Roping Saddles...an evolution?

[olroper99]

Hi all!

I'm just throwing some thoughts out here after a "new found" discovery about a year ago.

I've got back into teamroping only a year ago after 17 years of "retirement".

I roped at the highest level you could back in the day...the Open division of the Canadian Teamroping Association.

One of my goals was to rope til I won a saddle and some other things long forgotten.

I needed to take time from roping to be a real Dad to my kids so I actually did quit shortly after I won a regional championship saddle.

I roped out of many saddles over the years but was lucky enough to find a used CloverBar roper that was very well made and fit me better than anything I'd ever roped out of.

I heeled thousands of steers out of that ol saddle.

The new saddle I won was a run of the mill trophy saddle but it had one difference. It had a 14 1/2" seat. I was used to a 15" seat but was very suprised at how nice that shorter seat was.

Anyway...I soon found out that saddle was a very cheaply made saddle and decided to get rid of it before it fell apart. I liked it but knew it would never hold up.

I ended up selling everything after I quit.

Almost 20 years later...I get talked into training a couple of heel horses for a girl and got the ropin bug again.

So...I started the quest to buy all new gear.

A couple of guys told me about this "mystical" new generation roping saddle that one of the ropers had picked up in the US during the winter.

I tracked the guy down and sat in it. It was a Cactus roper.

I couldn't believe this thing!!!! All I had to do was rock my pelvis very slightly and I was standing up in perfect position and was locked into the swells.

He was a big guy....this saddle had a short 14 1/2" seat like my trophy saddle had but it just fit far better.

so...off to Alberta..went to every tack store in the country to track me down one of these new ropers.

I asked all the sales staff for one to try. None of them knew what I meant.

So I just started sitting in saddles. I bet I sat in over a hundred in many different stores.

I finally went to a store north of Cowgary...sat in about 20 saddles and low and behold...2 Cactus saddles and One Reinsman saddle had this new "feel".

I ended up buying the Clay Tryan Reinsman saddle and it is everything the guys said it would be....not really the saddle it's self but the style.

I don't find the saddle to be very well made and still feel foolish that I spent over $2500 for a fiberglass (looks like it) covered tree. It's not a Rawlide tree but it doesn't look like any hide covered tree I've ever seen. I never even looked...I prolly wouldn't have bought it if I'd have known it didn't have a hide covered tree in it. I just assumed a "better" class of factory made saddle would have a good hide covered tree in it.

Long story...I just love roping out of this rig. The heel end anyway.

I find I get thrown ahead too easy when heading out of it. It's the exact same way when you ride outside the arena with it. Any downhill riding makes for a very difficult time...you are constantly being thrown ahead....worse than any saddle I've ever ridden.

I haven't had a chance to compare this to any of the older saddles like my ol CloverBar but as near as I can figure...they have flattend out the front rise in the seat a bit and moved the stirrups back a bit.

I see most of the roping saddles today are 7/8 rigged. Back when...most where full rigged.

I want to build my next saddle and want some of that feel but not quite as severe as this one.

I've built two saddles years ago on used Association type trees but I'm lost on where to go with this one.

Just wondering if anyone here has had the chance or interest to find out what is the difference in the new gen ropers...

Is it just in the seat and the stirrup placement or is there something new in the tree design?

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Russ

[Denise]

Russ,

I don't have the answer to your question. It sure would be interesting to see the side profile of the seat and saddles of your new one versus your old one. Any chance of posting some pictures of them? The Cactus Saddlery site is not dial up friendly so I can't see them there.

There are people on here who arena rope so they are much more knowledgable than I am in how they want the seat to place them. The effect of shortening the seat and not moving the stirrups would be to place the low point of the seat much more over the stirrups, putting your feet much further back under you. That would make it much easier to be up and forward in the saddle. I wonder if they have made the seat shape different as well to help you move that way? Is the fork more stood up? Is there more leg cut on the fork? Both of these would help to make enough room for your leg when the cantle is that close to the fork. That is where comparison pictures of the saddles would help a lot.

[olroper99]

Denise...you make some good points.

I wish I still had my old saddle so I could take pics to compare the two. I wish I had it so I could measure them both to see what the differences are.

All I know for sure is that this new one is so easy to rope out of it's in a class of it's own.

The Cactus saddle I tried was the same way...very little movement and you are standing up with your thighs in perfect position.

I have to add tho...when your horse goes to buckin it's not the greatest rig to try to get by on...lol! All too easy to get thrown over the front.

I'll put up with it tho.

I have to try to figure out what I'm doing wrong trying to post pics here.

I have a fairly decent pic of the saddle and will try to get it up here.

Russ

[olroper99]

Ok...I'm tryin...

Nevr 1.bmp

Nevr 1.bmp

Edited January 22, 2010 by olroper99

[Denise]

olroper,

Here is a link to instructions about posting pictures. If I can do it, anyone can!

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15122

Note: There is a size limit per post. And if you can compress the pictures to be 200 kb or so, that sure helps those of us still out in dial up land. Thanks!

[olroper99]

Denise...I posted a ink above.

Ummm...I'm hating this dialup out here in ol' SK also.

I'm very used to hispeed back in BC.

This um...um...just sukks! LOL!

[HanginH]

Hey Denise and Russ,

Just wanted to jump in on this thread as I am interested in the same things when I build my next saddle which will be used calf roping and I want something that gets me to the front to rope with ease. I have rode a coupe of different saddles made by Todd Sloan and Cactus and one of the major things that I have noticed with them is that they are pretty flat from the front to the back of the seat which in the two that I rode made them quite wide to sit in but were great for roping because there wasn't a deep pocket in the seat to try and get up and over to get stood up to the front. I had a look at the picture you posted and compared to a ranch saddle the pocket in the seat of your saddle looks relatively small and the cantle appears to be stood up just slightly which I think both attribute to the ease which you can stand up and get to the front of the saddle. Also being a bit taller and 215lbs I had always rode a 16" seat length but after riding a couple of 14 1/2 inch saddles I believe that Denise is correct that it allows for the stirrups to be centered under or almost behind you as opposed to out front. Like you say not the greatest rig to be out riding downhill in all day because you basically bounce off the swells for the entire ride. Denise I think you would have better input into this seeing as you and Rod make trees (by the way love both of the trees you have made that I am working on), but I thought that I heard someone say that on roping saddles they will get the tree maker to shave the front of the bars down slightly to make them lower up front which would also make a difference to the seat profile. Not sure if that is possible or not without compromising the tree.

Anyway just wanted to weigh in with my two cents.

Thanks and happy trails,

Justin Hozack

Calgary Alberta

[Denise]

It is hard to tell on that picture a lot about the tree shape to see if there are any differences there. If you compare the lowest point on the seat to the stirrup position, you will have your feet pretty far under you. The seat still has some rise to it. Not as flat as a lot of cutters are. We have both added bar risers and flattened the front of the seat varying amounts on request. We are often asked to flatten the seat a little on calf roping saddles. Not a problem to do.

I wonder if there may be something done construction wise with the fenders to prevent the stirrups from moving forwards? I don't know about that at all. It will have to be the saddle makers chiming in with that information for you.

Thanks for the compliment on the trees Justin. Post some pictures when you are done the saddles! Love to see them.

[bruce johnson]

My random thoughts here. The arena roping saddles have gone through a change to shorter seats, just as the cutting boards have gone to longer seats. Both of these were taken to extremes, and seem to be drifting back again. Fat guys cramming into 14" seat ropers doesn't work much better than skinnys sloshing in 17 inch boards.

Most of what I see in the ropers is the shorter seat brings you up over the stirrup slots more. Push on your feet and you are there. It can be a factor of the cantle being forward and the slots in the same place, the slots back a little more than normal, or the groundwork built so the leathers are at the back dedge of the slots. Your feet are under or even slightly behind you. Good to brace yourself coming out and get up and forward. You tend not to slap back down on a big lunge. The lower front to the seat helps with that too. The lower TM swells don't get in the way until your horse scotches and your thigh slams into that square edge of a leg cut you could never use anyway. I don't think Tod Slone was the first guy to revolutionize the shorter seats, but he sure made them popular.

A couple things to watch for. Some of these saddles have really wide bar spreads in the front. That can make the fork sit lower on the horse and the horn lower. You can get that "2 finger clearance" that was pounded into our heads. Sometimes it comes at the expense of the tree sittng downhill-forward on the horse though, and that can bring its own set of problems. Some of the extreme flat seats can contact the back of the withers on some horse depending on how far forward the saddle is set and if the breast collar in cinching it in place.

I don't kow about other guys, but before these saddles got a little more common, I would get some requests to put reverse binds on the stirrup leathers to keep them back some. For a while Smith Bros and some of the other suppliers sold a little pad thing that fit into the dish of the cantle and laced in place at the corners. It shortened the seats up some.

Kind of the problems are that these short seats and the stirrups under or behind is limiting. Down hill riding or a colt taking a jump with you will put your feet behind you. On the other hand getting up over the front and the wider seat holding you out there instead of shading to the middle give you advantage roping.

As far as trees, a lot of these are made on fiberglassed trees, but it isn't the same glassing process used 20 years ago by most makers either. Most of them have the groundseat glassed in place with the tree, and that is supposed to bind things better and strengthen the tree. They get more strength in the seat with less thickness than a leather or strainer seat, so the buildup can be lower. Some use glass reinforced and rawhided trees, and some are full rawhide, somebody probably still will do a double rawhide cover too.

[Kevinjohnson]

Howard Council is, without a doubt, the grandfather of the modern roping saddle. He is to the calf roping saddle what Henry Ford is to the automobile. What Micheal Jordan is to basketball. What Wyoming Slim is to craftools (just kidding). Most of the modern day look of a roping saddle can be traced back to Howard. Deep tooling, cut-outs under latigos and billets, glued down housings and jockeys w/ plugs and fillers in places most people have never thought of putting plugs....all of which Howard combined to create the functional, modern look. If you are a World Champion calf roper or tripper, odds are that you have rode or owned a Council. I recall Howard saying that one or more years at the NFR, the majority of the top 15 calf ropers were riding one of his saddles. His saddles are made to fit a horse, first and foremost, and then made to encourage a rodeo winning run. This being said, you probably are not going to want to ride this type of saddle all day long. The same reason you are not going to try and make an 8 second tripping run in a cutting saddle. Many have tried to copy Howard and very few have ever accomplished this.

[Hennessy]

i've been in and around a few of the greenville tex mex saddleshops if'n they were in arizona[well nuff said] if theres a short cut to be had they've explored it,some are magnificent in their simplicity. most all of them seem to stay busy year round,mostly because ,the majority of buyers are buyin wholesale and that is a dog eat dog market where price wins out and quality is not what it appears to be..trees majority are mexico made,rawhide on good wood [i,ve had a few] quality questionable as to symentry,leather mexico or argentina again ok but questionable,hardware china or mexico, nails [american i think] screws i see a lot of sheetrock black metal [look em up in a few years ]indusive to corrosion of surrounding leather [not all but i've seen them used]stirrups mostly cover'd mexico.you cant put all the greenville shops in the same box but real quality people suffer in their efforts [shops too] because the rub comes when some good ol boy in spokane or edmonton or wherever seeks a good feelin saddle that appears to do all he wants,and pays out the nose for a so call'd shop name which in reality could have been one of a deal[buy two get one free] marketing ploy. i have seen many shop saddles where a nail driven down in the heart of the skirt[back cantle area] no foolin its common amongst the greenville saddlemakers.the short seats were here from the beginning when people rode to work every day, also there was'nt any mcdonalds or sonics aboot eh!the stirrups setting back ,i've seen ground seats with no leather stopper at lea channel back. tin and one piece of leather where the leathers will slide back under you.as a lad i observed [probably at the sat afternoon movies]some indians who were tryin to escape pursuit they went to draggin a shrub behind them on the ground covering their trail.we all know how to drag the brush ,me i like to paint with mine but when every penny counts and price demands thrift,well let me say this price no more sets quality but craftmanship does. seek and ye shall find,discuss and it will be built unto you and the horse comes first eh!

[hidepounder]

I can't believe I missed this post! The idea of cramming yourself into a saddle that is too small for you has been around for at least fifteen years now. I think it was Crates that came out with the "Beers Roper" which fitted you into a 14" seat when you should be riding a 15-1/2" seat. The concept was to compensate for a guy's inablility to ride his horse. Squeeze a guy into a small seat with a high cantle and he didn't have to think about falling off! Of course he never thought about learning to ride his horse in the first place or he wouldn't be looking for a gimmick to get by with. Guys bought them because it was easy to stand up, as Russ suggested. The problem, however, was that they could never sit back down in the saddle or get their feet back in front of them when they needed too. It's a great thing to be able to get forward coming out of the box and standing up to head, however, it is necessary to get back down in the saddle and get your feet forward again before you get hold on the steers head. A horse needs to be able to handle the weight of the steer with his hind end and most guys who are riding saddles which are too small are unable to sit back down and push to the back of the saddle. Consequently their feet are behind them which results in their weight being over the swells, whether they are standing or not. This causes your horse to be out of balance and forces him to take a hold of the steer with his front end. It's hard on the horse, it teaches him to drop his left shoulder, the rider is out of control and you have now greatly diminished your opportunity to handle the steer correctly. This just doesn't sound like a good thing to me!

Similarly when heeling, it is necessary to get to the back of the saddle upon delivery of the rope and the guy crammed into the saddle cannot do that. His weight is forward over the swells, which forces the horse to step forward and stop on his front end rather than stopping and handling the steer off his rear end. The more forward movement means more lost feet.

Another consequence of riding a seat which is too small is that when your body is out of balance over the front of your horse, the rider tends to compensate by using their feet. That results in a lot of undesired foot and leg signals. How many times have you seen a guy lose his temper at his horse because the horse kept moving forward......because the rider was unknowingly squeezing him forward in an effort to maintain his balance. It makes about as much sense as spurring your horse around the corner to a heel shot while you're hauling back on his face!

A good roping saddle gets your feet directly under you so that one has the ablity to ride down the arena with your weight on your feet and off of the seat, Now he can stand up and brace on the swells and then sit back down and push to the back of the saddle to help the horse to utilize his rear end. It is important to be able to do both. As far as I am concerned riding a saddle that is too small for you is nothing more than a sales gimmick that enabled guys who couldn't ride to compensate for not learning. You won't see any of the good rope horse trainers riding that way. The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a huge amount of roping talent out there and far less riding talent. These young guys today are so good with a rope that they can overcome their lack of riding skills but in the long run they are defeated by the guys that can ride. Lets face it....there are so many trully amazing ropers out there that the difference between winning and losing these days is in the roper's horse and his ablity to ride him. So I'll put my money in a saddle that fits me and allows me to stay out of my horse's way. He'll do his job if I let him.

The other thing that just amazes me is the number of guys riding poorly made trophy saddles that they won somewhere. They may feel good for a while but very few of them are quality saddles. I know my first trophy saddle came apart in the middle of a short round about six months after I won it. It was embarrassing, expensive, humiliating and my partner didn't speak to me for a week! In my opinion Cactus, Crates, Courts, HRS, Reinsman, Taylors, Martins, etc., are all entry level saddles. They are production saddles, many are made in the same shops and they are popular for their price which is around $2500. There is nothing wrong with them but don't expect them to last for a long time. Most ropers will not spend the money to buy a quality saddle. I think that is mostly out of ignorance. I would expect to pay $4500 to $7500 for a good quality roping saddle that you can expect to rope in safely for many years and not sore your horse. However, if you ride a roper outside you are probably going to be crippled at the end of the day. The saddle will hold up but your body won't. A roping saddle is not intended to be be ridden for an extended period of time. They are used for short periods of time and that is the very reason so many people can get away with using production saddles as oppossed to having to have a good saddle made.

Well that's my two cents worth and I guess I've spouted off about enough for now...

Bobby

[Ken Nelson]

I can't believe I missed this post! The idea of cramming yourself into a saddle that is too small for you has been around for at least fifteen years now. I think it was Crates that came out with the "Beers Roper" which fitted you into a 14" seat when you should be riding a 15-1/2" seat. The concept was to compensate for a guy's inablility to ride his horse. Squeeze a guy into a small seat with a high cantle and he didn't have to think about falling off! Of course he never thought about learning to ride his horse in the first place or he wouldn't be looking for a gimmick to get by with. Guys bought them because it was easy to stand up, as Russ suggested. The problem, however, was that they could never sit back down in the saddle or get their feet back in front of them when they needed too. It's a great thing to be able to get forward coming out of the box and standing up to head, however, it is necessary to get back down in the saddle and get your feet forward again before you get hold on the steers head. A horse needs to be able to handle the weight of the steer with his hind end and most guys who are riding saddles which are too small are unable to sit back down and push to the back of the saddle. Consequently their feet are behind them which results in their weight being over the swells, whether they are standing or not. This causes your horse to be out of balance and forces him to take a hold of the steer with his front end. It's hard on the horse, it teaches him to drop his left shoulder, the rider is out of control and you have now greatly diminished your opportunity to handle the steer correctly. This just doesn't sound like a good thing to me!

Similarly when heeling, it is necessary to get to the back of the saddle upon delivery of the rope and the guy crammed into the saddle cannot do that. His weight is forward over the swells, which forces the horse to step forward and stop on his front end rather than stopping and handling the steer off his rear end. The more forward movement means more lost feet.

Another consequence of riding a seat which is too small is that when your body is out of balance over the front of your horse, the rider tends to compensate by using their feet. That results in a lot of undesired foot and leg signals. How many times have you seen a guy lose his temper at his horse because the horse kept moving forward......because the rider was unknowingly squeezing him forward in an effort to maintain his balance. It makes about as much sense as spurring your horse around the corner to a heel shot while you're hauling back on his face!

A good roping saddle gets your feet directly under you so that one has the ablity to ride down the arena with your weight on your feet and off of the seat, Now he can stand up and brace on the swells and then sit back down and push to the back of the saddle to help the horse to utilize his rear end. It is important to be able to do both. As far as I am concerned riding a saddle that is too small for you is nothing more than a sales gimmick that enabled guys who couldn't ride to compensate for not learning. You won't see any of the good rope horse trainers riding that way. The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a huge amount of roping talent out there and far less riding talent. These young guys today are so good with a rope that they can overcome their lack of riding skills but in the long run they are defeated by the guys that can ride. Lets face it....there are so many trully amazing ropers out there that the difference between winning and losing these days is in the roper's horse and his ablity to ride him. So I'll put my money in a saddle that fits me and allows me to stay out of my horse's way. He'll do his job if I let him.

The other thing that just amazes me is the number of guys riding poorly made trophy saddles that they won somewhere. They may feel good for a while but very few of them are quality saddles. I know my first trophy saddle came apart in the middle of a short round about six months after I won it. It was embarrassing, expensive, humiliating and my partner didn't speak to me for a week! In my opinion Cactus, Crates, Courts, HRS, Reinsman, Taylors, Martins, etc., are all entry level saddles. They are production saddles, many are made in the same shops and they are popular for their price which is around $2500. There is nothing wrong with them but don't expect them to last for a long time. Most ropers will not spend the money to buy a quality saddle. I think that is mostly out of ignorance. I would expect to pay $4500 to $7500 for a good quality roping saddle that you can expect to rope in safely for many years and not sore your horse. However, if you ride a roper outside you are probably going to be crippled at the end of the day. The saddle will hold up but your body won't. A roping saddle is not intended to be be ridden for an extended period of time. They are used for short periods of time and that is the very reason so many people can get away with using production saddles as oppossed to having to have a good saddle made.

Well that's my two cents worth and I guess I've spouted off about enough for now...

Bobby

Mr. Park, Well put and I could not agree with you more. MY HAT IS OFF TO YOU, SIR!!!! Ken