Prototype, variation on the Avenger style

[Lobo]

I've had an idea bouncing around in my head for a year or so for a variation on the Avenger style holster design. I've also had a very nice Kimber Custom Shop CDP .45 pistol for some time and hadn't gotten around to making a holster for it. So, I decided to do a prototype of the idea and make it for the Kimber, thereby killing two birds with one stone.

The basic Avenger style, as made by many makers over the past 25 years or so, is said to have been originated by Colonel Charles Askins, noted writer and afficianado of the 1911 style pistol. In the typical form this style is an envelope-style in construction with wings added aft of the trigger guard reminiscent of the pancake style belt slots. A tunnel-loop belt attachment on the back of the holster carries the weight of the handgun and the belt slot pulls the holster snugly into the body. This style will be seen both with and without a reinforcement band around the holster mouth, typically as part of the sewn-on tunnel loop assembly.

The idea that I have been considering involves two variations: first, to see just how high a ride this style holster will support while still keeping the butt of the weapon securely held into the user's side; second, to incorporate a welted seam which adds rigidity to the wing area and rear belt attachment.

The full-size 1911 style pistol is a good test of this approach. It has the length and weight necessary to test the concepts involved thoroughly.

I opted to go without the mouth reinforcement for two reasons. First, in my experience a holster made of 8-oz. cowhide seldom requires such reinforcement, particularly for OWB use. Second, the reinforcement band adds bulk in an area that we want to keep concealable.

The welted-seam construction also allows for the rear belt slot to be cut into only the rear panel of the holster, with the welt providing a nice tunnel-style attachment. This permits only one layer of leather under the belt at the belt attachment point, thereby eliminating the "lump" of two layers typical of the pancake-style belt slots, with the result being a modest improvement in comfort.

I made this holster with approx. 7 to 8 degrees butt-forward cant. This is my personal preference, especially with automatics, because increased cant requires more rotation of the wrist when drawing the pistol from a high-ride holster. The more that we rotate the wrist, the less grip strength we have.

As usual, I pre-formed the belt loops and slot using a wooden mandrel 1.5" X 0.25" in dimensions. This permits easy use of the heavier and thicker belts without requiring a great deal of effort in break-in.

The Kimber CDP (Custom Defensive Pistol) is a product of Kimber's Custom Shop. It features just about every upgrade applicable to a carry pistol, including Kimber's full "carry melt" treatment during which all sharp edges are radiused. The CDP will easily fit into any holster properly formed for a 1911 style pistol, but removal of all the sharp edges means that the fit will be less than perfectly matched. This holster was formed directly on the CDP, so it has the best possible fit.

Here is the result, which I will be wearing for the foreseeable future. The welted seam (9-oz cowhide) adds significantly to the rigidity of the holster and keeps the grip frame firmly against my side. The holster rides on the belt with only 2.5" below the belt line. This permits better concealment with shorter cover garments. Even without mouth reinforcement this holster will support a 12-pound steel shop anvil when lying flat on a table with no distortion of the holster mouth.

I am thinking that it should be possible to raise the ride another 1/2" to 3/4" without difficulties. Other handguns like the Glock 19, Kahrs, and Colt Defender can be carried with practically nothing projecting below the belt line.

The sharp-eyed folks looking at these photos will note one problem: my pattern ended up covering the magazine release button, which is not good (holster pressure might depress the magazine release enough to release the magazine). This will be corrected on future production.

[dickf]

Lobo,

First off, nice pistol. Those Kimbers are real nice. My brother has a Clackamas-made Custom, and it's real perty.

The prototype looks good!

I like the idea. I've never made an Avenger style holster, but the reasons to use one are pretty clear. Your high-ride design is one that I'm sure many will be interested in.

Regarding the welt area: I didn't see it in your photos. From your post, I gather the welt is on the rear wing, but then re-reading and re-examining the photos, I'm not so sure. I thought a welt was an area where you add another layer to increase thickness to decrease width. I do know that what you have created is a hidden tunnel loop on the rear slot, and our own BOOMSTICK does a magnificent job at this. He could probably advise you on certain aspects of keeping it strong and maybe certain anomalies with this style. If the welt is indeed what I thought it was, then I don't see how adding it would help all too much keeping the grip in. Seems to me that a welted area with slot cut normally and put behind the belt would offer more rigidity and stability.

Even without mouth reinforcement this holster will support a 12-poundsteel shop anvil when lying flat on a table with no distortion of theholster mouth.

I'd be interested in seeing this and knowing what you use to stiffen the mouth up. I'd expect the mouth to close up a little - not crush flat. But no distortion?

Anyway, great start on this and I'll be sure to follow this thread to see the final outcome! I'd also love to see it worn, too.

[Lobo]

Lobo,

First off, nice pistol. Those Kimbers are real nice. My brother has a Clackamas-made Custom, and it's real perty.

The prototype looks good!

I like the idea. I've never made an Avenger style holster, but the reasons to use one are pretty clear. Your high-ride design is one that I'm sure many will be interested in.

Regarding the welt area: I didn't see it in your photos. From your post, I gather the welt is on the rear wing, but then re-reading and re-examining the photos, I'm not so sure. I thought a welt was an area where you add another layer to increase thickness to decrease width. I do know that what you have created is a hidden tunnel loop on the rear slot, and our own BOOMSTICK does a magnificent job at this. He could probably advise you on certain aspects of keeping it strong and maybe certain anomalies with this style. If the welt is indeed what I thought it was, then I don't see how adding it would help all too much keeping the grip in. Seems to me that a welted area with slot cut normally and put behind the belt would offer more rigidity and stability.

I'd be interested in seeing this and knowing what you use to stiffen the mouth up. I'd expect the mouth to close up a little - not crush flat. But no distortion?

Anyway, great start on this and I'll be sure to follow this thread to see the final outcome! I'd also love to see it worn, too.

The welt consists of a piece of 9-10 oz. cowhide cut to fit between the front and back panels throughout the "wing" area (behind the trigger guard and down to the bottom of the holster). The welt is relieved (cut away) in the area of the rear belt attachment. By extending the welt from the bottom of the holster to the rear of the trigger guard there is a significant gain in overall rigidity in the finished holster. By extending the welted area up behind the trigger guard this adds to the ability of the rear belt attachment to pull the holstered handgun in tightly to the body.

The tunnel loop panel sewn on the back side also extends upward to the mouth of the holster, thus adding some rigidity to the rear of the holster.

There is no additional reinforcement of the holster mouth. This holster was "force dried" using applied heat during the drying process. This also adds rigidity to the finished product. It will, indeed, support the steel anvil with no distortion at this point. Of course, all leather products will wear so I don't expect this degree of rigidity to be permanent, but it will always be a solid piece.

Thanks for your comments.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Interesting idea to add a welt to the wing of the holster. 'Never thought of that. Do you have any pictures of the pistol being worn to show the relationship of the grip to your body?

The basic Avenger style, as made by many makers over the past 25 years or so, is said to have been originated by Colonel Charles Askins, noted writer and afficianado of the 1911 style pistol.

I just wanted to point out (since you are interested in holster history) that Bruce Nelson's "Professional" #1 holster was the first holster of this type, and it actually bares a similarity to the design you posted here in regards to the lack of a mouth reinforcement and the style of tunnel loop. I've read conflicting stories on how much Askins was or was not involved with the design of the holster he made famous. Either way, Askins will probably get the credit for the design since his name was synonymous with it after Bianchi's release of the "Askins Avenger" holster.

[troop]

Interesting idea to add a welt to the wing of the holster. 'Never thought of that. Do you have any pictures of the pistol being worn to show the relationship of the grip to your body?

I just wanted to point out (since you are interested in holster history) that Bruce Nelson's "Professional" #1 holster was the first holster of this type, and it actually bares a similarity to the design you posted here in regards to the lack of a mouth reinforcement and the style of tunnel loop. I've read conflicting stories on how much Askins was or was not involved with the design of the holster he made famous. Either way, Askins will probably get the credit for the design since his name was synonymous with it after Bianchi's release of the "Askins Avenger" holster.

very nice job. i make this style of holster regularly and pretty much tout it more than the others. the only problem i can see is by making the tunnel on the wing it reduces the amount of distance to play with regarding the belt loop. i have found that some people like to wear it a bit back or a bit foward. either way you're on the right track with it. i also have been putting the support around the mouth even when using 8-9 oz W/C. just mainly out of habit.....dont know if its really needed.

[Lobo]

Interesting idea to add a welt to the wing of the holster. 'Never thought of that. Do you have any pictures of the pistol being worn to show the relationship of the grip to your body?

I just wanted to point out (since you are interested in holster history) that Bruce Nelson's "Professional" #1 holster was the first holster of this type, and it actually bares a similarity to the design you posted here in regards to the lack of a mouth reinforcement and the style of tunnel loop. I've read conflicting stories on how much Askins was or was not involved with the design of the holster he made famous. Either way, Askins will probably get the credit for the design since his name was synonymous with it after Bianchi's release of the "Askins Avenger" holster.

I will yield to your knowledge on this point of holster design history. Colonel Askins will certainly get the credit for the design, whether or not that is warranted. Mr. Bianchi's contributions toward marketing this style certainly made it well known (and that is not a criticism; John Bianchi is a legend in his own right).

I will try to talk the lovely Mrs. Lobo into taking a few photos showing this holster gracing the slender and graceful middle-aged figure of Mr. Lobo (great-grandfather emeritus). We will see if the camera lens survives that exercise.

[Lobo]

very nice job. i make this style of holster regularly and pretty much tout it more than the others. the only problem i can see is by making the tunnel on the wing it reduces the amount of distance to play with regarding the belt loop. i have found that some people like to wear it a bit back or a bit foward. either way you're on the right track with it. i also have been putting the support around the mouth even when using 8-9 oz W/C. just mainly out of habit.....dont know if its really needed.

I see your point on holster positioning (amount of distance to play with regarding the belt loop). My usual advice to customers is to have the belt loops relocated on new trousers so that they do not interfere with holster placement. I also advise customers to have a panel of lightweight canvas sewn into the linings of their suit coats and jackets to prevent "printing" of the holstered handgun. Just a few lessons that I learned during my years in law enforcement, carrying concealed handguns on a daily basis.

For your law enforcement clientele, such modifications of their trousers (having belt loops moved and re-sewn) and jackets (installing panels to prevent "printing" of the holstered handgun), all of these modifications can make the clothing a tax-deductible business expense because of the (extensive) modifications required for business use. OK, I got away with it for years; advise your customers to seek the advice of a competent attorney or certified public accountant!

[Lobo]

OK, boys and girls, Mrs. Lobo consented to take a few photos. Don't let the sleek and debonair figure of old Lobo Himself get you all worked up, as I am happily married to the lovely lady who took these pic's!

These show the holster described lying on a tabletop with my "shop anvil" (a 5.5" length section of railroad rail weighing something over 12 pounds) on top of it in the obverse and inverse position. The holster supports the weight with no significant distortion.

The other photos show the holster with Kimber Custom CDP riding on El Lobo's sveldt and slender body, displaying the low-profile of the holstered package from several angles. Note that the "tunnel" treatment at the wing section allows for the cover garment to ride smoothly over the holstered handgun.

I like this holster a lot. I wore it all day today, in multiple settings, in and out of the truck several times, and it is very comfortable in every respect.

[troop]

very nice fit! that is one of the reasons i recommend this style of holser....holds close to the body and doesn't collapse. i may not have noticed the the trim sveldt body you were referring to....but were those beads of frost i noticed on the can budweiser????

[Lobo]

I think that I shall never hear

A poem lovelier than beer

That golden brew they have on tap

With golden base and snowy cap

That foamy stuff we drink all day

While all our memories slip away

Poems are made by fools, I fear

But only Bud can make a beer.

LoboGunLeather, fueled by Anheuser Busch products in the pursuit of excellence. (Poetry is NOT my medium!).

[Bronson]

Lobo I very much like the looks of that.

Would you mind if I used your welt-in-the-wing idea for a similar holster I've got kickin' around in my head?

Thanks,

Bronson

[Lobo]

Lobo I very much like the looks of that.

Would you mind if I used your welt-in-the-wing idea for a similar holster I've got kickin' around in my head?

Thanks,

Bronson

As for this use of a welt being my idea, I will only go so far as to say that I have applied an existing technique to a fairly common style of holster to achieve an end that I was interested in pursuing. Like so many other things that we see, something very similar has almost certainly been done by others before us.

That said, so far as I am concerned, please feel free to go forward with your plan. I am sure that you will develop this concept further, which is a good thing in my opinion.

This style of welted holster construction adds significantly to the time required to produce a holster (multiple patterns, additional pieces to cut, another stitching pattern, etc). This factor by itself will probably keep major manufacturers from using it, as additional time equals reduced profits in mass production and marketing.

[katsass]

The welt consists of a piece of 9-10 oz. cowhide cut to fit between the front and back panels throughout the "wing" area (behind the trigger guard and down to the bottom of the holster). The welt is relieved (cut away) in the area of the rear belt attachment. By extending the welt from the bottom of the holster to the rear of the trigger guard there is a significant gain in overall rigidity in the finished holster. By extending the welted area up behind the trigger guard this adds to the ability of the rear belt attachment to pull the holstered handgun in tightly to the body.

The tunnel loop panel sewn on the back side also extends upward to the mouth of the holster, thus adding some rigidity to the rear of the holster.

There is no additional reinforcement of the holster mouth. This holster was "force dried" using applied heat during the drying process. This also adds rigidity to the finished product. It will, indeed, support the steel anvil with no distortion at this point. Of course, all leather products will wear so I don't expect this degree of rigidity to be permanent, but it will always be a solid piece.

Thanks for your comments.

Good morning Lobo. Great design, fantastic execution and great coments re: the repositioning of belt loops etc. I always thought that repositioning the belt loops was sort of the curse of being left-handed and just did it as a normal course of action for myself. I seldom use reinforcement at the holster mouth as I use two layers of 4/5 oz leather bonded together (flesh to flesh) for the body on almost all my holsters. This done, and when dried for 24 or so hours in the desert heat (95 to 105 and a humidity level of less than 15%) after molding, I guess that I get the same effect as your "force drying". Anyhoo, when dryed this way the things are very rigid and actually stay thay way for years. Again, great work! Mike

[Lobo]

Good morning Lobo. Great design, fantastic execution and great coments re: the repositioning of belt loops etc. I always thought that repositioning the belt loops was sort of the curse of being left-handed and just did it as a normal course of action for myself. I seldom use reinforcement at the holster mouth as I use two layers of 4/5 oz leather bonded together (flesh to flesh) for the body on almost all my holsters. This done, and when dried for 24 or so hours in the desert heat (95 to 105 and a humidity level of less than 15%) after molding, I guess that I get the same effect as your "force drying". Anyhoo, when dryed this way the things are very rigid and actually stay thay way for years. Again, great work! Mike

Thank you, Mike. Very kind comments. I live in Pueblo, Colorado where we share much of the desert climate (very low humidity, very high summer temperatures); unfortunately today we set a record low temperature, and it has been pretty humid for a week or so. On average, if we were to receive about 1" less precipitation per year we would be officially classified as a desert region. My shop is on the banks of the Arkansas River, and I frequently see nothing but dust and a trickle of moisture from time to time.

I have updated my website with this variation on the original style, and have already received an inquiry from a customer (to whom I shipped an original Avenger style holster just a few days ago). Fortunately, this customer recognizes the difference and has sent a new order for another holster in the new pattern, so the heat factor hasn't gotten me this time. Since this customer is a repeat customer I have offered him a good discount in exchange for his testing the new product and offering his comments. Being a retired cop, I have several regular "testers" for new products, but I see an opportunity for gaining new insights from another source here.

Thank goodness for air conditioning in the American southwest!

[303brit]

Very nice design Lobo, I was searching for a new holster to make and had to give that one a try.

I usually make hybrid IWB holsters but had the itch to get back into the full leather.

I checked out your web page, you do some very nice work. Good to see a Colorado neighbor doing well.

[Lobo]

Very nice design Lobo, I was searching for a new holster to make and had to give that one a try.

I usually make hybrid IWB holsters but had the itch to get back into the full leather.

I checked out your web page, you do some very nice work. Good to see a Colorado neighbor doing well.

Thank you, 303brit. By coincidence, just yesterday I completed one for the Glock 19 with neutral cant.

I have added the "Enhanced Avenger" and "Enhanced Pancake" models to my product line, and interest has been very good. These two new models now account for 30% of orders since the first of this year.

Attached photos show the Enhanced Avenger with mouth reinforcement for the Colt Commander and Enhanced Pancake for the 1911, recently shipped out.