rigging type

[Alan Bell]

"I see!" said the blind man! So moving the rigging position back pulls more evenly on the whole tree - this part I get. Won't moving the rigging back cause some people to cinch up where they are use to and in affect move the whole thing too far forward onto the withers? I guess I am thinking about a "not so well" made saddle tree where the relief built into the shape of the bar tips is little or almost not existent. And, it makes sense that the saddle will want to settle into the sweet spot with the shape of the bars and the horses back like cupping spoons and if the tree fits the cinch will not cause it to move out of position but can't the same "some people" cinch the saddle up in such a way that has the cinch working against the saddle finding it's sweet spot and a different rigging position would make that less likely to happen? Could this be part of the reason for some of the white spots on some horses? And does a cinch setting at an angle, though it may not pull the saddle out of the sweet spot, apply more pressure laterally and thus contribute to the white spot or at least a bit of discomfort for the horse kinda like me walking around with a belt that sat crooked around my waist? (I know... My belly won't allow this to happen but I'm speaking figuratively) Or wouldn't a person that rides more on the swells like a roper, riding on a full double cause more discomfort to the horse than if he was on a 3/4? because the full will already be putting more pressure on the withers and then the riders position compounds this. (My little pea brain get running on that stupid hamster wheel and it seems to never end). I was reading Martin Black's Western Horseman article and thinking about this post and wondering how any of the different rigging positions affect a persons ability to stay balanced i.e. what is the rigging position for a jockey that basically rides with all his weight leaned forward over the horses withers compared to what is most affective for say a cutter? compared to what is most affective for a roper or even a barrel racer. Are there rigging positions that work better for different disciplines? Correct me if I am wrong but David, don't you make a different seat for women? Would there be a different rigging position that would work better for women? (Must get off this hamster wheel!!!) Oh yeah, aren't the different rigging positions meant to move the saddle forward or backward on the horses back and if not then why the different positions? I know about the different roping style associated with center fire but then why full vs 7/8 vs 3/4 etc.?

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Bend down low...Let me tell you what I know!!

Bob Marley - Bend Down

[bruce johnson]

Alan,

If you would have asked me a year ago, I fell in with the rigging having a bigger influence on where a saddle sits than it does. There is at least one scenario where I see that it does. First off is the rider who has been taught from the get-go that you hang the cinch straight down behind the elbow. A lot of us that grew up with full double or close riggings learned that. I learned as a kid to lay my saddle further forward of where is should be, and slide it back until it fell into the right spot. This was to lay down the wool in the direction it was put on, smooth out any blanket wrinkles, lay down the horses hair, and Grandpa said so. When I got smarter and older, I was riding roping and cutting saddles with the full double Dee riggings and so the cinch behind the elbow rule kind of fit. Not because of rigging position, but that was the sweet spot for the tree. With the popularity of Wades and flat plates, we have people trained in the cinch position all of the sudden strapping on 5/8 riggings to the elbow and holding them there with breast collars.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Won't moving the rigging back cause some people to cinch up where they are use to and in affect move the whole thing too far forward onto the withers?

YES!!!!! That is what people DO do, especially if they are convinced that the cinch should hang vertically and their horse isn't built for that to happen. But, unless they cut the horse in two with the cinch and have nylon all around and minimal padding, as they ride and things stretch and work into place, that saddle will move itself into where it should go - IF it has a place that it does fit and IF they don't hold it too far forward with a breast collar - VERY common problem.

can't the same "some people" cinch the saddle up in such a way that has the cinch working against the saddle finding it's sweet spot and a different rigging position would make that less likely to happen?

The cinch working against the saddle finding its sweet spot would only happen if the saddle was placed too far forward, not too far back. Moving the rigging further forward would mean they wouldn't place it as far out of place forward, but it has the problems talked about in the previous post. So if they don't use a breast collar, their saddle will fit better after it has moved back if it has a 7/8th, 3/4 etc rigging than if it has a full rigging. And if they use a breast collar to hold it out of place, there is more pressure pulling right down over the shoulder blades on a full rigging than one that is further back. So either way, a rigging that is further back would benefit the horse. And having people learn about proper saddling and dispelling the myth of the vertical cinch right behind the elbow would help a whole lot more.

And does a cinch setting at an angle, though it may not pull the saddle out of the sweet spot, apply more pressure laterally and thus contribute to the white spot or at least a bit of discomfort for the horse kinda like me walking around with a belt that sat crooked around my waist?

Not quite sure what you mean by applying more pressure laterally. On the sides? But not sure why that would contribute to the white spots. Could you explain more, please?

Or wouldn't a person that rides more on the swells like a roper, riding on a full double cause more discomfort to the horse than if he was on a 3/4?because the full will already be putting more pressure on the withers and then the riders position compounds this.

BINGO!

if not then why the different positions?

We have been working through "They Saddled the West" by Lee Rice. He has a chapter called The Montana Three-Quarter Saddle where he talks about east, full double, meeting west, center fire, and people deciding to work a compromise. Interesting history, but we don't know more than that about the origins, and I'll leave the rest of the questions to those who know more about riggings than I do…

I learned as a kid to lay my saddle further forward of where is should be, and slide it back until it fell into the right spot.

That's the method we use.

we have people trained in the cinch position all of the sudden strapping on 5/8 riggings to the elbow and holding them there with breast collars.

EXACTLY. And this is what is hurting a lot of our rope horses today. Go to any roping and you see half? more? of the horses saddled this way. A quote from a recent Western Horseman on breast collars: "Some horses naturally wear a saddle farther back than others. If I roped on them without a breast collar I'd have to move my saddle up after every run." In other words, he saddles too far forward on his horse, and holds it there with a breast collar. A sure recipe for sore shoulders on your horse.

[YRsaddles]

Do any of ya'll use an equimeasure? it sorta takes all the quess work out of tree and rigging selection..Not to step on anyones toes...but with all the technology out there today..I don't understand why saddle makers as a whole don't use it...yes part of it is tradition and I do know that there are gimmicks out there..but some of it makes our job easier...and personally I'm ALL for something that makes speeds things up and puts more money in my pocket.

Dave

[David Genadek]

Do any of ya'll use an equimeasure? it sorta takes all the quess work out of tree and rigging selection..Not to step on anyones toes...but with all the technology out there today..I don't understand why saddle makers as a whole don't use it...yes part of it is tradition and I do know that there are gimmicks out there..but some of it makes our job easier...and personally I'm ALL for something that makes speeds things up and puts more money in my pocket.

Dave

I get a lot of them in but the guy focuses on the whithers so they really aren't long enough to tell you how much rock so you have to tell them to get the extension that they sell. I find I get just as good information by having them do a back map. It is a lot cheaper and gives them a training tool that they can use to see if thier training techniques are working. It also gives me information I can plug into a data base. Any method is only as good as your ability to analyze the horse manship and how it is affecting the conformation of the animal. In my opinion you do not want to start making a tree for every individual horse. Most horse's will fall into a back type once you have addressed all the horsemanship issues. If you don't there will be problems.

It is pretty hard to talk riggings when there is no consensus on where a saddle should fit and how it should fit. Although there is an abundance of information in regarding actual bio mechanics our craft tends to lean toward a regional consensus of confusions so with in a market if you adhere to that you will find success if it works or not. Saddle fit is a complex problem that involves the shape of the horse (which is dependant on the horsemanship) the shape of the human and the dynamics of all the movement. There is an endless array of interpretations of how all these things come together.

My advice to everyone trying to learn is to learn the anatomy, understand the biomechanics and then worry about the politics.

David Genadek

[Doug Mclean]

What is an equimeasure? There are some other reasons for having all of the different riggin positions. Next time you get to see some old time pictures pay attention to the conformation of the horses. In the Montana area a lot of the old time ranch horses were more of a Thoroughbred body type. Some of them weren't the greatest for conformation with the angle of the front shoulders being steeper than most horses today. My point is with the withers more over the front legs that sweet spot for the cinch and the tree probabably worked out better in the 3/4 position than it does today. The other thing you didn' t see many breastcollars in the early pictures not sure that was the reason. From my own personal experience I have felt like my breastcollar tended to pull my saddle to the front when I didn't have my cinch real tight. But by the same token it also kept me out of trouble when riding in some rough country.

Is this equimeasure something new?

[YRsaddles]

I use equimeasures and yes they are short and you gotta get the western extension..yet another way they get money of you..but it really does work...if put on correctly and allowed to set properly...you can see the scapula and EVERYTHING on a horses back that we need to know about...so fit shouldn't be a problem anymore...but I personally don't think enough saddle makers use them...TOO EASY

And yes I agree with the part a horses back will change and that a saddle that fits near perfect might not fit well later on as the horse ages or fills out as the training progresses...all I was saying was that there are A LOT of things out there that can make our job easier... I tend to use the equimeasure as a starting point and plan tree selection accordingly..allowing for possible changes in the horses back down the road.

Dave

Edited January 21, 2008 by YRsaddles

[YRsaddles]

What is an equimeasure? There are some other reasons for having all of the different riggin positions. Next time you get to see some old time pictures pay attention to the conformation of the horses. In the Montana area a lot of the old time ranch horses were more of a Thoroughbred body type. Some of them weren't the greatest for conformation with the angle of the front shoulders being steeper than most horses today. My point is with the withers more over the front legs that sweet spot for the cinch and the tree probabably worked out better in the 3/4 position than it does today. The other thing you didn' t see many breastcollars in the early pictures not sure that was the reason. From my own personal experience I have felt like my breastcollar tended to pull my saddle to the front when I didn't have my cinch real tight. But by the same token it also kept me out of trouble when riding in some rough country.

Is this equimeasure something new?

not really..been around for a while...just another way to fit a horse...and so easy to use