photos of your horse's back for saddle fitting

[Traveller]

I'm heading up to the Kamloops Cowboy Festival in mid-March in the hopes that I'll find (or find someone with) a good quality, used custom saddle that will fit my horse and my budget. But since I can't haul the horse up there with me, I'll have to take photos and measurements instead (plus Darc Kabatoff, who has offered to come by and check out my horse for me before then -- thanks in advance, Darc!).

Which photo angles should I bring with me, and how and where should the measurements be made? I understand you can buy a bendy ruler from stores like Staples to get a good whither tracing, which I presume would be easier than operating an old wire coat hanger. But precisely where should that measurement be made?

I've attached a side photo of my horse for starters.

Thanks, all!

Joanne

[Tosch]

Joanne,

Just a thought: IF you had the Dennis Lane card system at you hands you could measure your horse with the cards. Then you could make complementary cards of the horse's back shape and check the fit of those at the correct spot of the saddle's underside. I bet Darcy and/or one of the other forum members attending would be so kind and point out to you where at the saddle's underside/ the saddle tree you would have to measure the fit with your cards "representing" your horse's back.

I keep my fingers crossed for you to find a saddle and of course to have fun!! ( And say hello from me to Darcy !!! and to the forum members you are going to see there!!)

Tosch

Edited March 2, 2009 by Tosch

[Denise]

Joanne,

Go to www.dennislane.com.au and read the instructions for using the card system - where the cards should be placed. Take your measurements there. Dennis's system was derived from templates taken at these sites because that is a very commonly recommended place to take the templates. Also , if you have drawings from those places, anyone familiar with the DL system can more easily interpret what you have drawn.

Another drawing a lot of people ask for is the top line. Some want a level on that (ie. draw on the topline drawing where a true horizontal line is.) And you can take extra templates between the ones in the above website if you want. It is not uncommon for measurements to be taken every 4 inches.

Picture wise:

1.) A side view gives the best information about wither height, the relative positions of the withers and the shoulder, and whether the horse is built downhill or more level.

2.) A picture angled from the front gives the best view of the rock in the back.

3.) A picture angled from the back shows the prominence of the shoulders.

4.) A picture taken directly from the back an a bit above the horse gives an idea of the width of the back and how flat or angled it is.

We find that if you put masking tape on the horse where you take you back drawings and take pictures of the horse with that on as well, it helps in a couple of ways. It lets us see exactly where you have taken your drawings from. (We have had drawings sent to us that were taken over the shoulder blade itself rather than behind it. Makes a difference!!) Also, having the tape on there helps me anyway see the curves better than just the bare horse. Shadows and light patterns along with hair coat colors can make optical illusions. Having a white strip along the horse reduces those.

Just some ideas. As always, everyone likes things a bit different, but if you do all this, you should hit most of what people would want to see!

[Tosch]

Joanne,

since Dennis' site is under construction Rod and Denise have also explained how to use the cards: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=10369 .

Tosch

[mulefool]

I just got my Dennis Lane cards a few days ago. So far I have only done one horse and one mule. In the past I have always done a tracing of the topline to get a sense of the rock, but what I like about the Dennis Lane cards is that the card for rock actually goes along the part of the back where the tree bar actually rests. It seems so obvious now. Anyway, if you made a profile for rock along that line you could fit that up under the saddle to see how the rock matches up. You would just have to make sure that you marked where the front of the bar would be. It took 10 days for the cards to get from Australia to Washington state. You might be able to get them in time for the Festival. Although if you are only doing one horse you may not want to put out that much. Chris

[Bob]

I like the card system Dennis Lane developed. It's simple to understand, effective and accurate. I've used several times and haven't seen anything better.

[kfiretwo]

I'm heading up to the Kamloops Cowboy Festival in mid-March in the hopes that I'll find (or find someone with) a good quality, used custom saddle that will fit my horse and my budget. But since I can't haul the horse up there with me, I'll have to take photos and measurements instead (plus Darc Kabatoff, who has offered to come by and check out my horse for me before then -- thanks in advance, Darc!).

Which photo angles should I bring with me, and how and where should the measurements be made? I understand you can buy a bendy ruler from stores like Staples to get a good whither tracing, which I presume would be easier than operating an old wire coat hanger. But precisely where should that measurement be made?

I've attached a side photo of my horse for starters.

Thanks, all!

Joanne

if all else fails go to NorthernTool an pick up a few pieces of rubber coated flex straps so u can mold the horses back than transfer that shape to a piece of poster board it will give a better describstion of the back alone with the pics u take, good luck n have fun

[Traveller]

I'd love to try out Dennis Lane's system but I've only got the one horse and don't plan to make saddles myself, so the best I can hope for is to follow the instructions you guys gave me and cross my fingers that the measurements I get lead me to a saddle that works. I'm getting tired of changing saddles up all the time.

Thanks, everybody. As always, your advice is very much appreciated!

Joanne

[DennisLane]

Hi all.

First of all I would like to thank all those that have supported the cards system. It is so pleasing that fellow saddle & tree makers find it as usefully as I have. Originally when I first thought of sharing this system with a few friends, I had no idea that it would take the direction that it has. It has grown and developed remarkably from its initial concept. Now that more and more people are using it and more data is gathered, the system will eventually cover a larger percentage of the range of horses and mules with an increase in accuracy.

The way I use it is to advise my customers to measure all of their horses, or a good cross section if they have more than a dozen. If they only have one, measure their friend’s horses that they like the look of. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and in my experience people will buy horses that they like the look of. I like to have at least three profiles from each customer. This information informs me of what type of horses the customer has and the range from the narrowest to the widest. This is what we are now calling the macro fit. This is the information that the saddle/tree maker needs so that they can decide on a tree that in their opinion is best suited to the customers horses. This gives the saddle some scope. I don’t recommend making a tree to fit one horse, to me that is impractical. The horses back is dynamic, so over time what will fit as a four year old may not fit as a ten year old.

This leads us to the next stage the cards can be used for. To check and adjust the micro fit of the tree. The setting of the tree relative to the cards must be known. I stamp the settings of the tree on the skirts just behind the stirrup leather slot. They are easy to find and are there for all time. Next, card the horse. You simply superimpose the horse’s settings on top of the original tree settings. This tells you the difference between the tree in the saddle and the shape of the horse that you intend to ride. If the tree is too narrow there is nothing that can be done. If the tree is to wide the difference is how much padding and where you need to place it. This procedure is commonly called shimming (matching the shape of the horse to the setting of the tree) and has been around for a very long time, nothing new. What the cards do is take the guess work out of how much and where to place the shim. I don’t recommend this procedure once the difference is greater than three settings. The cards also have their own language. Once people become a custom to the language. The three dimensional shape of a horses back can be discussed simply and easily by phone, fax, email or by mail.

What I advise my customers to do is to card their horses three or four times during the time they are being ridden or in work/training, record the readings and date them. This will allow them to visually observe the changes the horses back goes through from month to month, year to year. As I have said, the cards are a simple tool. Its initial use is by the saddle/tree makers for the macro fit, It than can be used by the horse owner to control the micro fit.

This will not solve all saddle fit problems. There a number of variables that also plays their part. What this addresses is how the tree relates to the horses back. The cards are a simple tool to aid us in making those decisions. I am not in favour of the reverse or the male side of the cards in the use of checking the fit of a saddle. There are many pit falls in this method and I think the average person needs to be careful. It takes a very experienced person to do this with any real degree of accuracy.

Joanne, your situation is just like many others. You don’t have to be a saddle/ tree maker to gain some long term benefit out of the cards. Once the macro fit of the tree is known, the person that will get the most out of the cards is the person that is saddling the horse on a daily basis. They are the ones that have to adjust to suit the situation, day to day, week to week, year to year. They are the ones that need to know ahead of time whether a saddle is going to work or not. Not just see results of a poorly fitting saddle.

Hope this is of some help to you Joanne and to any one else in a similar position.

Regards.

Dennis

[Traveller]

Thanks for the explanation, Dennis. Much appreciated!

Joanne

[StolpSaddles]

Joanne

Where abouts are you located. I have a DL system and live in Langley. Might be able to help if it is not to late.

I was invited to place a saddle or 2 in the amature saddle compatition. I have sent up 2 saddles one new already sold and one used that is for sale with a wide gullet.

Edited March 10, 2009 by StolpSaddles

[Traveller]

That would be great, Ron! I have a pretty tight window, though, if we're to get it done before the Kamloops Cowboy Festival. I'll PM you my contact info.

Thanks!

Joanne

[Gabrielle]

Hi....I'm new here and just "bumping" this topic....to add....

I am trying to get ahold of Dennis Lane to order his card system, his email on his site is "FULL" or something. {Does anyone know how to phone Australia from the states?}

I would love to order his card system as my little Paso Fino mare, is incredibly who is very difficult to fit a saddle.

All my friends have tried their saddles on her....BUT...NOTHING fits.

I'm SO CONFUSED as to saddle trees and what I am looking for.

So here's an age old question: How exactly is the tree suppose to fit? I mean.....the horses' back moved up and down and twists...just like our spines...

My Kieffer dressage saddle, seemed to fit her fine, now we are riding in some pretty steep ravines UP and DOWN...I think the friction has moved the

saddle all over the place. Now she has white hairs.....I FEEL LIKE A TERRIBLE HORSE OWNER.

Please help.

I'm hoping to purchase an authentic Australian saddle......

All advice is greatly appreciated and accepted.

[bruce johnson]

Gabrielle,

I think Dennis might be in the US right now traveling. I heard from one of his traveling buddies and they might be stopping by here in a couple weeks. They were spending some time in Texas and going to OKC for the TCAA deal and I'd suspect Wichita Falls too.

[Denise]

Gabrielle,

If you look under the Choosing the Right Saddle for the Horse section plus the one in the Saddery section that includes saddle trees, you will find lots of discussions of fit, especially in the 2007 and early 2008 period. How is a saddle supposed to fit? There are probably as many answers to that question as there are people to answer it, but there are some basics that almost everyone agrees on. Here are some threads to get you started. (I'll warn you that sometimes the discussion gets a little heated in places. Just goes to show you how important this topic is to the people who make their living building trees and saddles.)

http://leatherworker...showtopic=18445

http://leatherworker...?showtopic=2760

http://leatherworker...&st=0#entry4976

Some are related to specific horses, but if you read them you will see the common areas that need to be considered when fitting a saddle.

PS. The construction and trees in English and traditional Aussie saddles are completely different than Western trees, which is what is under discussion in these topics. However, the same basic principles apply, so they should still be of some help to you.

[Denise]

Gabrielle, I e-mailed Dennis and his co-worker on the system, David A Morris directly this afternoon and have received a reply that whatever the problem was, it has apparently been cleared now. So try again and you should be able to get through.

[barra]

OK loading those pics didn't work. I'll try again in the morning.

Barra

Edited September 30, 2009 by barra