Blackjack Question

[usmc0341]

Not sure if this is the right place for this but it seems like the only place it fits. I want to make a blackjack (the things cops carried way back when) but can't figure out what the "inners" are. I'm pretty sure it's lead but I'm not sure if I can just use a whole bunch of little fishing sinkers or if it needs to be one long piece to make it more rigid. I hope this makes sense to someone because it makes sense as I'm typing it but I know what I'm thinking. If someone has cut one in half or has made one I would appreciate the input. Thank you.

[evandailey]

Not sure if this is the right place for this but it seems like the only place it fits. I want to make a blackjack (the things cops carried way back when) but can't figure out what the "inners" are. I'm pretty sure it's lead but I'm not sure if I can just use a whole bunch of little fishing sinkers or if it needs to be one long piece to make it more rigid. I hope this makes sense to someone because it makes sense as I'm typing it but I know what I'm thinking. If someone has cut one in half or has made one I would appreciate the input. Thank you.

I always thought those were filled with fairly fine lead shot. I've never cut one open but that's sure what they feel like. I would think that would be a lot easier to make with shot because you could stitch it most of the way up and then pour it full and finish the stitch.

[Rayban]

A blackjack has a solid piece of lead in it, and sometime a spring material in the handle part.

A sap is usually loaded with lead shot, bird shot......I made one recently filled with BBs.

[usmc0341]

Evandailey-thank you, I didn't even think about stitching it most of the way and filling it up, I was trying to figure out how to keep all the lead in place.

Rayban- Do you have pictures of the work in progress?

[TwinOaks]

There's at least two styles I know of- one with a shot bag, the other with a little chunk (piece of bar). The bar is obviously stiffer. I made shot bag saps, and here's how:

Get a shape and determine how much shot you'll need. I arbitrarily determined that a standard shotgun shell (#8 shot) would be a good amount. Make a bag out of scrap fabric for the shot, fill, and sew it closed. Sandwich the shot bag between the pieces of leather, stitch it up, dye and finish. The ones I made looks like a realllllly long necked light bulb, and I added a strip of leather down the handle to make it stiffer. A hole in the handle end makes a point for a lanyard. Because of the shape, I made the shot bag pretty flat, and included a welt around the 'head' to help make a pocket for the shot bag.

[usmc0341]

Man, I thought I would be the only one that would make one of these but it sounds like a couple of you guys have built some. I already have my pattern cut out and the logistics have been cleared up by the above posts. I like the sewed up pouch idea. I'd really like to see pictures if anyone has any....

[TwinOaks]

Just be sure they are legal in your area, otherwise you may need to sell them as "paper weights".

[Rayban]

Hey Marine....there are internet collector groups out there that make, collect, trade, sell. these things like baseball cards.......

I made what these collectors called the "old school" style. I cut two pieces of leather to the shape I wanted, glued and stitched them together, but left on opening at the end of the handle open....and poured and packed the shot from that end. When I was done with the shot, I stitched the opening shut, installed a grommet, I was done.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Rayban

[usmc0341]

Thanks Rayban that was just what I was looking for. And TwinOaks thanks for the advic.

[Lobo]

Things were so much more civilized before pepper spray, stun guns, and tasers! Apply a little blunt force trauma, shatter a wrist, crack a skull, break a collarbone.

Back in the '70's and '80's, when I was a working cop, our uniform trousers were made with a reinforced vertical pocket along the outer seam about mid-thigh height, intended to carry a sap. Many of us carried these, either in lieu of or in addition to a nightstick. I have several in my little collection. The better ones featured a spring-steel shank full length with a paddle-shaped chunk of lead, all encased in leather stitched around in a paddle-shape, usually with a leather strap to aid in retention (or use like a medieval flail). Bucheimer-Clark and several other holster-making companies offered these for many years.

Another innovation was the "sap glove", leather gloves with panels stitched in to hold 4 or 5 ounces of powdered lead. These were made with the "sap" built over the knuckles or across the heel of the hand. I think the manufacturer was "Damascus", if memory serves correctly. Even a little "sissie-slap" could have a brutal effect. Possession or use of "sap gloves" became almost synonymous with "police brutality", and most law enforcement agencies had banned any kind of sap-type device by the mid-80's or so. When I bacame a chief, and started writing and enforcing rules and regulations, I made sure that "unauthorized weapons" were broadly defined and completely prohibited.

I would be very careful about offering such items for sale. Several states have laws prohibiting ownership, transfer, sale, etc, or limiting such items to law enforcement agencies or personnel.

[usmc0341]

Thanks Lobo, I'm not selling them I just want to make one because I want one. When I started in Law Enforcement I carried a PR24 and now an ASP. Our pants still have the slapjack pocket but we aren't allowed to carry them.

[marine mp]

Mortarman,

As with several other replies, I have made several, (making one as we type) that is specifically a "sap" I fill it with BB's and has a 5/16 expansion spring from top to bottom. Mine has bb's in the handle with the spring. It is like others have stated, filled from the handle and sewn up and the leather strap wraps over the top of the hand and is sewn again to form a loop. Don't know how to post pictures or I would show. As Lobo has stated....be weary as to how it is maketed if they are to be sold. My state allow one to be bought and carried, but it is illegal to use it on a person. But....that being said......if my life is in danger I don't believe I will be asking myself if it is legal or illegal. It is better for me to be "tried by twelve, than carried by six" Semper-fi MIke

[Billsotx]

Not sure if this is the right place for this but it seems like the only place it fits. I want to make a blackjack (the things cops carried way back when) but can't figure out what the "inners" are. I'm pretty sure it's lead but I'm not sure if I can just use a whole bunch of little fishing sinkers or if it needs to be one long piece to make it more rigid. I hope this makes sense to someone because it makes sense as I'm typing it but I know what I'm thinking. If someone has cut one in half or has made one I would appreciate the input. Thank you.

What we typically referred to as a blackjack was a lead weight on the end of a spring and round in shape; while a slapjack is flat. You'll mostly see blackjacks covered with chrome tanned thin cheesy leather; a good one will be covered with rawhide braided thongs with a monkey's fist type of knot at the grip end tying it all together. We preferred the rawhide because it cuts like a knife when you wield it. I no longer have the casting tools but I altered a large fishing sinker weight to cast them, I'm talking a large sinker. I used to see them around fishing tackle shops. The procedure is the same as casting bullets; a stiff spring about 3/4 to 7/8 inch diameter is inserted into the mold and then the molten lead is poured in. If you're not familiar with casting you might read up on bullet casting, there's tons of stuff on the web.

For slap-jacks I also used a casting, but my mold was the lid from a pickle jar. It's a onetime use mold; lids are cheap. The slap uses a flat spring, not a coil, at least the ones around this part of the country. You can use a coil spring if you want, but you'll probably have to jury rig another kind of mold. Anyway, for the flat spring I would cut and grind a piece of suitable shape from an old or cheap carpenter's saw. I've made smaller jacks of this design with old putty knives (large size); it needs to be spring steel hard if you want a good one and it needs to be cast in one piece too. Back to construction, just a thin slit is cut in the side of the jar lid and the spring is slipped through it; it needs to be a tight fit; you want the end of the spring steel within the lid taking up about 3/4s of the area cross the diameter of the lid, maybe just a tad more. Regress back, I also punched two or three holes in the business end of the spring, the one that protrudes into the lid, so that the molten lead runs through said holes and becomes firmly attached to the spring steel. This put the spring centered in the lead casting. After the lead has cooled the lid is cut away from the lead and spring and the lead can be cleaned up and shaped to your design.

I covered mine with 11/12 oz. cowhide; a welt was inserted much like we put in the old border patrol style holsters so that there was a smooth flow in the whole appearance of the thing. I would also put a loop on one side to slip your hand through.

I'm not going to preach to you about use and I'm not into PC crud, but my experience was the shot filled saps do not hold up well in actual use and veg-tanned cowhide or horsehide is more prone to leave large whelps and bruises, while rawhide cut and draws blood. Nothing takes the fight out of an opponent or subject resisting arrest quicker than the sight of his/her own blood. If you're just making one for nostalgia the shot filling will be easiest, if you are making an actual tool I would go with a casting no exception. All this said, jacks and saps fell from vogue in the late 80s as we in law enforcement were pounded into a kinder and gentler group of warriors. (If you believe the kinder/gentler part, I have a nice playa down near Del Rio, TX that I'll sell real cheap ... LOL!)

Below are links to some pix that may help you. I haven't seen a pix of a rawhide jack, but the Nazi design on the one page is real close. That's probably where our original design stemmed from.

http://www.donrearic.com/sap.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=police+blackjack&hl=en&rlz=1C1CHHQ_enUS390US391&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=bn-gTe-nLNO50QHekY2QBQ&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1199&bih=654

Maybe this will make some since and help a little.

Semper Fi,

Bill

[robs456]

I made this one a while back, it's filled with no. 9 shot throughout and is very well balanced. It's heavy though (made for training) so if you want to carry one around use the "shot bag method" explained above, or cast a medallion as in Bill's excellent post above.

[Reaper]

5:11 still sells lead shot knuckle gloves. I was playing around with one of the guys who has a pair and he hit another of our friends behind the ear as he walked past us. Actually dropped him to his knees and he really didn't hit him that hard.

I do know that it is as mentioned above, in some places it is against the law to even make them let alone sell them.

Kind of like Armor Piercing Ammo, here in Florida it is against the law to Make, Sell, Possess any as a Civilian.

[Sixer]

A blackjack has a solid piece of lead in it, and sometime a spring material in the handle part.

A sap is usually loaded with lead shot, bird shot......I made one recently filled with BBs.

Interesting... what kind of "spring" are we talking about? An actual coiled spring, or a flat piece of flexible metal?