Tippmann Aerostitch Problem (Not Making Stitch)

[luke213]

Alright guys I've got a question for those of you out there with more experience on this machine than me:) (which would be pretty much anyone since I'm just getting things working).

First I'll give a bit of backstory, I saw this aero for sale fairly locally to Houston and picked it up for a good price. Lady's husband had passed away who was a saddle maker and had two of these machines. One functioning which she had sold and this one. I took the gamble and brought it home, sent Tippman a picture and told them to ship me everything I was missing. I also learned that mine apparently(according to Tippmann) never had a manual with vacuum locations and routing since it was a late model and had a new system used. So I also got a hand drawn diagram of where things were supposed to go.

Long story short I spent the last two days getting everything working, lots of little headaches, I'm sure the guy who owned it just robbed parts from one to fix the other. So it works well at least everything moves as it should. (I'm pretty sure) I don't have any real sewing machine experience, my wife is a seamstress but has never worked on a machine like this one.

The symptom is that when I press the pedal the needle goes down all the way and if I'm holding the needle thread very loosely it will pickup the bobbin thread(even a little tension and it won't). Then I string those out behind grab some scrap leather and try to stitch. Needle goes through the leather but doesn't pick up thread off the bobbin to complete the lock stitch. If I hold the thread in hand it will lock but only with very very light tension(almost it jamming because of double stitching). I'm running 277 on top and 207 on bottom at the moment, from what I'm reading that's actually too light for my holsters. First before I worry about that though I need to get the thing to actually throw down a stitch;)

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. I've been in touch with Tippmann but I didn't finish fixing everything else until they closed for the day. So I'm out another day and I still don't have a working machine:) I do however know the pneumatic system in this Tippman back to front and could draw another diagram of it after fiddling so much with it;)

Thanks again!

Luke

[TwinOaks]

I don't have an Aero, but from general experience with my little machines, and from reading on here.....

It sounds like the timing is off, or that the hook isn't close enough to the needle. Possibly that the needle is in backwards.

My reason for this is that you describe " even a little tension" causing a skip. The hook has to pass close enought to, even graze, the needle to pick up the thread. If there's too much gap, the hook passes harmlessly over the thread on the needle, missing it, and there's nothing to wrap around the bobbin thread.

Do check to see if the needle is in backwards, because it would mean that the thread is in the wrong place.

If everything is moving as it should, it sounds like the valves are all working correctly.

I'm sure Art or Barra (or sewmun, wizcrafts, CobraSteve, and many others) will chime in, and they might can give you a more specific answer.

[luke213]

Thanks for the reply appreciate it;)

The needle is in per the directions in the manual best I can tell. The little I think they call it scribe or something, but the area that is ground from the needle is facing the set screw that holds it in place. I tried by advice elsewhere rotating the needle a few degrees one way or the other without any result either. It could very well be timing but I don't honestly know how the timing in these would be adjusted anyone have any idea?

Any other suggestions would also be appreciated it sure feels like it must be something small that I'm just either missing because I'm really not familiar with sewing machines or I guess maybe that's just wishful thinking;)

Thanks again!

Luke

[Denster]

Luke

A couple of things to check. First did you have the bobbin shuttle and cae out of the machine and thoroughly clean it inside and lube and reassemble? Second are you using the correct size needle. For 277 you need a 200S? Third is the needle installed properly? It needs the flat to be at a 90Deg angle facing the inside of the throat which is to your right as you are sitting at the machine. You do have to hols the thread for the first three stitches but not any tension just no slack.

These are simple almost bulletproof machines. Oh one other thing you do have it set to stitch forward don't you. If the stitch length adjustment lever is upright there is no feed and it just runs in place. Hope this helps.

[Denster]

Luke

As to the timing. Watch the Boss videos on the Tippmann website it will show you how the shuttle is supposed to be in. The aerostitch is just a Boss on pneumatic steroids.

[luke213]

Luke

A couple of things to check. First did you have the bobbin shuttle and cae out of the machine and thoroughly clean it inside and lube and reassemble? Second are you using the correct size needle. For 277 you need a 200S? Third is the needle installed properly? It needs the flat to be at a 90Deg angle facing the inside of the throat which is to your right as you are sitting at the machine. You do have to hols the thread for the first three stitches but not any tension just no slack.

These are simple almost bulletproof machines. Oh one other thing you do have it set to stitch forward don't you. If the stitch length adjustment lever is upright there is no feed and it just runs in place. Hope this helps.

I actually was missing the bobbin shuttle and bought one new from Tippmann with the other parts. Tom Black had told me to just use a little air tool oil around that area but keep it fairly clean so that's what I did.

Here is a picture of the needle threaded, I believe it is correct. This is taken facing kinda offset in front of the bobbin area. (ignore the kydex presser foot, it was a test just to get something in there since Tippmann didn't get the foot into my order, so it's in route. Works so far in testing.)

Thanks;)

Luke

Oh and on timing I've seen how it's supposed to work to a degree but I guess I don't understand. Timing is the rotation of the bobbin in relation to the needle stroke correct? So if the bobbin say was only rotated not far enough when the needle hit the bottom of it's travel would cause it to not pick up the bobbin thread?

Thanks again.

Forgot to add that it is a 200 sized needle(according to stamp near the top of the needle).

Luke

[Denster]

I actually was missing the bobbin shuttle and bought one new from Tippmann with the other parts. Tom Black had told me to just use a little air tool oil around that area but keep it fairly clean so that's what I did.

Here is a picture of the needle threaded, I believe it is correct. This is taken facing kinda offset in front of the bobbin area. (ignore the kydex presser foot, it was a test just to get something in there since Tippmann didn't get the foot into my order, so it's in route. Works so far in testing.)

Thanks;)

Luke

Oh and on timing I've seen how it's supposed to work to a degree but I guess I don't understand. Timing is the rotation of the bobbin in relation to the needle stroke correct? So if the bobbin say was only rotated not far enough when the needle hit the bottom of it's travel would cause it to not pick up the bobbin thread?

Thanks again.

Forgot to add that it is a 200 sized needle(according to stamp near the top of the needle).

Luke

Yes that is correct. You appear to have the needle installed correctly but it looks a little low maybe 1/8 in are you sure you have it all the way into the needle bar? When the needle is all the way up the bobbin should be about 10 degrees right of top dead center as you are facing it. With the needle all the way down it should go past 180 degrees. Also that needle looks like a plain 200 rather than a chisel point 200S. If it is and you are trying to sew any weight of veg tan you will have problems. If you have some canvas or light suede try sewing that and see if you get a stitch.

[luke213]

Yeah on the needle not being a chisel point that's apparently what you get when you tell them what you want and they are wrong;) That said I need to order some needles any suggestions on where to get them? Or just through Tippmann?

Needle seems to be all the way into the needle bad I wonder if it's the angle making it look weird maybe? The bobbin is oriented pretty much spot on with what your saying. I just tried some 4oz or so suede and no go with that either.

What should the tension on the bobbin be? Since I just got it new I know that bit in particular hasn't been used and is likely not set properly(and side question could that be at all related).

Thanks again for the suggestions;)

Luke

[Denster]

On the needles. Weaver has a little better price but not much might just as well get them from Tippmann. They darn near last forever anyway. As to bobbin tension about 1lb or a little less, by feel that is flows freely out with only a little felt tension. Top tension a good place to start is back both all the way off then just down till they touch and put two turns on the secondary and 1&1/2 on the primary. Then make adjustments on the primary till the stitch looks like you want. When you get it stitching that is. I'm at a loss for other ideas although Tom should be able to walk you right through it. If the needle picks up the bobbin thread with only light tension but sewing puts too much tension on it sounds like a spacing issue and the hook isn't passing close enough to the needle thats only an issue of a few thousandths. I'd take the shuttle out wipe it and the spacer ring down good reinstall and try again. Me I'm off to bed. Don't be too worried once you get it going you'll really like it. They are a bear and will darn near sew plywood. By the way for holsters I use 346 top and 277 bottom makes a nice plump stitch. 277 and 207 I use for belts. Plenty stroong enough for either just doesn't look as nice. When you find out what the problem is be sure and let me know.

[luke213]

That's a question for ya, on the 346 does that need a bigger needle and if so what one? I really prefer a thick stitch I'm used to handstitching and to be honest this 277 looks freaking tiny compared to what I normally use;)

I did some more fiddling and got no where I'm done for the night tomorrow is a fresh day.

Thanks again!

Luke

On the needles. Weaver has a little better price but not much might just as well get them from Tippmann. They darn near last forever anyway. As to bobbin tension about 1lb or a little less, by feel that is flows freely out with only a little felt tension. Top tension a good place to start is back both all the way off then just down till they touch and put two turns on the secondary and 1&1/2 on the primary. Then make adjustments on the primary till the stitch looks like you want. When you get it stitching that is. I'm at a loss for other ideas although Tom should be able to walk you right through it. If the needle picks up the bobbin thread with only light tension but sewing puts too much tension on it sounds like a spacing issue and the hook isn't passing close enough to the needle thats only an issue of a few thousandths. I'd take the shuttle out wipe it and the spacer ring down good reinstall and try again. Me I'm off to bed. Don't be too worried once you get it going you'll really like it. They are a bear and will darn near sew plywood. By the way for holsters I use 346 top and 277 bottom makes a nice plump stitch. 277 and 207 I use for belts. Plenty stroong enough for either just doesn't look as nice. When you find out what the problem is be sure and let me know.

[Denster]

Luke

The 346 uses a 230S needle.

[luke213]

Luke

The 346 uses a 230S needle.

Nothing concrete yet but today I got a very few very ugly stitches out of it. So I think I'm heading in the right direction. I lubed the bobbin track with some white lithium grease and did some other fiddling. I think one of the things holding me back right now is the lack of a proper presser foot. I held the material differently today when I got those couple out of it. So now it's the waiting game for the parts. I also need to remember to order some of that bigger thread and some of those 230s needles.

Now another dumb question on the thread and needle front. I keep seeing smalled diameter thread in the bobbin, why? I guess I don't understand if there is a reason for this or why it's done. If not can I just run the same size in both top and bottom? And if so can I run 346 in both? I guess I'm looking for a nice heavy stitch that is at least similar to what I see when I currently hand-stitch and this smaller thread just doesn't give me the confidence in this machine stitch that I think I would have with a thicker thread.

Sorry for all the simple questions I think I'm just lost because I know very very little about sewing machines in general so I'm reading everything I can find but I'm still quite a ways behind the curve here;)

Thanks again!

Luke

[Denster]

Luke

You can run 346 top and bottom. The only advantage to running one size smaller in the bobbin is you can use less upper tension and you have more bobbin thread to work with. The bottom stitch is a double thickness of thread that has to be pulled into the hole in the leather. With machine stitching the back will never look as nice as it does with saddle stitching, well with one exception being a needle and awl machine. Take a look at some of Particles posts in the holsters section. That is as good as it gets on the back. To get nice looking stitches you'll want the heavy thread and 4.5 to 5 stitches per inch. One thing I have found is that poly thread runs better through the Boss and Aerostitch than bonded nylon.

I just thought of one other thing. You do have your bobbin thread comming off in a counterclockwise direction don't you. That is the only way it will work right. Do you have a manual for the aerostitch? If not let me know I think I have a pdf of both the early and late models.

[luke213]

Luke

You can run 346 top and bottom. The only advantage to running one size smaller in the bobbin is you can use less upper tension and you have more bobbin thread to work with. The bottom stitch is a double thickness of thread that has to be pulled into the hole in the leather. With machine stitching the back will never look as nice as it does with saddle stitching, well with one exception being a needle and awl machine. Take a look at some of Particles posts in the holsters section. That is as good as it gets on the back. To get nice looking stitches you'll want the heavy thread and 4.5 to 5 stitches per inch. One thing I have found is that poly thread runs better through the Boss and Aerostitch than bonded nylon.

I just thought of one other thing. You do have your bobbin thread comming off in a counterclockwise direction don't you. That is the only way it will work right. Do you have a manual for the aerostitch? If not let me know I think I have a pdf of both the early and late models.

Thanks again, I do have the bobbin coming off the right direction. I do also have all the 4 manuals that Tippmann has listed but apparently my machine was one of the last ones produced and it doesn't actually have an accurate manual according to Tom. He sent me a hand drawn diagram as far as the pneumatics and how things had to be routed hose wise. It's very different than all the other versions, mine does not have the main gas block, it's got a different one attached to the bottom of the main piston. I also don't have the pneumatic thread tensioner on top, and I do have forward reverse function. No manual needle set, and no bobbin winder.

Actually here is a picture of it the day I got it, now it has all the bits that were missing installed but you can see it's a little different than the ones listed in the other manuals(oh and I was a little aggressive with the blur, my workbench was a real mess that day, well it is everyday but I didn't have anything as a backdrop:).

Thanks again!

Luke

[Denster]

Just one other thing Luke. The needle is passing through the center of the needle plate isn't it and is not touching the toes of your home made presser foot. Either can bump the needle a few thou out of alignment.

I see what you mean about the former owner robbing parts.

[luke213]

Just one other thing Luke. The needle is passing through the center of the needle plate isn't it and is not touching the toes of your home made presser foot. Either can bump the needle a few thou out of alignment.

I see what you mean about the former owner robbing parts.

It's clearing it, actually that's the problem it's clearing it by too much and allowing the material to jump rather than hold flat, so time for a real one, or another kydex one but I think I need to shelve the project and clear my head to get caught back up on this weeks holster backlog;)

Yep he sure did take allot off the machine, let's just say there are allot of new parts;) I certainly have spent more than I was hoping to on this project machine but in the same token I'm around $1000 right now, which isn't terrible for an Aerostitch from what I've seen in the used market, but if I have to spend much more I could have just bought used and saved the days of headaches we shall see.

That's the nature of DIY stuff though, sometimes you come out way ahead sometimes you're kicking yourself the whole time for not just picking it up without the fight;) I gotta admit though most times even though I don' t realize it while I'm fighting with the device, I do enjoy the challenge from time to time;)

Thanks again!

Luke

[shovelhead]

It's clearing it, actually that's the problem it's clearing it by too much and allowing the material to jump rather than hold flat, so time for a real one, or another kydex one but I think I need to shelve the project and clear my head to get caught back up on this weeks holster backlog;)

Yep he sure did take allot off the machine, let's just say there are allot of new parts;) I certainly have spent more than I was hoping to on this project machine but in the same token I'm around $1000 right now, which isn't terrible for an Aerostitch from what I've seen in the used market, but if I have to spend much more I could have just bought used and saved the days of headaches we shall see.

That's the nature of DIY stuff though, sometimes you come out way ahead sometimes you're kicking yourself the whole time for not just picking it up without the fight;) I gotta admit though most times even though I don' t realize it while I'm fighting with the device, I do enjoy the challenge from time to time;)

Thanks again!

Luke

Hi have an aero just some random thoughts.I think all my needles have a round shank with no flat spot I'm almost positive.Also what is your air supply pressure?Not sure what the min is but I dont think itll work with much under 65 or 70 lbs.Also there is a shim in the shuttle assembly -its round-and fits behind the shuttle itself and obviously affects the position of the hook it may be missing or be improper thickness.Sent mine in for service once after i first got it for inconsisitent rev. stitching and one of the things they changed was the dimension of this shim.IF someone fooled with the adjustments that trip the air valves this will throw the timing off and i cant tell you how to correct this-but others have sentmachine to tippmann and for small money they will set up might be worth it or maybe someone there will send you setup instructions on this ccant be that hard?One accessory to get from them and its cheap is a seperate regulator to adjust the foot pressureshould have come with this as standard.I suspect either shuttle alignment or the screws that determine when the needle starts its upstroke in relation to the shuttle.Should be possible to confirm by visual observation. Thats all I have Hit me up for anything I may be able to help with.

Regards Shovelhead

[luke213]

I appreciate the help:) One of the things Tom had suggested was placing a piece of cut out cardboard(just cereal box type) behind the shim in the shuttle to basically shim out it just a smidge and that seems to have helped some(did that today) and might be part of the reason I'm getting back to some function. I might just stop by Tippmann when we head home next month from Texas to Michigan since I have to go fairly close to that area anyhow, might try to set something up if I can't get this working before then. At least with that I might save having to ship this unit out:)

Oh and on air I'm running a fairly small compressor I think the 5 gallon or so model, seems to cycle fairly often but my pressures never really get below about 80-100ish, I've got it set to top out at around 110psi at the moment which according to Tom again shouldn't hurt anything. He seemed to think that 100 is actually about where they should run rather than the recommended 80 so I guess I will take his word for it;) I'm hoping that this new presser foot with solve the material moving and hopefully make some difference as well but we'll see.

Luke

[Denster]

Luke

Problem diagnosed. Didn't realize that the kydex foot was letting the material jump. That kills forming much of a loop and the hook will miss it a lot, also gives you a nasty looking stitch when it does catch it. Wait till your factory presser foot comes in and I'll bet your problems are gone. Speaking of presser feet it's handy to have the left zipper foot also. Cuts down on the marks when going around the weapon perifery on envelope style holsters. That presser foot adjustment valve that shovelhead mentioned is handy also and only about $30. You won't have many presser foot marks when sewing firmer leather like Hermann Oak but on the less firm leather like W&C and some of the imports it saves some time to lighten the pressure and cut down on the time spent casing and removing the marks.

If you're only into the machine for $1000 and almost home free you did good.

[luke213]

Luke

Problem diagnosed. Didn't realize that the kydex foot was letting the material jump. That kills forming much of a loop and the hook will miss it a lot, also gives you a nasty looking stitch when it does catch it. Wait till your factory presser foot comes in and I'll bet your problems are gone. Speaking of presser feet it's handy to have the left zipper foot also. Cuts down on the marks when going around the weapon perifery on envelope style holsters. That presser foot adjustment valve that shovelhead mentioned is handy also and only about $30. You won't have many presser foot marks when sewing firmer leather like Hermann Oak but on the less firm leather like W&C and some of the imports it saves some time to lighten the pressure and cut down on the time spent casing and removing the marks.

If you're only into the machine for $1000 and almost home free you did good.

Sweet that's what I'm hoping;) On the leather I use 100% Hermann Oak on everything so not too much for worries on the presser foot I don't think but I figure we'll see once I get it going. Once I started I used some imports and some leather from Tandy(no idea what it was) and I once I tried Hermann Oak I stopped even messing with the other stuff. I will say I'm curious on Wickett and Craig since I've heard it's not as hard as Hermann Oak and I can think of a few projects outside holsters that it might be interesting for but in holsters I really am very happy with my Hermann Oak.

Thanks again I'm hoping I'm getting close to the answer here;)

Luke

[Denster]

W&C is good leather but I know what you mean with Hermann Oak that's all I use for holsters anymore. Speaking of holsters I see you over on the concealed carry forum a lot also checked out your site. You make some pretty nice holsters.

[luke213]

W&C is good leather but I know what you mean with Hermann Oak that's all I use for holsters anymore. Speaking of holsters I see you over on the concealed carry forum a lot also checked out your site. You make some pretty nice holsters.

Thanks sir;) I'm around a couple of the difference concealed carry sites, Defensive carry some, WeTheArmed allot(I actually sponsor that one) and a few others. I've been lucky to have some really good guys who have loved the holsters I've built for them so the majority of my work has been word of mouth and it sure has been keeping me busy:) I'm hoping to save some time with the Aerostitch and get to the point where I get days off again:) We shall see though, for only really opening up orders for the last few months I'm actually surprised as how my customer base has grown. It's been keeping me busy and I love my job so I can't complain;) The guys out there carrying in my gear seem to like it as well since I've had quite a few guys order one, like it and come back and order a couple for other guns in their collection so it's been good. But like I said I think one of the best bits is the customers, I think this market, carry and guns brings out some of the best and most interesting people you could meet:)

I also love being able to provide gear that makes guys carry more often, I figure anything I can do to get more guys carrying every single day is a better world for all of us. That's my little feel good about what I do for a living now, my wife goes to work and fixes people(she's a nurse) and I just make sure people have the gun there when they really need it to protect good people;)

Take care!

Luke

[luke213]

Well I wanted to update everyone and ask a few more questions;)

I've gotten it working, lots of fiddling with tension and my needle bar(I think that's the proper name) was sticking. Either way I got that straight and got the new presser foot and now I'm stitching;)

Here is one of my test strips that I did to ask another question. I'm having some trouble on the start and finish bits. I've watched the Tippmann videos and it says to go over the first couple stitches and I can do that, looks fair to decent from the top(will get better I'm sure with time). But the back it not looking good.

How can I fix this back. Or more aptly how can I start and stop a stitch better to the point where it will look good. This IMHO isn't good enough at all:) That though is why I have 6 more weeks before I need to produce with this machine and plenty of scrap material to test on. I do appreciate all the help getting to this stage;)

One other question, when I spoke to Tom at Tippmann he informed me that he can't get the 230S needles anymore, anyone know somewhere else to get them?

Thanks again!

Luke

[Denster]

Luke

Weaver's has the Smetz 230S needles. On the stitching it's looking pretty good except for the start and stop points and the open holes. Couple of tricks. First do you have the needle positioning switch on your machine? I don't recall if you said or not. Anyway I rarely backstitch. I plan my stitch runs so that I oversew about four stitches on the periphery of the holster. When I absolutely have to I start two stitches in the opposite direction I want to go then raise the presser foot and turn the holster around position the needle in the first hole and off we go at the end I raise the presser foot and back up one stitch lower it put the machine in reverse and sew a couple. Comes out cleaner that way. Once I'm done stitching I lightly case both sides of the stitchline and put the front side on my marble slab and tap the back with my cobbler's hammer. This closes the stitch holes and gets rid of any marks. John Bianchi uses a smooth metal roller to do the same either works.

[luke213]

Luke

Weaver's has the Smetz 230S needles. On the stitching it's looking pretty good except for the start and stop points and the open holes. Couple of tricks. First do you have the needle positioning switch on your machine? I don't recall if you said or not. Anyway I rarely backstitch. I plan my stitch runs so that I oversew about four stitches on the periphery of the holster. When I absolutely have to I start two stitches in the opposite direction I want to go then raise the presser foot and turn the holster around position the needle in the first hole and off we go at the end I raise the presser foot and back up one stitch lower it put the machine in reverse and sew a couple. Comes out cleaner that way. Once I'm done stitching I lightly case both sides of the stitchline and put the front side on my marble slab and tap the back with my cobbler's hammer. This closes the stitch holes and gets rid of any marks. John Bianchi uses a smooth metal roller to do the same either works.

Good info all around thanks;)

When you say oversew are you saying that you run back over your start point. Say making a square or circle, coming back to where your first stitches are and running over 3-4 of them to lock the end? I assume that's what your saying, I had tried that with better results also I'm just thinking on my normal popular rig the Texas holster I've got stop points where the clips are on either side of the rig, for the rest of it I can over-run but in two places I'm going to have to figure out a start like this;)

One other rather odd question, lockstitch and it's strength vs. handstitch. I know hand stitch is stronger but what about laying two lockstitches in every hole, it seems to me that would be as good or better than running a double stitch where they are separate. I'm just kinda brainstorming here but I've been trying to think of a way to make the lockstitch even stronger.

Thanks again!

Luke