Saddlemaking- Opinions on Instruction

[Ron]

I have been surfing the net for information on saddle making schools and instructional books on making saddles. I would appreciate your thoughts on this subject for someone who has no prior experience. Thanks , Ron

[bruce johnson]

Ron,

Good question. Prior to cyber meltdown last week, we had a pretty thorough section of lively discussion on books, videos, and other resources. It will be back. In my short list in no particular order. The Stohlman series of books are good and thorough. You need them all, if for no other reason than a wide knowledge base to build on. Those books are not the end all, and Al Stohlman was A saddlemaker, not THE saddlemaker. Saddle Makers Shop Manual is my go-to printed resource. Lot of variations, but assumes a working knowledge. Videos - Jeremiah Watt series is necessary to me. About as complete as it gets. Bill Gomer has one a little more abbreviated, but good points and a few tricks. Dale Harwood has a good one too. You couldn't build one from Dale's, but once you have built a few, your next one will be a lot better after watching this one.

As far as schools ????? I think you could learn how to build a saddle just like the guy you learn from teaches. The more background you have going in, the more you will learn what you don't know.

Philosophy now. I think a saddlemaker has to have a definite and personal experience with the type of purpose you are building a saddle for. You have to know the "whys" first before you can do the "hows". Seat shape is critical for optimum performance, which is not always the same as rider comfort. Stirrup swing, rigging types and advantages of different styles all play into the mechanics of the top side. Fit, rigging style and position play into the bottom side.

The good news, there are probably more instructional opportunities now than ever before building saddles. Everything from books, videos, schools of different lengths, classes at several leather trade shows now, and saddlemakers talking. You are in a good place right here.

[Ron]

Ron,

Good question. Prior to cyber meltdown last week, we had a pretty thorough section of lively discussion on books, videos, and other resources. It will be back. In my short list in no particular order. The Stohlman series of books are good and thorough. You need them all, if for no other reason than a wide knowledge base to build on. Those books are not the end all, and Al Stohlman was A saddlemaker, not THE saddlemaker. Saddle Makers Shop Manual is my go-to printed resource. Lot of variations, but assumes a working knowledge. Videos - Jeremiah Watt series is necessary to me. About as complete as it gets. Bill Gomer has one a little more abbreviated, but good points and a few tricks. Dale Harwood has a good one too. You couldn't build one from Dale's, but once you have built a few, your next one will be a lot better after watching this one.

As far as schools ????? I think you could learn how to build a saddle just like the guy you learn from teaches. The more background you have going in, the more you will learn what you don't know.

Philosophy now. I think a saddlemaker has to have a definite and personal experience with the type of purpose you are building a saddle for. You have to know the "whys" first before you can do the "hows". Seat shape is critical for optimum performance, which is not always the same as rider comfort. Stirrup swing, rigging types and advantages of different styles all play into the mechanics of the top side. Fit, rigging style and position play into the bottom side.

The good news, there are probably more instructional opportunities now than ever before building saddles. Everything from books, videos, schools of different lengths, classes at several leather trade shows now, and saddlemakers talking. You are in a good place right here.

Thanks for the reply Bruce . I think I'll pick up the Al Stohlmans series . Sounds like a good place to start. By the way would you know a good source for these books? Ron

[gtwister09]

Ron,

Not Bruce but Tandy Leather Factory is about as good as it gets unless you can spot a set on eBay a little cheaper. Harry's daughter is selling his manual now for somewhere around $80-90. I would really agree with Bruce on Jeremiah's videos. I have all of the ones that Bruce has mentioned as well as some by Cheaney, Gomer and Adal/Conway and agree with his comments wholeheartedly about the videos he mentioned.

Regards,

Ben

[YRsaddles]

I would also agree with Bruce..Al Stolmans books give you a good deal of knowledge. and if you have a fair amount of experience with the tools then making a decent well fitting first saddle is well within anyones grasp. Just know that the AL does things in the book aren't always the easiest way to do it. Jerimah's videos are good too..and I actually like his tooling layout video too. Though I don't want to be KNOWN for hand tooling..I'm always trying to improve. But learned most of what I know by apprenticing in a saddle shop.

Edited January 12, 2008 by YRsaddles

[gtwister09]

Though I don't want to be KNOWN for hand tooling..I'm always trying to improve. But learned most of what I know by apprenticing in a saddle shop.

Interesting comment given the story about the knife case that Jim L. made (in another thread) especially in light of the functionality and stitching.

Regards,

Ben

[David Genadek]

Ron,

It depends on what your goals are. If you just want to do a saddle to say you did one then Dusty Johnson's work would be geared toward you. If you want to become a master saddle maker then that is a different journey all together. I spent ten years roaming around the country working for and with differant people. If your looking at really finding your own way then I think working with many people is essential. Gomer's school is a great place to start because Bill has a pretty broad perspective meaning he knows many methods of saddle construction from both the custom and production side of things. Which set of tapes and books I say get them all as you can. There is no: Here is how you make a saddle. Where do you want to go with it?

"Philosophy now. I think a saddlemaker has to have a definite and personal experience with the type of purpose you are building a saddle for. You have to know the "whys" first before you can do the "hows". Bruce Johnson AMEN

David Genadek

[gtwister09]

Ron,

Philosphy comments are dead on. It is a lot different from the working end of the saddle or any other career. I presently work as an Independent Executive Consultant in Information Technology. I have seen so many people who are certified in databases, operating systems and networks yet they can't put that learning to work to correct problems and design. Not all of them mind you but enough to know that the certifications are no guarantee for fitness. They understand the hows just not the whys. If you understand both the how and why then you can also evaluate new techniques as well.

With that being said, I am a firm believer in a library. I read once that, "A person is only as good as his library." There is considerable truth to that statement assuming that the books and videos are used, read and watched. This is especially true for saddle makers because there was limited ones available. However there have been more and more books and videos available over the years. The same holds true in the engraving, machining and woodworking worlds as well.

You must study in order to improve. Some do it like Dave did by moving around and working under some of the greats. Others have to glean through other methods like books, videos and other methods including discussions like these.

Start a library and add to it constantly. Unfortunately many of the books and videos associated with saddlemaking are expensive. Good work is rare and it takes a lot of time, effort, photographs and such (don't forget $$$$) to publish either books or video. However remember that not all books or videos represent high quality or good work. One such saddlemaking one that comes to mind is Lee Rice's information on "How to Make a Western Saddle". You will learn to discriminate between what is good and what is not, Try to incorporate some of what you see into your own work. This is the best way to grow. On another note concerning a good library... it can supply you with an endless source of inspiration as well as a means of researching style.

I have the luxury at this time of being able to purchase a library for some of my passions in woodworking, saddlemaking/leatherworking and engraving/bits and spurs. It is also a double-edged sword on the other side in that it limits my time in being able to constantly pursue these passions. I started gathering saddlemaking books almost 30 years ago and haven't stopped yet. (as far as saddlemaking I have almost all of the books out there except for Beck's and I have almost all the videos from well know people like Harwood, Gomer and Watt to less published ones like Harry King).

In fact the last few years have created a lot more information with videos and books as well as the internet. Once you identify an area of interest then utilize the power of the internet to gather information on that subject with search engines like google, wikia and others. I capture pages and photos from people's web sites using Adobe Acrobat but any PDF creator can do that. Don't overlook the power of forums like this one either. There are ones for bits and spurs, knives, metalworking, computer controlled machining, welding, shoe making and list can go on and on. Utilize them because you can glean a lot of valuable information that is close to being priceless. Save the information and store it away in order that you can utilize it later.

This is not to say that the wealth of knowledge that you can gain from actual work with a saddlemaker wouldn't be GREAT. It would have been wonderful to work alongside some of them. I know from talking and developing friendships with some of them that they were a wealth of knowledge just in talking through a project and listening to them. It is just that many of us are unable to do that.

Regards,

Ben

[JRedding]

Ron, I have to agree and disagree about all the books and videos, any study material is good for something, you'll learn from something from each one,but I've seen guys who buy them all and try to apply everything to the point it's just confusing. The only caution I'd give about books and videos is once you've done the research and studied all the methods you can to get from point A to point B on a saddle box those things up, take what you've learned and learn to build your saddle. Using them for reference is fine but leaving them lay open on your bench everytime you work is like showing up on the job carrying your eigth grade math book just in case there's something in there you might need. My point is usually we go to school, study, and at some point the books have done you all the good they're going to and it's time to go to work and learn the rest. I've seen so many guys eager to learn the last ten years turn those things into a crutch ten years later they've learned alright and they're building a saddle that is such a carbon copy if Jeramiah saw it he'd likely offer a job. If a man's going to all this work to learn to build a saddle you might as well be building your saddle when you're done as a clone of someone elses who sold you a book or a video.

[gtwister09]

That's right in line with my comment....

(I have seen so many people who are certified in databases, operating systems and networks yet they can't put that learning to work to correct problems and design. Not all of them mind you but enough to know that the certifications are no guarantee for fitness.)

Just because they were trained and certified these weren't any guarantee that they could put the information to use or practice it.

You have to apply and develop your own style. These are just the foundational steps. My first saddle I took pieces of information from Hooper, Jones and Yates to build the first one. I mainly used Hooper but I used Jones because he was the one who had a leather ground seat and that was what I wanted to use at the time. Just a case in point for developing your own style and methods.

In business process reengineering they call this methodology a couple of things (1) information reuse or (2) benchmarking - another term for stealing shamelessly.

Regards,

Ben

[David Genadek]

I think it is high time this industry steels concepts and terms from other industries and applies them with the foundational knowledge of the craft.

David Genadek

[Ron]

I appreciate all the thought put into these relies. The insight and the information will be very helpful. Thanks again, Ron

[gtwister09]

I think it is high time this industry steels concepts and terms from other industries and applies them with the foundational knowledge of the craft.

David Genadek

Amen to that David. Something that is near and dear to my heart. Using the many industries and careers to further another. Leading people or an industry through change is always difficult even though change is inevitable.

Regards,

Ben

[YRsaddles]

What I meant by the comment about not wanting to be known as a hand tooler...I that I would rather to be known a a saddle maker than a hand tooler..make sense? I'm a fairly good hand tooler, but its just decoration. With all the pieces of junk they sale in tack stores. I'd rather folks come to me for saddle that fits and is made right..than have folks come buy art. and I think you got me confused with another Dave

Dave

Edited January 13, 2008 by YRsaddles

[Chuck]

I have been surfing the net for information on saddle making schools and instructional books on making saddles. I would appreciate your thoughts on this subject for someone who has no prior experience. Thanks , Ron

After reading all the replies and being a self taught nut I think a good way to learn is find an older hand built saddle that is in need of repair and tear it down to the tree. I did this when I started 20 years ago and learned a lot from it. When you get tore down build it back the way it was. In the mean time build your library, because now you will be able to know a lot more abut what it is the book or saddle builder is trying to tell you. Just another idea. Chuck

[gtwister09]

What I meant by the comment about not wanting to be known as a hand tooler...I that I would rather to be known a a saddle maker than a hand tooler..make sense? I'm a fairly good hand tooler, but its just decoration. With all the pieces of junk they sale in tack stores. I'd rather folks come to me for saddle that fits and is made right..than have folks come buy art. and I think you got me confused with another Dave

Dave

Got it exactly. You want to be known for the function (i.e. great fit and made well - not just for nice tooling). The point that I was trying to make about Jim L's knife was the the carving was extremely nice but the stitching wasn't up to the same standard and the knife fell out of the sheath too easily. In this case a portion of the art form - carving was great but the function was less than desirable.

Likewise don't have you confused with another Dave.

Regards,

Ben

[YRsaddles]

sorry Ben, I must have misunderstood your post. I went back and looked at that knife sheath thread. some one also named Dave was talking about Jim's work and I thought you might have confused him with me when you posted that thread the day...sorry about the confusion..my fault

Dave

[ryan]

I have all the Stohlman books and Bill Gomers Video. I guess I have Dusty Johnson's book on saddle making too. I was planning on getting Cheaney's roping saddle video next but was suprised to see few people referring to it on this thread. I am interested in Watt's video series too but isn't it geared more towards wades? Also, I have almost finished my first saddle; nothing fancy just a border tooled roper, I have a solid knowledge of saddle construction and have rebuilt quite a few now. Would I benefit from Harwoods video? I would anticipate most of my orders being ropers and pleasure saddles up here, although I really want to make a wade eventually!!

Thanks in advance

[paris3200]

No one has recommend going to a saddle maker or school for instruction. Would it not be better for a beginner to get some solid instruction instead of trying to work their way through books and videos?

Jason

[bruce johnson]

Ryan,

The Cheaney videos are good. Especially basic about tools and equipment needed. They are a bit redundant from one to the next, but you could take any one set and get most of the basics. Jeremiah's are geared toward making a Wade, as is Bill Gomer's, and Dale Harwood's. So are several of the books. The basics are still there. The only thing they don't show is doing welted fork covers. Everything else pretty much transfers directly over. The post horns also give you some options for covering horns that a metal horn doesn't. Jeremiah's set tells you a lot of the "whys" the others don't. Harry Adams' book takes you through building a Wade, and drawing up your cutting patters based on the tree and not cookie cutter shapes. The second section covers a lot of variations like welted swells, different riggings, horn coverings, etc.

Jason,

There are a lot of schools for sure. I would agree that personal instruction is the way to fly too. I think that the OP related that they had little background. I think you need to have some "book knowledge" before going in. I also think you need some background in using a saddle too. That will give you a foundation for what is being explained and demonstrated. Everybody does it differently. You have to pick and choose what works for you from everybody. Kind of like learning surgery, you don't pick up a scalpel and go to cutting. Likewise you don't read and look at videos and they turn you loose on the public. With a bit of a knowledge base, and then practical instruction and supervision, things go better.

One thing for sure is I wouldn't go into a school and say "That's not how _____ ________ did it in the video or book". You are there to learn another way of skinning the cat. When you get home, try new methods, and then pick what works for you.

[gtwister09]

sorry Ben, I must have misunderstood your post. I went back and looked at that knife sheath thread. some one also named Dave was talking about Jim's work and I thought you might have confused him with me when you posted that thread the day...sorry about the confusion..my fault

Dave

**** 3 in one answer ****

Dave,

No one's fault! I assumed that I had not properly conveyed what I was trying to say (typical of email and forums). I was just trying to make a correlation about art and function. Ideally the function would be perfect and the art portion would be be icing on the cake... IMHO.

=============================

Jason,

I would have loved to have been able to go to some sort of saddle school but that wasn't in the cards. Likewise I am a DIY kind of person. Maybe one of the reasons that I pursue a library is so that I can gather many different techniques/methods and then apply the best possible one for the job or function. In fact we can also utilize methods that are used in English and Aussie saddles if we understand the why of that function/technique/method. However, I would have to say that ideally you would need some foundational information before going to a saddle school to make you a lot more effective. Not an absolute but I believe you would get so much more from it if you had some saddle knowledge (experience/time in a saddle or information gleaned from books/videos).

With that being said there is a "gotcha" by only going to one school. You don't have those other means/methods of creating something different than the way it was done at school at your disposal. There are almost always other ways to do things. In fact most of the older saddlemakers would go from shop to shop gleaning information as they apprenticed. I know that Dave G. mentioned that in some of his threads that he "made the rounds". I have also heard it from people like Bob Dellis, Billy Wootres and others. This can surely be overcome by following their method of apprenticeship or by studying others work in the form of books/videos. Follow their example and gather multiple methods and then create your own style of work.

I personally don't have any experience with any of the schools so I cannot comment on them.

==============================

Ryan,

No Wades will knock a bunch of books/videos out like Jeremiah's, Dales, Bill's and Harry's book. Now I have to say that you can still get some very valuable information from them on the why something is done that way .

Bruce Cheaney has three videos (roping, cutting and buckaroo). They are good. They cover the basic tools and equipment needed. You will be surprised to see his drawdown stand...a LEGO contraption at best. It is a conglomeration of pipe, nipples and other fittings. He uses his pocket knife A BUNCH! If you were considering Bruce and looking at building ropers, then I would just start off with that one. I will have to warn you that his tapes are about 93-98% the same from tape to tape.

Regards,

Ben

[David Genadek]

If your serouse about learning you have to do it all. Books Tapes, Schools, classes, hanging out with people.

David Genadek

[gtwister09]

If your serouse about learning you have to do it all. Books Tapes, Schools, classes, hanging out with people.

David Genadek

Sage advice. Get it all! Benchmark everywhere.

Regards,

Ben

[paris3200]

If your serious about learning you have to do it all. Books Tapes, Schools, classes, hanging out with people.

David Genadek

Well it appears books and tapes have been covered pretty throughly. Does anyone have an opinions or reviews of any classes or schools?

Jason

[rgerbitz]

In regards to schools/classes there seem to be alot of options. Assuming that a person has spent some time in a saddle and has invested in and studied a personal library, what school/classes might be best in everyone opinions. There are everything from weekend schools to 2 and 3 months courses. What is to little and what is to much. For some people who are trying to put food on the table and learn a new craft taking a couple of weeks off, or more, can be hard to stomach. Wouldn't be bad if you knew that the time spent away from work, family, etc... would be well spent. I not asking anyone to bash any schools but if there is anyone that has some experiance with any of the schools out there, a couple of use are eagerly waiting to hear about them.

Thank you all for your time,

Rob Gerbitz

"Don't make a big deal out of something you don't want to be a big deal"