Wade Tree

[Trapper]

Hello

Help me please ..

Why is the Wade Tree for Buckaroo Stättel used?

I will soon me a work saddle purchase, but still not understand why so many of these trees will be processed.

Thanks

Trapper

[AndyKnight]

I had to find out what "Stattel" is. ( saddle) Now your question makes sense.

True wade trees are designed especially for work saddles where they will be used for roping. This is why they are quite popular with the working cowboys.

The horn is usually shaped out of the same piece as the fork. The fork is designed and shaped to put the horn as close to the horses wither as possible. The amount of wood under the horn on a tree built this way may be as little as 3 centimeters. This diminishes the leverage on the tree and therefore the horse considerably (when roping.)

In todays saddle market there are hundreds of " wade" saddles that don't have the true characteristic of a proper wade.

A lot of tree factorys still haven't figured this out.

If you order a wade from a reputable saddle maker that uses true handmade trees you should have a true wade.

Edited March 25, 2008 by AndyKnight

[AndyKnight]

here is a sample of a saddle thet is a wade in name only (poorly designed wade) and what I would consider a true wade. Note the height of the fork of each of these saddles . Both of These saddles could easily have the same amount of wither clearance.

Please note that These pictures I just found randomly on the net.

Edited March 25, 2008 by AndyKnight

[Alan Bell]

Thanks, Andy as I have had quite a hard time getting across to folks the difference between what some tout to be a Wade and what actually is a Wade. Being a Texan does not increase my credibility when it comes to talking about Buckaroo gear either! I may have to quote you in order to get others to believe me!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

So much been said and so little, so little's been done!

Bob Marley - Thanks and Praises

[rwc]

Here is a Wade tree that I ordered from Hadlock and Fox

[AndyKnight]

Rwc, That Tree i would consider a wade by name only... JMHO

"A lot of tree factorys still haven't figured this out. "

[rwc]

I, personally, would love to see a picture of a true wade tree. Can you post one?

[Trapper]

Opps and sorry.

Yes, "saddle" is the name.

The saddle should be particularly well on the horse.

At the moment I am looking for further reasons for the saddle.

Sorry for my bad English.

Trapper

Edited March 25, 2008 by Trapper

[jonwatsabaugh]

rwc,

Get on Kent Frecker's web site, click on saddle trees and you will see some great examples of Kent's and Lennis Arave's Wade trees. Also Rod Nikkel has very fine examples on his site also.

Jon

Edited March 25, 2008 by jonwatsabaugh

[Elton Joorisity]

Kieth Valley has good tree examples on his site as well. Both Nikkel and Rick Reed trees. I will try to post a pic of another top quality tree as well.

[bruce johnson]

And then to further confuse the issue, we have '58 Wades, Homestead Wades, Cliff Wades, .....

[rwc]

I love the style of the saddle, authentic or not...I read where it originated from one of the Dorrance brothers. Wonder what his was...

[greg gomersall]

I love the style of the saddle, authentic or not...I read where it originated from one of the Dorrance brothers. Wonder what his was...

Dorrance's wade was just like what Andy is trying to get accross. Walt Youngman was the tree maker at Hamley's who helped Dorrance develop the tree. From there some people have stayed true to design while others has "bastardized" it. Greg

[barra]

OK gents. when looking at a wade tree, what constitutes true to design?

[Alan Bell]

RWC Tom Dorrance took Cliff Wade to Hamleys to get himself a copy of Cliff's unmarked saddle. Tom and Cliff made a few adjustments and Tom eventually left his saddle to Bryan Neuberts two sons. They have it. Cliff had the '58 Wade made for him by Ray Holes Saddlery in 1958 (hence the name) I don't think Cliff Wade had anything to do with the tree design called "the Cliff Wade" I think it was an attempt to lend some authenticity to trees that were made by some of the factory makers. The Homestead is another slick fork design by Ray Holes I think some are taking that design and adding a wood post horn and calling it a "Homestead Wade".

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

When it's wet it's slippery...

Bob Marley - Caution Edited March 26, 2008 by Alan Bell

[bruce johnson]

Interesting history here guys, thanks. Looking up some stuff tonight. I have a brochure from Sonny Felkins, and he lists a '58 Wade, Regular Wade, Homestead Wade, and Hamley Wade. The major differences seem to be amount of shoulder on the swells and how far down the bars the fork extends. Looking at the 50th anniversary catalog from Holes, they call it a '56 Wade, and say that is when Cliff Wade had them do it.

I had heard that the original tree that Tom had Hamleys base the design on originally was Cliff Wade's father's saddle. Anybody else heard of a time frame on that original saddle of Cliff Wade's or what year Tom had it done at Hamleys?

[greg gomersall]

Interesting history here guys, thanks. Looking up some stuff tonight. I have a brochure from Sonny Felkins, and he lists a '58 Wade, Regular Wade, Homestead Wade, and Hamley Wade. The major differences seem to be amount of shoulder on the swells and how far down the bars the fork extends. Looking at the 50th anniversary catalog from Holes, they call it a '56 Wade, and say that is when Cliff Wade had them do it.

I had heard that the original tree that Tom had Hamleys base the design on originally was Cliff Wade's father's saddle. Anybody else heard of a time frame on that original saddle of Cliff Wade's or what year Tom had it done at Hamleys?

If memory serves me correct Tom and Walt did the first one in 1939 and then made a few changes in 1940. greg

[oldtimer]

Question: Is the shape of the bars ( rock , twist and width) on a "true" Wade tree different from production "North West" bars or "Arizona" bars ?

[Alan Bell]

I stand corrected on the '58 vs the '56 Wade and Ray Holes. I'm away from home!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[bruce johnson]

Question: Is the shape of the bars ( rock , twist and width) on a "true" Wade tree different from production "North West" bars or "Arizona" bars ?

Pretty hard to compare much between different tree makers. One brochure I have who lists both of these bars in his lineup said that his NW bars don't have as much rocker and twist as his Wade bars. He offers either of these bars in "regular style" with two stirrup leather cuts, or in Arizona style with the one cut. I don't think I keyed in on that before.

Alan,

Dug a little deeper. I was like you, remembering it as a '58 done in 1958 acording to lore. Looks like Superior, Sonny Felkins, and Hadlock&Fox all call it a '58 Wade. Holes are calling it a '56. Unless someone modified the "56 again in 1958 and that is what all these guys are copying, I would be more inclined to believe the Holes family that it was done in 1956 now. To add more to the mix, we have a Broadus Wade from H&F, and a snub post Wade from Bowden to go along with their Cliff Wades. Greg pretty well summarized it - "bastardized". Maybe we could have a test on IDing and naming all the Wade styles. After this, we can figure out all the "Bowmans".

[Trapper]

Hello

Thank's Jon, Rod Nikkel is just discussed in our forum ( Vaquero-horsemanship ).

On this Web Site are good informations.

The Site from Mr. Frecker's I have not viewed, but i do it.

Very much Input )

This tree has a lot of history

But, what are his advantages over other trees?

I have read, he should be especially good for long rides and for Roping.

Roping ... OK. But why for long rides?

Thanks for your Help.

Trapper

[jonwatsabaugh]

There are a lot of mysteries concerning tree shapes, styles, etc. The reason being, most people never get to see a tree sans saddle leather, let alone inspecting one in the wood. Just having the opportunity to hold one and place it on a horses back would answer many questions for them. Most folks aren't aware that any style of fork can be attached to any style of bar, and that those pieces constructed by the tree maker are open to interpretation. Although all the custom, hand made tree makers I know of are very consistent with their own patterns and construction techniques, there are no standards in our trade to define a standard or “base line” for rock, twist, and flair for a particular horse type (not breed), as well as the fork design( I believe Dennis Lane's card system will definately move us in the right direction for fit). However, after having the opportunity to inspect and evaluate a number of trees from different makers there are only subtle differences in the bottom side profiles of the bars among the well known custom makers( and I stress custom makers). Most of the difference is in the angle and spread they have. Makers of hand made trees have the ability to translate their rock, twist, and flair profiles to any width of bar, whether it be a wider(Northwest) bar or a narrower(Arizona) bar and ending up with the same fit, only less surface area contacting the horse. Northwest and Arizona mean about as much to me as Semi-Quarter horse, Quarter horse, and Full-Quarter horse bars. These are terms that have been, in my opinion, used unsuccessfully in the equine industry only adding to the confusion and mystery of the saddle tree. The same goes for a Wade front. When someone orders a Wade tree or complete saddle from me, I speak to them in terms of dimensions. Sometimes they will have a picture...that's easy to interpret. I have yet to see any of the mass producers of trees that have been able to interpret a true Wade, with the exception of Sonny Felkins, and I'm not wild about all of his.

Jon

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Here is our understanding of what makes a Wade, a Wade.

The Basics:

1.) It has a wooden horn. If it has a metal horn, it is NOT a Wade, regardless of what it is called.

2.) The stock thickness (thickness front to back of the block of wood the fork is cut from) is longer. Most metal horn trees have a stock thickness of 3 ¾” or 3 ½”, while the Wade is traditionally 5”. We don’t know if this was the original stock thickness, but it has become the standard now. However, we commonly build what we call “Modified Wades” with stock thicknesses from 4 ½” up to 6”. (This is where some of the other names may come in. For instance, as far as we understand it, a “Ray Hunt” Wade has a 4 ½” stock rather than the traditional 5”.) The way we see it, the thicker stock is needed to have enough wood available for larger horn cap sizes and to balance the “look” of a larger horn.

3.) A Wade is a slick fork, not a swell fork. Again, we don’t know the exact shape of the original tree, but now it is pretty variable. You can order different fork widths from very slick to almost swell. This may also the source of some of the other names. Rather than giving them a numerical width (which really doesn’t mean anything as there is no real place to measure a slick fork), someone gave them different names to distinguish the shapes.

4.) It has a thin gullet. Because it has a wooden horn, there is no need for the thickness that is necessary for the length of screw used to hold a metal horn into the fork so the gullet itself can be made thinner. This means that for the same amount of clearance at the hand hole, the horn is closer to the horse’s back, reducing the leverage when roping. (On our trees, this is almost an inch difference.)

5.) THE FACT THAT A TREE IS A WADE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW IT FITS THE HORSE. Can I emphasize this any more??? You can get the same low clearance with other fork styles if you order them correctly, and other than a longer bar tip to accommodate the thicker stock, there is no “standard change” that makes the fit of bars attached to a Wade fork different from the fit of bars attached to any other style of fork. Most hand made tree makers we know have one or maybe two bar types total. This “bar type”, for us anyway, has to do with the shape of the outline of the bar. (The absence of a back stirrup groove can be another factor influencing “bar type” if the tree maker chooses to build them that way.) The width and angle at which they are placed and the amount of rock, twist and the curve of the bottom of the bar are all completely independent of the shape of the outside of the bar. I would assume that if one were using duplicating machines in producing the bars, it would not be easy to change these in an independent manner, so one “bar type” may fit in a specific way while another may fit differently. But this is all because that one maker builds them that way, not because the “name” has anything to do with the fit. And, as may have been mentioned once or twice, every tree maker does things differently. Hand making bars individually gives you the flexibility to change every one of the variables independently. The fork style or horn type you put on a tree HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BARS with the exception of a longer bar tip on the Wade bars. And we even cut this back to “normal” when requested for bulgy shouldered horses.

Further Explanation:

6.) Because it has a wooden horn, the diameter of the horn must be greater to be strong enough to handle roping. This gives more surface area per wrap, which is an advantage when dallying. If you tie hard and fast anyway, there is no advantage of a wooden horn over a metal horn. We don’t know the specs of the horn on the original Wade, but the height of the horn, pitch of the horn cap or cap size are all variable now.

7.) Along with the thicker stock, which of course means a longer gullet lip, comes a change in the angle of the top of the fork. If the same angle were used on a 5” stock as the more common 3 ¾” or 3 ½” stock, it would look like it were running severely downhill simply because it goes out further, and would be more likely to contact the wither. The angle is changed so the gullet lip is raised compared to the angle on a metal horn tree. This also gives more clearance at the gullet lip, since you have lowered the gullet lip by decreasing the gullet thickness.

8.) There is no such thing as a set “Wade bar” that is consistent between makers. Most “Wade bars” have a longer bar tip to accommodate the extra stock thickness of a Wade fork. This is the biggest difference. They are often also a bit deeper or, in other words, the bars themselves are a bit wider. Since these saddles are meant to be all day using saddles, this is a benefit as it distributes the pressure over a wider surface area. This would be the only reason they may be seen as being better for long rides. Honestly though, if the length of ride is a factor in what bar you order, something is wrong with the bars you don’t order!! Any good fitting tree should be able to be used for long rides.