Non-Functioning Pistols from the manufactor's

[Reaper]

Also, if you are made of money, buying used guns and demilling them is pretty easy. Removal of the firing pin is a sure fire way, or you can just fill the barrels with epoxy puddy.

Just wondering why you would break a functioning firearm when making sure it is unloaded works just as well and you still get to shoot it?

[countyholster]

I contacted ATF in Portland about the legalities of getting non-functioning pieces from mfgrs. The mfgrs generally have to melt down or shred useless guns after logging them in. They would be liable in any number of ways should one get out and be retooled to work.

I asked a big dealer in town here about their pieces of junk and they destroy them or turn them over to the ATF for the agents to tend to. Too many things to go wrong and the old days of just using a gun from a dealer are long gone. Used to be a maker could just borrow a piece, use it for a mold and then simply take it back. Now plenty of hardship if the dealer gets called on the carpet.

Oh yea, one thing I'd like to pass along...

A fellow (rather light in the loafers) wanted a back pocket holster for an American Derringer .357 double barrel. He wanted it so it could be fired without removing it from the holster. I came up with a rather nice design, but felt wrong about the whole thing and decided not to sell it to the guy. He huffed off and I kept the holster on my wall of leather. I learned recently that kind of holster is called an AOW - or Any Other Weapon, and they are illegal. That is to say the holster and the gun together are illegal. The holster by itself is not, and the gun by itself is not...but together it can be jail time. The maker probably would not be liable - if he did not know what it would be used for. Then again, how does that work? The ATF agent I spoke with said it could potentially bring a world of hurt down if a hard nosed attorney wanted a piece of your hide. I'm just saying it. I have the ATF general guidelines manual - and you can go to their website and download it also.

I contacted ATF in Portland about the legalities of getting non-functioning pieces from mfgrs. The mfgrs generally have to melt down or shred useless guns after logging them in. They would be liable in any number of ways should one get out and be retooled to work.

I asked a big dealer in town here about their pieces of junk and they destroy them or turn them over to the ATF for the agents to tend to. Too many things to go wrong and the old days of just using a gun from a dealer are long gone. Used to be a maker could just borrow a piece, use it for a mold and then simply take it back. Now plenty of hardship if the dealer gets called on the carpet.

Oh yea, one thing I'd like to pass along...

A fellow (rather light in the loafers) wanted a back pocket holster for an American Derringer .357 double barrel. He wanted it so it could be fired without removing it from the holster. I came up with a rather nice design, but felt wrong about the whole thing and decided not to sell it to the guy. He huffed off and I kept the holster on my wall of leather. I learned recently that kind of holster is called an AOW - or Any Other Weapon, and they are illegal. That is to say the holster and the gun together are illegal. The holster by itself is not, and the gun by itself is not...but together it can be jail time. The maker probably would not be liable - if he did not know what it would be used for. Then again, how does that work? The ATF agent I spoke with said it could potentially bring a world of hurt down if a hard nosed attorney wanted a piece of your hide. I'm just saying it. I have the ATF general guidelines manual - and you can go to their website and download it also.

[Lobo]

This topic comes up with some regularity on this forum. Obtaining the forming pieces used for patterning and forming holsters can be one of the more frustrating aspects of hoster making.

Dummy guns are made by several companies. Generally, dummies will be made only for current production handguns that have achieved a significant market share. Most handgun models are never offered as dummies, and those that are offered will usually become available only after the model has been on the market for some time (frequently a year or more).

The alternative to using dummy guns is to use the actual firearm. This allows for two approaches: (1) holster maker purchases the firearm, and (2) customer makes the firearm available to the holster maker for use in patterning and forming the order.

For the holster maker to purchase actual firearms requires a significant investment, from several hundred dollars to over a thousand dollars for many pieces. This level of investment requires a substantial and continuing demand for holsters made for the piece to be purchased.

For the customer to make a firearm available to the holster maker both parties must comply with all applicable federal, state, and local laws pertaining to firearms transfers. Transactions within a single state might be simpler than interstate transfers, depending upon state and local laws. Interstate transfers must be made via holders of a valid Federal Firearms License, each transaction must be documented, and background checks completed. The costs involved in shipping, insuring, FFL transfer fees, background check fees, etc, can be substantial (frequently more than the price of a single holster). There are other factors to be considered such as on-site security (safe, alarm systems, etc) and the potential for claims of loss or damage while in transit and while in the holster maker's custody and control. Business insurance anyone? How much is your deductible (more than the value of the handgun to be claimed)?

A holster maker may obtain a Federal Firearms License, allowing the receipt and shipment of firearms. Application and license fees are substantial, and the FFL holder becomes subject to random and periodic inspections and audits by BATFE agents. Generally speaking, all firearms on the FFL holder's licensed premises become subject to record keeping and transfer requirements, even if personally owned by the license holder (especially when the licensed premises includes the FFL holder's home). These are not to be taken lightly. In today's climate holding a FFL is like having a big red circle around your name on lists in Washington DC.

The hobbyist holster maker is obviously more limited than those engaged in holster making as a business. The small volume maker is more limited than the larger production shop. There will always be customers who want the holster maker to just do this one time, let them ship a handgun direct, allow them to leave a handgun with the maker without documentation or background checks. The dangers should be obvious, and no holster order is worth the risk of several years' incarceration, or huge fines, or the felony conviction that might attach.

I use dummies made by Rings, Duncans, ASP, and others, and I still purchase dummies occasionally. I have had a few customers that, upon learning that I did not have an existing dummy and wasn't willing to purchase one for a single order, have purchased the dummies and sent them to me. I have also had firearms manufacturers' executives arrange for dummies to be produced for their new models so that I could use them to make holsters for them. When these things have happened I always make a generous allowance on the holster order.

Over the past several years I have leaned more toward purchasing the actual handguns. Much of my production is for vintage handguns, many long out of production, with millions still in the hands of people who wish to use them, but little holster selection available from the big name manufacturers. I have found that I can purchase used handguns at fairly reasonable prices, then use them for holster making again and again for years while they easily retain their value (more frequently appreciating in value as time passes). I also purchase new models when demand warrants, knowing that it might easily be a year or more before dummies might become available, and by having the new handgun in stock I can recover the total cost in profits before the dummies come out. On several occasions I have purchased new handguns, used them for a year or two, then sold them when demand fell off (always for more than I paid for them, so far). I have also purchased new handguns, used them a few times, then watched as they sat in the safe tying up my capital for months on end until I decided to sell them off.

As noted by others Ruger, KelTec, and a few others offer dummies for holster makers, but availability always seems to be an issue. There are also a couple of manufacturers that will sell to bona fide holster makers (FEIN, tax license, website, banking references, etc) at wholesale or distributor pricing (actual transfers still require the services of a local FFL dealer, transfer fees, background check, etc), and I know of one manufacturer that will actually loan out pistols to holster makers (FFL transfer, shipping costs, and deposit equal to price required, of course).

I will summarize my thoughts on this topic. The cost of obtaining the forming piece (dummy gun or actual firearm) is a tax-deductible business expense; as long as I can show that the piece was obtained and used for completing an order that generated revenue for my business I am allowed to expense the cost (multi-year depreciation schedules usually apply to durable tools and equipment). When such items are subsequently sold the revenue becomes a recapture of the investment and must be declared as income (or recovered depreciation, depending on how the item was expensed). I will either show a net profit, or incur a net loss, on each such investment depending upon how many orders are produced and paid for during my ownership of the piece. There are also provisions for "like-kind exchanges", so I may even find that a piece I no longer want can be traded for another piece that I need, thus establishing a new asset for expensing or depreciating.

For these reasons I usually find it best for me to simply acquire the actual firearms needed. Many of us appreciate being able to build a firearms collection while taking a tax deductible business expense, then watching the values grow over the years!

Sometimes we must look beyond the apparent obstacles to appreciate the potential opportunies.