Standards, Breaking New Ground...

[Denise]

Not saying no. Just difficult. What's the saying about the impossible taking a little longer? It would take a bunch of people to be willing to leave their egos at the door and be wanting to work together for the same purpose, which in this case would be wanting to set standards in the first place. I think the desire for that is pretty low among makers. (The first question to answer would be "Is this really a good thing overall or not?")It may just take time if it ever happens. I do think it is wise to be keeping track of which way the wind is blowing in regards to standards though. If it looks like someone is going to be serious about making them, then those of us in the hand made/custom world better be aware of it and get our voices heard. The last thing I would want would be to have standards imposed that were contrary to what we feel is correct.

[BOB BRENNER]

A great topic and one that should be ongoing with everyone in the industry, whether one is a custom saddle maker, a production saddle company, supplier, etc. This is a subject I have been involved with both informally and formally over the years and have the battle scars to prove it. Whenever "standards" are even hinted about, it brings out strong emotions and opinions. Many many years ago when I was wet behind the ears an old cowboy told me that "a horse is worth so much a pound and all the rest is emotion". So when we let our emotions get in the way it is hard to have a good conservation or make a good decision and I have been as guilty an anyone, but I am learning. In the words of the cartoon character "We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us".

Everyones’ points so far are well taken and all have valid considerations. So, why are we having this discussion and what is driving it? Several years ago, when my good friend Verlane was still teaching in Spokane, we were having one our weekly "intellectual conversations" on how to solve the world’s problems, and our (for what is worth) opinion, was good or bad the market is driving it. For example, saddle fit. This subject has become front and center only recently, say the last 10 years or so, and giving us all fits in some fashion. About a year ago I was talking the publisher of "The Western Horsemen" about saddle fit and in my opinion a lot of the information was incorrect or misleading. To my surprise, the Oct 2009 issue had a major article on the subject. (A must read for all saddle makers.) The subject of saddle fit is not being driven from within the industry, but from the outside by the consumer or market. The point is that although, I basically agree with "The Western Horsemen" article, the market or consumer is saying something different.

The questions coming up as to standards in relation to rig position, bar angle, etc. is market driven. Folks, I am in the saddle making business to make a living, so I have to listen to the market and if I don’t I will not be in business long. Many years ago the U.S. auto industry did not listen the market, and see where they are now. Have you ever heard the chairman of the board of a major U.S. auto company have a press conference and say we screwed up, like the chairman of the board of Toyota did last week? Over the years I have changed some of my ideas on saddle making that some may not agree with, but I was and am responding to the market.

Maybe bar angles are to much at this time for some type of standards. As mentioned earlier, as saddle makers let’s all talk from the same page. As an example, in my book "How to Establish Prices for the Saddle Maker or Leather Worker" in the "You are Worth it" chapter I have this text.

"At a Colorado Saddle Makers Association meeting we were having a discussion and one the members said; "Go and look at the custom saddles at (a well known retail saddle shop) and see what they do". To which I replied, "They are not custom saddles they are handmade production saddles". Let me tell you the discussion quickly got heated. This illustrates that as an industry, we have no standards. By standards I am not talking about standards on how to build a saddle (to be truthful something to consider - minimum standards), but standards in terminology. What is a "custom saddle"? The definition of "custom" in Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary is "made or performed according to personal order". My question is this: If by definition a custom saddle is made to personal order how can a "custom" saddle be for sale to the general public at a retail saddle shop? Every one in the industry uses the word "custom" without regard to the definition. How can a saddle be custom when in a saddle catalog there is a picture, number, and price? Should we have a standard definition, perhaps something like the following?

A custom saddle is a saddle that is made to the customer's specifications to include tooling/carving and other forms of decoration done completely by hand using no machinery with the possible exception of a sewing machine/stitcher.

NOTE: It is generally the trade practice for an individual saddle maker to make the saddle from start to finish, but occasionally a collaborative effort between one or more saddle makers and or leather artisan (leather carver) is also an acceptable trade practice.

If we as an industry cannot define what a custom saddle is, how can our customers understand what a custom saddle is and value that saddle accordingly? And we wonder why we can’t get what we are worth?"

Maybe we need to take some baby steps first. Let’s keep this discussion going. The more input the better off we will be.

　

My opinion and $5.50 will buy you a Starbucks.

Bob

[Newfman]

Funny, I was thinking about the term Hand made Custom saddle myself. For me, I came to the conclusion that, if was custome made for a horse, it is a custom saddle on that horse. If it were a custome made saddle for a person to the specs he/she wanted, as in design or artwork, then in his ownership it is a custom saddle.

If I buy that saddle from him for my horse. I am the proud owner of a Handmade saddle. Albeit, one that was custom built for someone else. Does that make sense?

As far as the standards thing, again, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding. As things are right now, I could order a 7/8ths rigged saddle from one person here, show it to another and that person may say, "Um, that looks a bit like a three quarter rig to me." And it may well be. It might not. But, if we could agree on a consistent way of measuring the 7/8ths position on a tree, something that would work for all but the most unique trees, we would have a Standard. So, I as a consumer, if I decide i just had to have a 7/8ths rig for my hand made saddle, regardless of who built it, ti would be measurably in the same place. You as an expert may say to the customer, the Standard placement of 7/8ths is a bit forward for your horse, i recommend we move it 1'2 inc back of standard. You still have all the flexibility in the world. Now, when you post a picture of it and someone here says, is that a 7/8ths rigging on that, you would say, No i moved it 1/2" back of standard due to the conformation of the particular horse. We would all, knowingly, nod our heads and understand.

does that make more sense?

That goes for the variety reference points to the saddle. It absolutely does nothing to change how you actually

make

the saddle. That way too, there are no egos to step on, or atleast shouldn't be. It is just a matter of communicating measurments and references in the same language. No matter where you want to ultimately place things.

Sorry Denise, my comment was just a tease. Hence the wink. ;+)