Dodging Bullets.

[Lobo]

I recently received a request for an IWB-style holster with thumb-break for a S&W J-frame revolver. As most of us having much experience with IWB-style holsters know, a thumb-break retention device on such a holster can make it difficult, if not impossible, to access the revolver under some circumstances.

I responded to Mr. Customer, advising him of the potential for problems with the holster he wanted to order. Mr. Customer, an experienced law enforcement officer, replied to the effect that he was fully aware of the issues described, but still wanted to order the holster as specified.

Here is my response to Mr. Customer:

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Requests like yours put me in the position of making a decision based upon the risks and benefits of proceeding. While I have no doubt that you have the experience and knowledge to make good choices for your personal gear, I also know that I would be entering into an area of potential liability exposure in the event that what I know might occur does actually occur.

A lawyer might better explain, but basically I remain exposed even when the customer has knowingly and willingly released me from liability. Prior releases simply are not a valid defense, and your prior release would have no effect whatsoever on potential claims brought by your family or others after a preventable tragedy.

I carry car insurance, but I still do everything I can to avoid accidents. I carry business insurance, but I have to do everything that I can to avoid liability exposures.

In this case, my decision is pretty simple. The profit from a holster sale is not sufficient inducement for me to expose myself or my insurance carrier to a potential claim related to a preventable incident of death or serious bodily harm arising from the use of one of my products.

With all due respect, I must decline your order and urge you to reconsider having such a holster made for your use.

Best regards,

<signature>

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We all receive requests from potential customers for products that we know in advance will not work as the customer intends. Sometimes what the customer wants may pose risks in actual use.

No amount of profit can justify producing some holster designs. It is best to always remember what we are dealing with in holster making, real firearms carried by real people in real situations, usually with live ammunition!

For what it may be worth to you.

[RickHodges]

Lobo,

The more I read about and look at your work the more I like it. I like your stance, personal integrity over the all mighty dollar. Thank you sir.

Rick

[kRicktr]

Hi , I'm new!

I must say Sir- Good Form!

[Russ]

It's possible he doesn't have a choice. I know of a couple of agencies around me that require all off duty holsters to have a thumb-break design.

I recently received a request for an IWB-style holster with thumb-break for a S&W J-frame revolver. As most of us having much experience with IWB-style holsters know, a thumb-break retention device on such a holster can make it difficult, if not impossible, to access the revolver under some circumstances.

I responded to Mr. Customer, advising him of the potential for problems with the holster he wanted to order. Mr. Customer, an experienced law enforcement officer, replied to the effect that he was fully aware of the issues described, but still wanted to order the holster as specified.

Here is my response to Mr. Customer:

----------------------------------------------------

Requests like yours put me in the position of making a decision based upon the risks and benefits of proceeding. While I have no doubt that you have the experience and knowledge to make good choices for your personal gear, I also know that I would be entering into an area of potential liability exposure in the event that what I know might occur does actually occur.

A lawyer might better explain, but basically I remain exposed even when the customer has knowingly and willingly released me from liability. Prior releases simply are not a valid defense, and your prior release would have no effect whatsoever on potential claims brought by your family or others after a preventable tragedy.

I carry car insurance, but I still do everything I can to avoid accidents. I carry business insurance, but I have to do everything that I can to avoid liability exposures.

In this case, my decision is pretty simple. The profit from a holster sale is not sufficient inducement for me to expose myself or my insurance carrier to a potential claim related to a preventable incident of death or serious bodily harm arising from the use of one of my products.

With all due respect, I must decline your order and urge you to reconsider having such a holster made for your use.

Best regards,

<signature>

---------------------------------------------------------------------

We all receive requests from potential customers for products that we know in advance will not work as the customer intends. Sometimes what the customer wants may pose risks in actual use.

No amount of profit can justify producing some holster designs. It is best to always remember what we are dealing with in holster making, real firearms carried by real people in real situations, usually with live ammunition!

For what it may be worth to you.

[dickf]

It's possible he doesn't have a choice. I know of a couple of agencies around me that require all off duty holsters to have a thumb-break design.

I've encountered this, as well. In fact, I just got done making one for a repeat LEO customer - an IWB with thumb break for a G27 for use on-duty. His dept. won't allow any on-duty gear without a retention device. He chose a thumb break. He also understands the risks associated with carrying an IWB with an extra step.

With that said, my personal stance has been to deny making these types of items for the same reasons. If I know the person it's going to has training with this type of equipment, then I will sometimes make an exception. For the normal customer looking for a concealment rig, I do my best to inform them why the retention device on an iwb is not only unsafe, but unnecessary for them. They usually order a normal IWB and are very happy. If they insist on the IWB with break, then they go somewhere else.

[gregintenn]

Would you be so kind as to explain the dangers of a thumb break retention strap on an IWB holster? I realize it wouldn't be as fast, but is there something else I'm missing? Thanks, Greg

[dickf]

This is my opinion only, but the danger I see in it is that with an IWB, you have a cover garment on; whether it's a heavy coat, light jacket, or just a tee shirt, it's something you'll have to pull back or work around. Once you get to the grip of the gun, you'll need to navigate your thumb into the break and pop it open while drawing the weapon.

In a life and death scenerio, where the adrenaline is pumping and fractions of seconds count, the last step requires fine motor skills that require valuable time. It's not as fast, it's not as easy, and it adds one more obstacle between you and your weapon. Anyway, this is just how I see it.

[kRicktr]

Despite the release of liability signed and on file between a customer and manufacturer - the potential of civil suits filed on behalf of party and/or family can and will ruin any business.

[Lobo]

Would you be so kind as to explain the dangers of a thumb break retention strap on an IWB holster? I realize it wouldn't be as fast, but is there something else I'm missing? Thanks, Greg

Greg:

As DickF has described, the thumb-break adds a rather significant obstacle to getting the weapon out of the holster and into service when needed. I also have concerns that the IWB holster, wedged tightly into the body in use with a thumb-break compressed between body and weapon, could make it impossible to disengage the thumb-break while the body is in some positions. Life and death scenarios happen suddenly, frequently without warning, and may involve physical altercations prior to the necessity for employing deadly force. These situations do not make allowances for too many errors.

During my law enforcement career I experienced quite a few difficult situations. I have had to fight to retain control of my weapon on occasion. I have been involved in physical confrontations with multiple aggressors in which weapons were drawn on me while I was physically defending myself. I have had to draw my weapon while standing, while sitting, while driving a car, while wrestling and handcuffing a suspect on the ground, and while dropping and rolling away from the side of a car in which the driver had pointed a pistol at me. I have been shot, stabbed, slashed with a straight razor, run down by a car, and thrown off the balcony of an apartment building, all of which stopped being fun the very first time they happened! About the only thing I can't recall is having to face off with a bad guy in the middle of the street in front of a saloon at high noon and seeing who could draw the fastest, or shoot the straightest.

Some ideas are just not all that good. In my opinion, IWB-style holsters with thumb-breaks are not a good idea for people who have any expectation of having to defend themselves.

As Mr. Murphy famously pointed out, anything that can go wrong will go wrong, and it will always happen at the worst possible time.

[Shooter McGavin]

<snip>

As Mr. Murphy famously pointed out, anything that can go wrong will go wrong, and it will always happen at the worst possible time.

</snip>

You guys dont have to worry though, as it usually only happens to me!

Thanks for your time spent on the job Lobo. Glad you're still around after all that!

[Russ]

Of course, this potential is there at all times. Even a holster made like Lobo and Dick describe, if the owner is involved in a shooting, the lawyers will be studying any holster involved, especially a holster that's not made by a large manufacturer.

Despite the release of liability signed and on file between a customer and manufacturer - the potential of civil suits filed on behalf of party and/or family can and will ruin any business.

[gregintenn]

Thanks for the explanations. I don't care for a thumb break on a CCW holster of any style. Your answers sort of confirmed what I thought, but I was afraid I was missing something else. I'm lucky enough to have never been in the situations Lobo described. I don't envy anyone who has been.

[Mattkcc]

I wouldn't worry about a LEO having a thumb break, most departments will require it. For the officer it's not an extra step because his duty holster is a thumb break in most cases. Due to muscle memory even if you don't put one on the holster his thumb will still be reaching for it. You may have a bigger liability concern not having some type of retention strap on the holster. You would have a hard time convincing a jury that molded leather and a belt were enough to hold a gun in a holster if something goes wrong. The big liability is when the gun is out of the holster either intentionally or unintentionally. Example your customer is fighting a bad guy rolling around on the ground and his gun pops out of the holster. It can happen trust me I know from experience, I had a buddy dancing in a club and his snubbie fell out and got kicked around the dance floor. There are good reasons departments require a retention strap, if a department requires the strap they are assuming the greater part of the liability, they have much deeper pockets, they wouldn't require it if it increased their liability.

[Lobo]

I wouldn't worry about a LEO having a thumb break, most departments will require it. For the officer it's not an extra step because his duty holster is a thumb break in most cases. Due to muscle memory even if you don't put one on the holster his thumb will still be reaching for it. You may have a bigger liability concern not having some type of retention strap on the holster. You would have a hard time convincing a jury that molded leather and a belt were enough to hold a gun in a holster if something goes wrong. The big liability is when the gun is out of the holster either intentionally or unintentionally. Example your customer is fighting a bad guy rolling around on the ground and his gun pops out of the holster. It can happen trust me I know from experience, I had a buddy dancing in a club and his snubbie fell out and got kicked around the dance floor. There are good reasons departments require a retention strap, if a department requires the strap they are assuming the greater part of the liability, they have much deeper pockets, they wouldn't require it if it increased their liability.

I have no problems with thumb-breaks in general. That option is offered on most of my holster designs, and is standard on a couple. My problem is specifically with thumb-breaks on IWB-style holsters, worn between the belt/trousers and body where it can be very difficult or impossible to release the thumb-break when the body is in a number of positions and circumstances.

Quite a few agencies require thumb-break (or "positive mechanical retention") on holsters used by their officers. Officers employed by those agencies, when acting within the scope of employment, are typically covered by workers' compensation, insurance (medical, disability, life), and pension plans (retirement and/or disability). The employing agency is generally liable for acts of employees when performing within the scope of employment (including rules, regulations, laws, etc). However, when said employee is outside the employing jurisdiction, or engaged in outside employment (part-time security jobs, etc), or acting outside the scope of employment (rules, regulations, laws, etc), the employing agency is largely shielded from responsibility or liability.

Others may proceed as they wish when receiving orders for IWB-style holsters with thumb-breaks. As for me, a bad idea remains a bad idea, and avoiding any potential exposure to unnecessary claims just makes good business sense.

Best regards.

[Mattkcc]

Since I want a thumb break on my holster I have the gun ride a little higher then normal. This way I'm not having to try and jam my thumb down into my belt. However, I rarely carry this way. I've learn that the guy who draws first normally wins and you can't walk around with your hand on your gun every time your around a scary person. But I can and do walk with my hand in my pocket,gripping my j-frame in a pocket holster, if I have to walk by a couple of thugs on the streets. I can clear leather a lot faster then a thug trying to pull a gun out of this belt.

Currently I don't even have an IWB every time I make a holster a buddy or one of my students,college, has to have it. I need start charging for the materials, leather cost are killing me.

[gregintenn]

I turned down a job a few days ago to build an IWB with a thumb break. I explained to the gentleman why, but he insisted. I suggested he look at the selection of mass produced holsters. He didn't seem upset, but I don't think he understood either.