Advice On Lasting Boots

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Nick,

Whew! I'm afraid I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the length of our posts. We've got to do shorter ones, I'm startin' to get lost.

Yeah we can keep our posts to shorter length, might be good to keep things more concise anyway

Pattern Cutting-Step by Step Patterns for Footwear, edited by Frank Jones, (I mentioned in your other thread about Sheep Hunters boots)

Also I highly recommend Tim Skrym's book Bespoke Shoemaking, both are available here:

http://www.shoemakingbook.com/

(We're all together in this , you know)

Two steps ahead of you on this one already there, Paul. I attempted to purchase the book, but paypal won't let me choose a shipping destination outside of the U.S. I have contacted Tim to try to find a solution to this problem, and I am currently awaiting his reply. On a side note, I have downloaded all available volumes of the Golding texts on shoe and boot making from the HCC library and am currently reading through vol.1. I decided to attempt to make formes based on Soule's system as outlined in vol.1 of the texts. I am mulling the leather I cut out based on those standards now and they are awaiting to be lasted to see what I come up with. I have high hopes for these as they produced fairly good looking results for this test, and if they work out then that means I have learned something valuable that I can run with. I will post pictures once it's done.

You've demonstrated a skill at thinking things through, I'm really very impressed. But if you want to be successful in this effort, I believe you must follow the path of those who have gone before.

I'll be of little help if you want to create a whole new way.

(I don't know how much more help I can be, as it it is. But I am willing to help if you're will to get these text books.)

I understand what you're saying here. While studying drawing and painting people said the same thing, so the point is well taken. Regarding the text books, the above paragraph explains my position with all that right now.

I would not have a thing to say about your own ideas about stitching the inseam like you're thinking. I can only imagine problems.

Many many shoes and boots, have been being made by hand by many many different people for many many years.

What works is what works. Learn the fundamental ways to do it, and then, after totally understanding how, then you can begin to "play in the field of possibilities".

Nothing really to add to what you're saying here. I can well imagine that people have had the same ideas I've presented here, but for some reason or another didn't run with it. Fundamentals are required to be successful in any endeavor, but experimentation is also important. I guess I will ultimately need to strike a balance between my desire to experiment, and keeping in with what has been proven to work. Also, any help that you can give it help well appreciated and I'm sure you can be of more help than you think (or at least more than modesty will let you state )

We'll keep it going. This is being good for me too.

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

I'm glad to read your response to my comments and advise. I've only begun to be confident enough of what I may know, to express my opinion in just the last couple of years.

I've still got bruises to show for some of my lessons, but like you I try to think things through.

I've spent time skimming Golding, but haven't really digested any of it. But I will be glad to do so when the time is right to anwser questions for you in the future,

but I can't say how much value I'll be on some of the patterning stuff, as I am a western boot maker primarily.

You've got a great learning attitude, and I'm very proud to have made your aquaintance.

I've got a couple of pair of boots on the bench right now. And the insoles are about due for sculpting.

I'll take pictures and post the process soon.

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Nick,

I'm glad to read your response to my comments and advise. I've only begun to be confident enough of what I may know, to express my opinion in just the last couple of years.

I've still got bruises to show for some of my lessons, but like you I try to think things through.

I am glad to receive the advice. It is not common that experienced people will sit down and take time from their days to share what they can, so whatever you have to offer is appreciated. As for the issue about confidence, I can understand that well enough. I remember the feeling when I started doling out critiques of other artists sketches and building up confidence in doing so gradually.

I've spent time skimming Golding, but haven't really digested any of it. But I will be glad to do so when the time is right to anwser questions for you in the future,

but I can't say how much value I'll be on some of the patterning stuff, as I am a western boot maker primarily.

Western boots, European boots, Combat boots, whatever the style of boot is they all require patterns and standards, so I can't imagine that just because she design is different that means that the method of making the formes/patterns is terribly different. It seems that the method for creating the patterns are fundamentally the same, except that certain allowances need to be considered depending on the shape of the last. These are of course just observations of mine, and could be wrong.

You've got a great learning attitude, and I'm very proud to have made your aquaintance.

I've got a couple of pair of boots on the bench right now. And the insoles are about due for sculpting.

I'll take pictures and post the process soon.

Looking forward to seeing those pictures! Here are a few photos of my own.

The insole I used was the first of my two holdfast test sculpts so the spacing is a not right, the more recent insoles have more evenly spaced holes set closer together like we talked about before. I am actually wearing this test shoe as I type this, and in wearing it I am very glad I decided to make a fitters model. It seems that the spacers that the last maker put in to make it fit my food have made the last too long, which is making the whole thing fit wrong!

While holing the vamp i holed my thumb at the same time. It has also been a pleasure making your acquaintance

[Leatherimages]

I tried to reply to this yesterday, but it got lost in cyberspace I quit in frustration.

Patterning cowboy boots is really only done on the tops, and it relates primarily to the throat, or entry into the boot.

Patternmaking for shoes, has way more going on, and I've done enough to see that, once again, there is more to it than meets the eye.

It looks like your inseam is the approach you were describing earlier. And I guess it would work for a cemented constuction sole attachment.

My first thought is that the sheer factor and torque from walking would be hard on the holdfast, but I'm just looking at it critically.

Devilin or Thornton, I don't recall which of them, wrote on the subject of the angle of the inseam stitch in relation to the roll of the foot along the length of the insole,

and the manner the stitches should be set to reduce the stress on each stitch so as not to put too much sheer on the holdfast.

I think I'll be working on my two pair of insoles this weekend, and I'll address that when I post pics.

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I tried to reply to this yesterday, but it got lost in cyberspace I quit in frustration.

I understand, it happens in these forums sometimes. No worries.

Patterning cowboy boots is really only done on the tops, and it relates primarily to the throat, or entry into the boot.

Patternmaking for shoes, has way more going on, and I've done enough to see that, once again, there is more to it than meets the eye.

Again, I get what you're saying. With any endeavor there is more than what is seen at a glance. Wouldn't the process of making formes the same regardless of what kind of boot you make, although the construction of the boot and whatnot may vary? Regardless it seems that steps taken to makes forms for a brogue or a balmoral ought to be the same as for a western cowboy boot or a loafer. This is again just observation at work, and I have little experience with forme making yet. I did get the stuff worked out with Tim to order the Pattern Making book by Frank Jones as you suggested, should be here this week. Once I have that in hand much will be revealed I'm sure.

It looks like your inseam is the approach you were describing earlier. And I guess it would work for a cemented construction sole attachment.

My first thought is that the sheer factor and torque from walking would be hard on the holdfast, but I'm just looking at it critically.

The seam isn't exactly what I described above, since it is still only stitched on the outside of the holdfast. I just didn't trim down the vamp to be flush with the holdfast. Also since this was simple testing what I learned about forme making and turning them into standards and whatnot I i didn't want to waste leather by cutting out a welt and welting this tester. Turns out that the last that was made for me was too big with the spacers they put between the forepart and the (rearpart?) so I took out the spacer and put in a much thinner one according to the measurements I took (very rough, just the width of my finger which was exactly hwo much too long the last was with their spacer). Now that I have a much clearer idea about pattern making and whatnot I am starting to flesh out a design mentally and on paper before doing anymore cutting,and I also wanted to wait for the book to arrive before taking these boots and further. I am hoping to get them done by december though. A cold snap has just hit Beijing and this is undoubtedly ushering the winds down from siberia and all that that entails (and my current boots that I ordered online are starting to fall apart).

Devilin or Thornton, I don't recall which of them, wrote on the subject of the angle of the inseam stitch in relation to the roll of the foot along the length of the insole,

and the manner the stitches should be set to reduce the stress on each stitch so as not to put too much sheer on the holdfast.

This sounds like a valuable bit of information and I will look into this as I move along. Speaking of which I looked into crinch nails but couldn't find any here, so I just got a bunch of long thin nails and clipped the heads off and bent them into U shapes, do you think this would be sufficient?

I think I'll be working on my two pair of insoles this weekend, and I'll address that when I post pics.

I'm looking forward to these, thanks.

[Leatherimages]

I'm glad to hear you have the books comeing. I'll need to get mine out if you start having questions.

But Tim, and Frank are accessable.

I get it about the inseam, just practice. Up to that point. That's cool.

However, there is a very valid time to close the vamp by stitches to the insole without a hold fast.

I've attached a picture of what I do regularly that's like this.

On a fully pegged boot of 150 years ago, the vamp was whipped closed all around, and not just as I have it in the shank area. Then the sole was glued on and pegged all around.

This is also how I have done cement construction soles.

Bummer about the last. It is the hardest part, to me, getting that right. It's where the real skill is.

Talk about more to it than meets the eye!

I'm not sure what you're refering to about crinch nails. Sounds like a staple?

There are clinch nails, but one wouldn't make a staple with it. Tell me more.

Insole presentaion is on it's way. Soon.

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Sorry to reply late here. The image you gave me here was informative, and gave me a lot of ideas about how to go about taking care of the vamp/counter cover around the heel of my boots. I have received the book from Tim, and am reading through it now. I expect to have a fair understanding of how to go about with the next steps of making the forms and what standards so I can get to work on the leather.

Looking forward to the rest of the images you are putting together.

[Leatherimages]

Nick, My Insole Presentation is over in the Show Off section.

Check it out and let me know what you think.

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Paul,

I just wanted to pop in and leave a message to let you know I　ｈａｖｅn't vanished. I read the pattern making book almost cover to cover, and have a clear plan of action now. I am at the moment working on a handbag as a birthday present, which is nearing completion now and will get back to work on my boots.

Nick

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Getting work underway on my boots. I have used the tape method of forme making, and cut out the forms and made a standard from them on heavy drawing paper. Before I do anything regarding that though I am trying different designs out on paper using the formes i cut, just tracing their shape onto sheets of paper and looking at different styles.

I am thinking of going with a galosh style balmoral, since the construction would be comparatively easier than other styles because of the fewer number of seams and the straightforward construction of the shaft. I am thinking of adding elements of a monk shoe though in the form of buckle flaps that would go over the lacing.

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

I'm glad you're making some progress with the pattern making.

What a great excersize to be tracing the shapes to get a feel for things.

And I acknowledge your choice in the golash balmoral. Good luck with that.

I've been doing too many things at once, but am right now in a process of being videographed while boot making.

My neighbor is doing this to pass some time. It's a pinch on my schedule, but a great opportunity. I don't know what he'll want to do with it.

Happy Thanksgiving.

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Paul,

I'm glad you're making some progress with the pattern making.

What a great excersize to be tracing the shapes to get a feel for things.

I thought it would be better to trace out designs on paper traces of the formes both to decide what look I want before proceeding with the rest of the construction but also to be able to keep a record of design potential for future projects. We can both learn a lot from my decision to do a balmoral boot since you also mentioned wanting to try your hand at making a pair of balmorals.

I've been doing too many things at once, but am right now in a process of being videographed while boot making.

My neighbor is doing this to pass some time. It's a pinch on my schedule, but a great opportunity. I don't know what he'll want to do with it.

Perhaps you could get a copy of the video in the right format and post it to the HCC?

I have finished the bag I was working on, just a very simple messenger style satchel. I will post some pictures of it later on.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Thanks Paul! Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!

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Paul,

I have been working on these boots. I have made standards and whatnot and have cut out all the piece, and begun stitching on them.

Work is progressing a bit slowly at the moment, I picked up some commission design work for a financial company here, and they're keeping me busy at the moment in addition to my normal job but it's getting done.

Attached are a few photos of my spread of leather cut-outs.

The vamps are galosh style, with brogue style toe caps. I also made a set of patterns/standards for a brogue shoe.

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Here is an update on my boots. I have mostly stitched together one boot, minus the backstrap, closing the quarters and one of the facings. I am also having a bit of trouble deciding how to make the lining. I am thinking two halves, a forepart and counter/quarter sewn together in the middle and doing making a pocket for the counter stiffener and closing at the top with something like a bead made of softer brown leather.

Here are progress photos

[Leatherimages]

Hey, it's starting to look like a boot! Great!

The hand stitching gives it an interesting look, but the holes will let dust in very easy.

I'd say if you're think a two piece liner, you should go that way.

Maybe stitch inverted seam with "right sides together".

What were you thinking for a tongue?

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Hey Paul, thanks for the compliments!

The stitch holes that are visible are actually only exterior holes. Since all of them are seams I only punched holes with the puncher on the outer layers of leather. The portions of the seams that are not visible (the under layers) are punched with a waxed awl to help keep out water and dust. Not perfect of course, but ought to help. Additionally I am going over all the seams on the inside with a sealant like silicon caulking or something along those lines.

As for the liner I'm not exactly sure what is meant by an inverted seam, but I think I have an idea. Would you care to explain it for me though, just to be sure?

As for the tongue I am thinking about a simple full-bellows tongue. Comfortable, and better water-proofing/wind-proofing.

[Leatherimages]

I like the idea of a sealant behind the holes. A band of 1 1/2 to 2 ounce leather, skived along the edges, and glued in place would work also.

An inverted seam involves a seam allowance (say about 5mm) skived and stitched right sides together.

Spread the seam allowance, glue it down, and press flat.

A bellows tongue is a good idea, but challenging. I've done a few.

But you sure aren't afraid of challenges. Good on you.

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I like the idea of a sealant behind the holes. A band of 1 1/2 to 2 ounce leather, skived along the edges, and glued in place would work also.

I have used the silicon method that I mentioned before to back the stitching. I though hard about adding a strip of lining leather to help back it, but I decided against it because when I put it on the last the band was visible on the surface, but I think I will figure out a solution to this in my next pair.

An inverted seam involves a seam allowance (say about 5mm) skived and stitched right sides together.

Spread the seam allowance, glue it down, and press flat.

I did the lining up how I mentioned before, but I think I misunderstood the concept of an inverted seam. However I think that the lining turned out alright.

A bellows tongue is a good idea, but challenging. I've done a few.

I think I more or less got the bellows tongue down here, but i didn't measure it perfectly, so the shape ended up a tad strange, and too wide at the top. A challenge they are indeed, but one that I fully intend to tackle again on my next pair.

But you sure aren't afraid of challenges. Good on you.

Can't grow without challenges and tribulations, right?

On a side note, I am a little bit frustrated with the pattern makers book I ordered. It is a SUPERBLY HELPFUL read, to be sure, but it's advice on a 15mm lasting allowance ended up being a bad call. It is entirely possible that I measured the vamps wrong when I was making my patterns, but with a 15mm last allowance skived to a feather as suggested in multiple pdfs I have read my lasting pliers took a bite out of a few spots around the lasting allowance. Luckily each piece torn off the vamp was no more than 5-7mm each, and could still be worked around to get the thing lasted, but I have concerns for their durability once the welt is in place and the insole stitched. Will need to think of a workaround for this problem.

As a result of the last allowance problem the whole upper went on slightly skewed and wrinkled a bit. I am hoping to work out these wrinkles when I give it a second lasting after adding the stiffeners and adjusting the liner, which bunched up around the top of the quarters a little bit. Pictures though are, as they say, worth a thousand words.

Also an important question. Should the welt be made from upper leather? or sole leather?

If my thinking is right it ought to be sole leather, but I'm not totally sure.

Edited December 17, 2010 by sepulverture

[Leatherimages]

You've done a good job. This is coming together real well. Good on you!

I'm one for more lasting allowance than 15mm. Sometimes it's way more than necessary. It's better to throw a bigger scrap in the bin, than wish and regret.

I don't think there's any reason to skive your lasting allowance. Did I read that right?

As to welt, you want veg tan for that. I actually prefer horsehide for it's tighter fiber. Sole leather is bettern than necessary, but that would deffinitly be better than upper leather.

All in all, you're doing a great job on this first pair. It looks to be sitting on the last well.

Are you using a leather toe box? That's the next challenge.

Keep up the good work.

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You've done a good job. This is coming together real well. Good on you!

I'm one for more lasting allowance than 15mm. Sometimes it's way more than necessary. It's better to throw a bigger scrap in the bin, than wish and regret.

I don't think there's any reason to skive your lasting allowance. Did I read that right?

As to welt, you want veg tan for that. I actually prefer horsehide for it's tighter fiber. Sole leather is bettern than necessary, but that would deffinitly be better than upper leather.

All in all, you're doing a great job on this first pair. It looks to be sitting on the last well.

Are you using a leather toe box? That's the next challenge.

Keep up the good work.

All of the test lasts I did used lasting allowances at least twice as long. Lesson learned for future endeavors.

I think the book mentioned a 15 mm lasting allowance for economy when doing pattern designing for factories and the like, not sure though.

Unfortunately about the types of tanning for leathers here chrome tan is pretty much the norm, with veg tan not being so widely available. The toe box will indeed be leather. I have already figured out what I will do I think. I am also wondering if having a welt made of heavier or stronger leather will help with the last allowance being damaged in some areas. I also figured out a potential solution to the potential for the holdfast to tear with use. I figure I can put a layer of pig skin over the whole insole but not overlapping the welt on the underside, and then stab holes in it that coincide with the holdfast, that way there will be an extra layer of stronger leather between the stitches and the holdfast, hopefully improving wear.

Since it has a second layer of upper leather in the form of the 'brogue' toe cap I think it would already be able to hold it's shape fairly well, but aware that it's still going to be soft I planned to skive down some of my sole leather to an appropriate thickness, mull it for a while then let it dry for few hours so that it's moist all the way through, but not wet, then apply it like any normal toe box. If what I read is right then I don't need to cut the toe box to extend below the feather edge, right?

Thanks for the compliment

[Leatherimages]

"I think the book mentioned a 15 mm lasting allowance for economy when doing pattern designing for factories and the like, not sure though."

Your conclusion on this is right.

I'm with DW on this. Give me an inch. I'd rather just trim the extra away, rather than worry about it.

(Interestingly there is a current conversation going on right now on the Colloquy in the Lasting thread.

You might identify with the issues.

Check it out)

Your welt shouldn't be over 6 1/2 oz.

I don't really see how the heft or strength of the welt would help with damaged lasting allowance. If the upper has a weakness it could just pull out or continue to tear along the welt line.

What might be better, is to glue in a thin patch of skived leather reinforement on the flesh side of your vamp or liner (wherever your tears are along your welt line) and take another go at it.

Your idea with the pig skin has merit. I use that technique when I'm doing repairs to a weak or damaged insole.

I use a "rip stop" type fabric (picture attached), but I probably have used a thin pig before.

It is a good fix if you're worried about your holdfast tearing out. But of course an appropriate insole leather is always better. But I understand you are working with what you can get.

You're on the right track about how to prepare the toe box leather, casing it like that. You want to work with leather from about 5 oz. to maybe 6 1/2 oz, idealy. Too much over that will be too diificult to shape.

When preparing the toe box, you want a full 3/4" to 1" skive along the edge that will go across the toe. The by laying it atop your toe and bending it over to the edge of the last, you can determine where to begin to skive the lasting allowance edge which will be sewn into the inseam. From this determined edge, you want to skive the lasting margin down to about 3 oz.

That's a pretty awkward instruction, I hope you understand. But yes you should try to catch the edge of your toe box in your inseam.

I think I've got a picture for you.

Maybe you can see how I worked the edge of the box.

Stiffening the veg leather toe box is usually done with celluloid cement. Is that something you can find there?

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Good news! First boot is done!

Everything turned out quite well with the exception of the area around the welt. When I sculpted the holdfast I sculpted part of it wrong, so the welt didn't sit securely under the holdfast. When I sewed on the welt it sat good and tight against he side of the last on the vamp, but when I turned it down it did tear out a little bit as expected. It's not terrible though, and it's not really noticeable. I am concerned that he vamp will tear out, but not expecting it to for a fair while. Anyway, here are some pictures of the fist boot and the second one is well on it's way.

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

A very respectable job.

I'm eager to see the mate.

Your next pair will be a completely different experience.

Keep up he good work.

And Happy New Year From Stateside!

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Nick,

A very respectable job.

I'm eager to see the mate.

Your next pair will be a completely different experience.

Keep up he good work.

And Happy New Year From Stateside!

Thanks for the holiday wishes Paul, I hope you and yours had a good season together.

Christmas in China is a downright dreary experience, but fortunately I have the salts of the Earth to keep things in perspective.

Thanks also for the compliments on my work. I was anticipating less, and was pleased to see that it turned out as well as it did. You are right though, the next pair will be an entirely different experience.

I had a question though. When holing the insole for the second pair i tore out two of the holes with too much upward pressure, and was wondering if there are any effective ways to remedy this? I was thinking about skiving some sole leather to just the top grain and using the strongest contact cement i have to patch the area that tore out and then just using a strip of that pig skin to try to reinforce the area, but before doing so I wanted to consult you and see if you had any better suggestions?

Thanks again

Nick

[Leatherimages]

I like your perspective.

I like your whole attitude toward learning,

I think you could be a great shoe/boot maker.

You're on your way.

Your thinking is good for a repair to a breakout like that.

You can also (with your insole probably tempered) back up 1/4" and come at it from a little deeper.

A sharp, polished, inseaming awl, with it's bigger curve than a stitching awl, gives the job a better chance.

I was shown to place my inseaming awl into my channel convex curve rather than concave, if you know what I mean. Point down, enter and twist, coming out at the base of the holdfast. The more consistent you are, in making the hole, the better the stitch line will be clean and straight.

Allowing, that is, the thread to awl sizes are compatible.

There's a chart or something in the Colloquy archives, but the important thing is to use what you have a practice good technique while you look for better tools. It's aprocess.

Show the pair when you're done.

Happy New Year!