Shot whips, bags, and details of.....

[DougCim]

Hello all.

I've taken an interest in whip making recently, firstly in shorter shot-loaded types. I have some equipment on order, so I cannot begin yet. I have bought two books, "How to make whips" by R Edwards and "Whips and whipmaking" by D Morgan. That has explained quite a bit, but led to more questions.

In his description of how shot whips are made, Edwards says that the bag is sewn along one edge, filled and then sewn shut. The whip is then plaited over this. My problem is I don't see how this can avoid resulting in one of two undesirable situations.

If the shot bag is packed rather tightly with shot, then there will be an excessive amount of stress on the seam of the shot bag. The plaits will not be braided around the shot bag as tightly as the shot bag is already stretched by the shot inside. And the first couple times you swing the whip, the shot is going to sink into the tail end even more, distorting the whip's taper and stressing the seam of the shot bag even further.

So what if you packed the shot bag a bit looser? This would allow the shot bag to stretch along with the plaits, as the whip is broken in....

Well then the problem (I'd think) would be that you could not get a reliable taper to the whip, at least in the loaded portion. As you're braiding the butt end, some of the shot in the butt-end of the loosely-packed bag will get pushed into the tail end--so the end result is that the butt end would be thinner than you wanted, and the tail end will be fatter.

.....

What I'm wondering is if it's worthwhile to construct the whip so that the butt end is openable--all the plaiting, and the shot bag as well. The shot bag is made slightly oversized (too fat) to fit inside the plaits, and the plaits are cut for the profile desired and then woven around the empty shot bag. After the whip is fully plaited, then the shot is filled from the butt end, where it can pack on its own into the whip as the whip is swung.

The butt end of the shot bag only needs to be bound shut with some lace, as there's no real stress on it. This would also provide a way to "adjust" the tightness of the shot packing inside.

---

There's not a whole lot of info on shot loading, in either books or online really. Are all shot-loaded whips made basically the same way?

[end]

[Jim314]

Hello Doug,

Some of your assumptions are correct, others not so. There are two ways to construct a whip bag that I'm aware of. One is like Edwards describes, you sew the two seams together and then fill the bag with shot. The other is to use duct tape. You lay the triangle of leather on the tape and fold the tape over to form a tube of the leather.

I'm sure either method will work, but I've only used the duct tape method.

You want to make sure the shot is packed tightly, but not so tightly that it distorts any part of the bag. You want the butt end closed and sealed before plaiting. When packed the bag should feel very firm and retain an even taper to the end. Once you start plaiting, the shot is going to want to escape because of the compression of the plaits. If there is no where for it to escape, it is just going to get more dense, which is what you want.

Once it is plaited over, it should feel hard and very dense and retain the taper of the bag.

It would never work to try and plait over an empty bag and then fill it.

[jerryrwm]

Hello all.

I've taken an interest in whip making recently, firstly in shorter shot-loaded types. I have some equipment on order, so I cannot begin yet. I have bought two books, "How to make whips" by R Edwards and "Whips and whipmaking" by D Morgan. That has explained quite a bit, but led to more questions.

So what if you packed the shot bag a bit looser? This would allow the shot bag to stretch along with the plaits, as the whip is broken in....

Well then the problem (I'd think) would be that you could not get a reliable taper to the whip, at least in the loaded portion. As you're braiding the butt end, some of the shot in the butt-end of the loosely-packed bag will get pushed into the tail end--so the end result is that the butt end would be thinner than you wanted, and the tail end will be fatter.

--

There's not a whole lot of info on shot loading, in either books or online really. Are all shot-loaded whips made basically the same way?

[end]

You might want to check out EM Brand whips. Bernie has a ton of information on his web page.

Edwards method makes a good shot loaded whip. And the duct tape method does also. The true secret is to get a good even taper and use the smallest shot you can find. Many use #12. I have had extremely good luck with #9. You will need to pack it and pack it firmly. It will still have some flex to it before plaiting the belly and overlay, but if you learn to plait tight, you will retain the taper, and your shot will not move. Also, once you have the shot bag made, and sealed the end, roll it on the bench. As my whipmaking friend from Australia once told me, "you hafta rawl the pisss outta it, mate!" If you don't plait tight, you are not going to be happy at all with the results. In other words, you cannot plait around a hollow flexible tube and hope to get it all even and smooth.

You might want to look for a book by Dennis Bush on whipmaking also.

Just a little input from a transplanted whipmaker. (From Texas to Wisconsin.)

Edited April 17, 2009 by jerryrwm

[DougCim]

Edwards method makes a good shot loaded whip. And the duct tape method does also. The true secret is to get a good even taper and use the smallest shot you can find. Many use #12. I have had extremely good luck with #9.

The duct tape method was what the guy at the Tandy leather store mentioned he used as well.

He said he used neatsfoot oil and soap as plaiting soap though, and none of the mentions of plaiting soap in the two books I have involve neatsfoot oil, that is only used in dressings. (I just bought a jar of dressing for now, Fiebing's Aussie) I've got some Ivory soap bars and have some store-bought lard around; is adding the kerosene necessary? It's the one ingredient I don't have on hand... I'll have to find somewhere around that pumps kerosene and buy a few ounces.

As to the shot: I had the local gun shop order me a bag of either #9 or #12, the guy said he'd ask for the smallest size they carry, which is usually #12. I noticed on one of these (few) whipmaking forums that a fellow in the UK mentions using #15 shot, but I asked on a US gun board and was told that #12 was the smallest stuff used for firearms; it's the size of shot used in 22LR shotshells, for example. Someone else said that US and UK shot sizes are not the same measures, but I couldn't find anything online that compared the two or said that they were the same.

...You will need to pack it and pack it firmly. ... In other words, you cannot plait around a hollow flexible tube and hope to get it all even and smooth. ...

This is the part I noticed: you don't sew the shot bag by "piling a bunch of loose shot on a piece of fabric, and then trying to sew up a bag around it". You make the shot bag empty, and then after it is made, you can then pack it with shot much better. So if this works best for the shot bag, I am wondering why not use the same technique for the whole whip? After all, you don't really care if the shot bag itself is really packed entirely full, so long as the shot is carried evenly inside and the proper volume for the plaiting is filled out. (-and of course, the whip has to be constructed so that you can add the shot after the plaiting is done, which the usual shotwhip method doesn't allow-)

I will likely try it, as if it is a terrible failure there won't really be any "wasted" parts--it can be un-braided and a smaller-diameter shot bag would just need to made for the existing plaits, and the over-thick shot bag could be used packed full and used with other wider plaits cut for it.

~

Edited April 17, 2009 by DougCim

[jerryrwm]

The duct tape method was what the guy at the Tandy leather store mentioned he used as well.

He said he used neatsfoot oil and soap as plaiting soap though, and none of the mentions of plaiting soap in the two books I have involve neatsfoot oil, that is only used in dressings. (I just bought a jar of dressing for now, Fiebing's Aussie) I've got some Ivory soap bars and have some store-bought lard around; is adding the kerosene necessary? It's the one ingredient I don't have on hand... I'll have to find somewhere around that pumps kerosene and buy a few ounces.

As to the shot: I had the local gun shop order me a bag of either #9 or #12, the guy said he'd ask for the smallest size they carry, which is usually #12. I noticed on one of these (few) whipmaking forums that a fellow in the UK mentions using #15 shot, but I asked on a US gun board and was told that #12 was the smallest stuff used for firearms; it's the size of shot used in 22LR shotshells, for example. Someone else said that US and UK shot sizes are not the same measures, but I couldn't find anything online that compared the two or said that they were the same.

This is the part I noticed: you don't sew the shot bag by "piling a bunch of loose shot on a piece of fabric, and then trying to sew up a bag around it". You make the shot bag empty, and then after it is made, you can then pack it with shot much better. So if this works best for the shot bag, I am wondering why not use the same technique for the whole whip? After all, you don't really care if the shot bag itself is really packed entirely full, so long as the shot is carried evenly inside and the proper volume for the plaiting is filled out. (-and of course, the whip has to be constructed so that you can add the shot after the plaiting is done, which the usual shotwhip method doesn't allow-)

I will likely try it, as if it is a terrible failure there won't really be any "wasted" parts--it can be un-braided and a smaller-diameter shot bag would just need to made for the existing plaits, and the over-thick shot bag could be used packed full and used with other wider plaits cut for it.

~

First off - No neatsfoot oil, No mink oil, No petroleum based oils. They cause the fibers to swell and eventually breakdown quicker.

David Morgan's recipe of lard, ivory soap and water works well. Peter Jack adds beeswax to the mixture. You can add a little eucalyptus oil if you want to deter critters. (I never have had anything chew on any of my whips, even those that have not been used due to the age of the whips - I have one that is approx 50 yrs old and another that is right around 30 yrs old.). Shave the soap (large bar of Ivory) into boiling water stirring to help dissolve it. Shave up a piece of beeswax - about the size of a golf ball and stir it into the soap water. Add a pound of lard and melt it into the solution. After it is all dissolved and melted together remove from heat and cool slightly. Then using an electric mixer, whip the mixture until it has the consistancy of chip dip. Store it in a plastic coffee can or other container that you can close up so it doesn't dry out.

The shot bag is not really that long for a 3' signal whip or snake whip. It is usually around 12"-16" long. Depending on the whip length I use a shot bag that is not much bigger than 7-9mm in diameter at the top end, and tapers to about 3-4mm at the end where I attach the core which tapers to a fine point. So the overall core and bag of my 3' snakewhip is about 24" long.

To pack the shot bag, I use a long slender knitting needle. Add a bit of shot, poke and pack, smack it on the table (careful doing this! If your bag isn't well constructed you'll have shot all over the place. Took me several hours to find most of it in the carpet and everywhere else!) Keep adding the shot in layers, packing and poking as you go. You'll have a nice firm bag that won't shift and distort if you do it this way. If you will make the shot bag an inch or so longer than your final length. This will leave you room to seal the butt end and still have it packed tight. Now you need to roll it beneath a board to smooth and round it. And you will find that you are not using that much shot in each whip - a couple ounces at most. Unless you are making a whip that is for use as a long "blackjack sap".

Hope this helps,

Jerry

[DougCim]

A couple other questions have come up.

Question #1: In the Ron Edwards book, he shows a diagram of a cowhide side with various areas marked off as to their suitability for plaiting. He does not explain which end is the head end. I would guess, pointing towards the right side?

Question #2: I bought a 2-3oz (about 2mm thick) side of natural color cowhide, and it has a very obvious (and considerably large) "neck" area on one end. What is the leather in the neck area good for? I do not recall either of the two books I have mentioning it.

I cut a small piece out of one of the "armpits" of the side to make something, and could feel how much more stretchy it was compared to the main areas of the leather. I pulled around a bit on the neck leather, and it does not seem overly stretchy toward the center area. Aside from any scars and tick marks, is the central leather from the neck good enough for plaiting or not?...

-fini-

Edited April 18, 2009 by DougCim

[HorsehairBraider]

I don't make whips... but I think on your diagram, the head part of the hide is pointing to the right, as you surmise. There isn't much to the tail, that's the way I figure it out on a complete hide.

As to what the neck it good for, it just depends. On your first diagram it point it out as a little thick, sometimes, for cutting strings. But if you can skive your strings maybe that won't matter so much. I think you can use all of it for something.

[Essentia]

As to the shot: I had the local gun shop order me a bag of either #9 or #12, the guy said he'd ask for the smallest size they carry, which is usually #12. I noticed on one of these (few) whipmaking forums that a fellow in the UK mentions using #15 shot, but I asked on a US gun board and was told that #12 was the smallest stuff used for firearms; it's the size of shot used in 22LR shotshells, for example. Someone else said that US and UK shot sizes are not the same measures, but I couldn't find anything online that compared the two or said that they were the same.

I'd be the fella in the UK lucky enough to be able to get #15 shot, I have it made up for me as it's not commonly held by gunsmiths as standard stock.....

You are right in that the UK numbers differ slightly from the USA numbers regarding shot but even so the #15 I get is around half the size of the (USA) #12 I did have a comparison photo somewhere of some #12 and #15 next to each other on my marble rolling slab I'll see if I can dig it out for you and post it here...

The basic rule of thumb is the smaller the shot you can get the better, like Jerry I pack mine down in bits but rather than a knitting needle I use the end of a fishing rod....

Plaiting soap....we all have our own reciepe, I've posted mine below between that and the others here I'm sure you can come up with your own...

My reciepe is........

28oz of sheep/beef dripping (a lot of American guys use Crisco just fine)

8oz of Ivory Soap

4oz of beeswax (the yellow one NOT the brown)

20oz of water.......

It's really simple to make........

1/ grate the bees wax and the soap

2/ bring the water to the boil then turn it down to simmer..

3/ add bees wax and soap to simmering water stir till it's disolved

4/ add in the sheep/beef dripping and stir in till you have a thick smooth paste consistency

5/ Continue stirring every 5 to 10 minutes whilst it cools down...

Pop it in the fridge over night....

Good luck

Tony

[DougCim]

The shot ended up being #9, still looks workable.

I need a wooden broomstick to try the "post-fill" shotbag method, and no place around had one (the only replacement broom handles they had were plastic and metal). I've got a couple wooden-handled brooms, but I don't feel like cutting one of them up.

I do have the shotbag mostly done so far; end still needs a bit of tapering. This is for a pocket/snake whip that was planned about 4" long (thong) but may end up 4.5 feet plus a lash six inches or so. The use is to carry while bicycling to have something to swing at nasty dogs, so I wanted it heavier rather than light. It may not crack, but it won't need to.

As it is I am planning a 4-strand plait and then an 8-strand done directly over that.

I noticed that the books say that more strands=better flexibility, but less strands=faster plaiting work. Would it be worthwhile to cut each of the 4-strands into two strands, but braid them as four groups of two strands?

Sewing this stuff is a pain (especially since nobody makes thimbles big enough for a larger man to comfortably use!!! Does anyplace make BIG thimbles? I have a Prym #10 17mm now, it was the largest I could find online or in local stores.... a 19mm would be about right). I put a bunch of dressing on both sides of the leather and heated it a bit with a hair dryer to help it soak in, but it didn't make a lot of difference. Does water help?

~

[jerryrwm]

The shot ended up being #9, still looks workable.

I need a wooden broomstick to try the "post-fill" shotbag method, and no place around had one (the only replacement broom handles they had were plastic and metal). I've got a couple wooden-handled brooms, but I don't feel like cutting one of them up.

I do have the shotbag mostly done so far; end still needs a bit of tapering. This is for a pocket/snake whip that was planned about 4" long (thong) but may end up 4.5 feet plus a lash six inches or so. The use is to carry while bicycling to have something to swing at nasty dogs, so I wanted it heavier rather than light. It may not crack, but it won't need to.

As it is I am planning a 4-strand plait and then an 8-strand done directly over that.

I noticed that the books say that more strands=better flexibility, but less strands=faster plaiting work. Would it be worthwhile to cut each of the 4-strands into two strands, but braid them as four groups of two strands?

Sewing this stuff is a pain (especially since nobody makes thimbles big enough for a larger man to comfortably use!!! Does anyplace make BIG thimbles? I have a Prym #10 17mm now, it was the largest I could find online or in local stores.... a 19mm would be about right). I put a bunch of dressing on both sides of the leather and heated it a bit with a hair dryer to help it soak in, but it didn't make a lot of difference. Does water help?

~

You could also use a wooden dowel instead of a broomstick.

It sounds like you are making more of a percussion type defense tool rather than a whip. Just remember that the weight of that shot adds up quickly when put into a whip. My first one was called "Big Ugly" because it was big and man was it ever ugly. But it taught me a lot about whipmaking. I think I had enough shot in it to make four or five snakewhips.

The dressing and braiding soap will soak in on their own. It will get as supple as it's supposed to get. Just let it do it's work. You can't rush this stuff.

As for the plaiting, my opinion - for what it's worth - is to stay away from the two strand braiding util you get comfortable with doing 4 and 8 plait. It gets a little unruly on the back side when trying to make sure you have the right two strands and that they aren't crossed or one of them is twisted. The 8 plait will do you well and should take that much longer than 4 plait - at least starting out.

Just try it and see how things go. You'll be the final decision maker as to which style you like.

Jerry