?

YES!!!!! That is what people DO do, especially if they are convinced that the cinch should hang vertically and their horse isn't built for that to happen. But, unless they cut the horse in two with the cinch and have nylon all around and minimal padding, as they ride and things stretch and work into place, that saddle will move itself into where it should go - IF it has a place that it does fit and IF they don't hold it too far forward with a breast collar - VERY common problem.

can't the same "some people" cinch the saddle up in such a way that has the cinch working against the saddle finding it's sweet spot and a different rigging position would make that less likely to happen?

The cinch working against the saddle finding its sweet spot would only happen if the saddle was placed too far forward, not too far back. Moving the rigging further forward would mean they wouldn't place it as far out of place forward, but it has the problems talked about in the previous post. So if they don't use a breast collar, their saddle will fit better after it has moved back if it has a 7/8th, 3/4 etc rigging than if it has a full rigging. And if they use a breast collar to hold it out of place, there is more pressure pulling right down over the shoulder blades on a full rigging than one that is further back. So either way, a rigging that is further back would benefit the horse. And having people learn about proper saddling and dispelling the myth of the vertical cinch right behind the elbow would help a whole lot more.

And does a cinch setting at an angle, though it may not pull the saddle out of the sweet spot, apply more pressure laterally and thus contribute to the white spot or at least a bit of discomfort for the horse kinda like me walking around with a belt that sat crooked around my waist?

Not quite sure what you mean by applying more pressure laterally. On the sides? But not sure why that would contribute to the white spots. Could you explain more, please?

Or wouldn't a person that rides more on the swells like a roper, riding on a full double cause more discomfort to the horse than if he was on a 3/4?because the full will already be putting more pressure on the withers and then the riders position compounds this.

BINGO!

if not then why the different positions?

We have been working through "They Saddled the West" by Lee Rice. He has a chapter called The Montana Three-Quarter Saddle where he talks about east, full double, meeting west, center fire, and people deciding to work a compromise. Interesting history, but we don't know more than that about the origins, and I'll leave the rest of the questions to those who know more about riggings than I do…

I learned as a kid to lay my saddle further forward of where is should be, and slide it back until it fell into the right spot.

That's the method we use.

we have people trained in the cinch position all of the sudden strapping on 5/8 riggings to the elbow and holding them there with breast collars.

EXACTLY. And this is what is hurting a lot of our rope horses today. Go to any roping and you see half? more? of the horses saddled this way. A quote from a recent Western Horseman on breast collars: "Some horses naturally wear a saddle farther back than others. If I roped on them without a breast collar I'd have to move my saddle up after every run." In other words, he saddles too far forward on his horse, and holds it there with a breast collar. A sure recipe for sore shoulders on your horse.

[YRsaddles]

Do any of ya'll use an equimeasure? it sorta takes all the quess work out of tree and rigging selection..Not to step on anyones toes...but with all the technology out there today..I don't understand why saddle makers as a whole don't use it...yes part of it is tradition and I do know that there are gimmicks out there..but some of it makes our job easier...and personally I'm ALL for something that makes speeds things up and puts more money in my pocket.

Dave

[David Genadek]

Do any of ya'll use an equimeasure? it sorta takes all the quess work out of tree and rigging selection..Not to step on anyones toes...but with all the technology out there today..I don't understand why saddle makers as a whole don't use it...yes part of it is tradition and I do know that there are gimmicks out there..but some of it makes our job easier...and personally I'm ALL for something that makes speeds things up and puts more money in my pocket.

Dave

I get a lot of them in but the guy focuses on the whithers so they really aren't long enough to tell you how much rock so you have to tell them to get the extension that they sell. I find I get just as good information by having them do a back map. It is a lot cheaper and gives them a training tool that they can use to see if thier training techniques are working. It also gives me information I can plug into a data base. Any method is only as good as your ability to analyze the horse manship and how it is affecting the conformation of the animal. In my opinion you do not want to start making a tree for every individual horse. Most horse's will fall into a back type once you have addressed all the horsemanship issues. If you don't there will be problems.

It is pretty hard to talk riggings when there is no consensus on where a saddle should fit and how it should fit. Although there is an abundance of information in regarding actual bio mechanics our craft tends to lean toward a regional consensus of confusions so with in a market if you adhere to that you will find success if it works or not. Saddle fit is a complex problem that involves the shape of the horse (which is dependant on the horsemanship) the shape of the human and the dynamics of all the movement. There is an endless array of interpretations of how all these things come together.

My advice to everyone trying to learn is to learn the anatomy, understand the biomechanics and then worry about the politics.

David Genadek

[Doug Mclean]

What is an equimeasure? There are some other reasons for having all of the different riggin positions. Next time you get to see some old time pictures pay attention to the conformation of the horses. In the Montana area a lot of the old time ranch horses were more of a Thoroughbred body type. Some of them weren't the greatest for conformation with the angle of the front shoulders being steeper than most horses today. My point is with the withers more over the front legs that sweet spot for the cinch and the tree probabably worked out better in the 3/4 position than it does today. The other thing you didn' t see many breastcollars in the early pictures not sure that was the reason. From my own personal experience I have felt like my breastcollar tended to pull my saddle to the front when I didn't have my cinch real tight. But by the same token it also kept me out of trouble when riding in some rough country.

Is this equimeasure something new?

[YRsaddles]

I use equimeasures and yes they are short and you gotta get the western extension..yet another way they get money of you..but it really does work...if put on correctly and allowed to set properly...you can see the scapula and EVERYTHING on a horses back that we need to know about...so fit shouldn't be a problem anymore...but I personally don't think enough saddle makers use them...TOO EASY

And yes I agree with the part a horses back will change and that a saddle that fits near perfect might not fit well later on as the horse ages or fills out as the training progresses...all I was saying was that there are A LOT of things out there that can make our job easier... I tend to use the equimeasure as a starting point and plan tree selection accordingly..allowing for possible changes in the horses back down the road.

Dave

Edited January 21, 2008 by YRsaddles

[YRsaddles]

What is an equimeasure? There are some other reasons for having all of the different riggin positions. Next time you get to see some old time pictures pay attention to the conformation of the horses. In the Montana area a lot of the old time ranch horses were more of a Thoroughbred body type. Some of them weren't the greatest for conformation with the angle of the front shoulders being steeper than most horses today. My point is with the withers more over the front legs that sweet spot for the cinch and the tree probabably worked out better in the 3/4 position than it does today. The other thing you didn' t see many breastcollars in the early pictures not sure that was the reason. From my own personal experience I have felt like my breastcollar tended to pull my saddle to the front when I didn't have my cinch real tight. But by the same token it also kept me out of trouble when riding in some rough country.

Is this equimeasure something new?

not really..been around for a while...just another way to fit a horse...and so easy to use