Tsc 441 Clone, Necessary Accessories

[Cobra Tom]

Dear Trox,

I attached some photos of the optional plates and feet. I did not have one for the left and right toe feet, but imagine each half of the double toe foot as a separate foot.

Thank you Tom for clearing this up, you are working together with Steve I presume.

I tried to sew some veg.-tanned leather on my machine with the standard plate and feed dog. Most of the markings underneath seem to come from the small groves in the blanket needle plate. Those groves can be grinded of and polished, and with a smooth feed dog, it will be just fine. Are your Cobra standard plates smooth?

>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, our standard needle plates are smooth. Look at the first two photos.

I also have two small issues with my machine, they might be related.

The foot pedal jumps up and down when sewing (it sounds like some big agriculture machine, compared to my Adler's), It do not disturb the sewing, but is very annoying.

The stitch length on full is also to long; 16 mm, it has to be 11 mm.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>You can adjust your stitch length setting with the little wheel in the forward/reverse lever. I would not worry that your maximum stitch length is longer than you expect from that brand unless the feed dog makes contact with the plate.

I have not had the time to read the service manual yet, when I adjust the stitch-length, maybe the pedal issue is gone too?

>>>>>>>>>>>It could be that the chain which connects to the machine's lift mechanism on the foot pedal is too tight. It should have little bit of slack. I am not certain but that would be my first guess.

(It backtacks in the same holes and the needle do not hit anything, despites it long stitch length).

Is this right?

>>>>>>>>>>Yes, the needle should go through the same holes in reverse.

It is more that do not add up to the machine specs too.

This machine is produced in 2007 and sold in France. The foot lift is supposed to be only 20 mm, (on your later machines the foot lift is increased to 1 1/8 inch)

I measured mine it to be 24, 6 mm, about one inch.

What is changed in the newer machines to increase the foot lift, it uses the same needle system 794 (7x3).

Do you know the answer to this?

>>>>>>>>>>>>I think it was done by increasing the length of one of the arms (or linkages) in the lift mechanism. In the U.S we say the bigger the better. :-)

(I believe this was three questions, bare with me please). When you ask 3 questions you get the 4th for free.

In advance thanks.

(I am sorry for the bad pictures, old Iphone)

Trox

[Trox]

Thank you all for your replies.

I had to take my dogs for a walk; it is the middle of the night here now, so I am of to bed.

I will answer your posts tomorrow, with some pictures to explain the issue better.

Thanks for all help and good night.

Trox

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Now, if you had taken up that Cowboy distributor agreement you would have access to the full range of options!

[Thank you Dirtclod, Bruce and Art,

This answered my first question; I decided to choose the stirrup plate.

The paddle foot looks very clever too, I often have problems with my other walking foot machines, sewing along the edge and rounding a corner. The vibrating presser go outside the edge, the paddle foot will resolve this problem. And if they do not work out, they can be altered in to a harness foot.

I agree with Art the center presser has to be opened or else I have to sew blind.

(I see a lot of this closed foot on Chinese equipment, they are useless in my opinion)

　

I understand you all have different versions of the 441 clone. Bruce you use the Pro 2000, Art you use the Cobra 4, I guess Dirtclod also use the Cobra?

I believe the Cobra comes with the slotted plate as a standard, and then the machine only uses its top feed. When other machines like the Cowboy 4500, comes with a smooth feed dog and a standard needle plate, using their triple feed.

I would very much like your opinion on this too.

I also use a Pfaff cylinder bed and a Dürkopp Adler flat bed for my smaller work. They are both triple feed and uses feed dogs. The Pfaff uses a smooth feed dog and on both machines has their feed dogs set in level with the needle plate. None of them tends to mark the underside of the leather much.

However, on the big stitchers, the foot pressure will increase and it will likely be a bigger issue here.

(I am used to bottom feed heavy stitchers and know of the tricks to avoid markings)

What is your experience on this matter?

In advance thanks.

Trox

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

If you want to do decorative stitching work then a compound feed is possibly more of a hindrance than a help. Go back to your 45k type machine.

Thanks to Jim Beaton for this information as he is a master saddler and has forgotten more than most people on this site ever knew about stitching leather.

[Trox]

That is true Darren, but I am afraid I had been stuck with it myself. Norway has a population of five millions, and only five of them are saddlers. (I do not know of every one who is, but it is not many)

This 441 clone was for sale for a long time here, at a very good price. I offered them a small down payment and a full payment on pickup 60 days later. Even with those conditions, I was able to get the price further down. That tells you about the demand. Saddlers here are a dying breed; you have of course the people that cannot afford to pay for repairing their horse tack. They want a machine to fix it them self, and buy a Singer 99 on the local auction site. When they finally understand that 200 $ cannot get them what they want, they buy some tack made of nylon instead. I hesitate to list my five for sale machines locally, I do not like the result I might get. I had better sell them to foreign dealers for less to save time. Alternatively, the way I have done it before, I wait for somebody who needs a certain machine and I set it up for him/her to a friendly price. Then again, they take up needed space, and getting less modern every day. I got an offer from a German dealer on two of my Adler’s yesterday, and I need a German Efka motor, maybe as part of the deal. You need machines Darren, is It a lot import tax for you? I have heard something about tax free older goods, items made before the introduction of tax system, is free of tax. What about antiques, are they free of tax in your place?

Trox

Now, if you had taken up that Cowboy distributor agreement you would have access to the full range of options!

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

The beauty of my business is that I have started with the absolute basic product - a wertheim, Bradbury type clone. The next step for them is a 45k type machine. Eventually some will move up to a 441 clone.

That is true Darren, but I am afraid I had been stuck with it myself. Norway has a population of five millions, and only five of them are saddlers. (I do not know of every one who is, but it is not many)

This 441 clone was for sale for a long time here, at a very good price. I offered them a small down payment and a full payment on pickup 60 days later. Even with those conditions, I was able to get the price further down. That tells you about the demand. Saddlers here are a dying breed; you have of course the people that cannot afford to pay for repairing their horse tack. They want a machine to fix it them self, and buy a Singer 99 on the local auction site. When they finally understand that 200 $ cannot get them what they want, they buy some tack made of nylon instead. I hesitate to list my five for sale machines locally, I do not like the result I might get. I had better sell them to foreign dealers for less to save time. Alternatively, the way I have done it before, I wait for somebody who needs a certain machine and I set it up for him/her to a friendly price. Then again, they take up needed space, and getting less modern every day. I got an offer from a German dealer on two of my Adler's yesterday, and I need a German Efka motor, maybe as part of the deal. You need machines Darren, is It a lot import tax for you? I have heard something about tax free older goods, items made before the introduction of tax system, is free of tax. What about antiques, are they free of tax in your place?

Trox

[Trox]

That the way to do it Darren I agree with you, and be very informative about the product you sell. Lead the customer in the right direction and create the marked you do not already have. For my own sales I will use all that our modern world can offer of cheap technology, a video on every machine explain what thousand words cannot. We all have that technology in our pocket phone; very few use this basic tool. A customer do not know all the wonders the machine can do, or more important not do. However, remember to have what they need when they are ready to step up to a bigger machine, or else you will loose them to an other dealer.

The 45 type of machine is something special indeed; I have a hard time selling my Adler 5-27 with all the extras. The pre war machine still looks like new. I maybe will keep it in my living room, so I remember to start work.

Trox

The beauty of my business is that I have started with the absolute basic product - a wertheim, Bradbury type clone. The next step for them is a 45k type machine. Eventually some will move up to a 441 clone.

[Trox]

The former posts was a bit of our discussed topic:offtopic:

I was wrong in my presuming you had a Cobra, Dirtclod. The old Juki Pro 2000 is a Japanese American made machine and has to be top notch.

　

Thanks Art for your answer. I have heard the Highlead is a very good and strong machine. These machines sounds like something the farmers use to cut corn with, at those speeds it will be advisable to use hearing protection.

　

　

　

Thank you Tom for pictures and informative answer.

Your accessories looks great, I have seen pictures of the single harness foot.

One-day later update.

Bob from Toledo offered me a good deal on the missing hand lever, stirrup plate, smooth feed dog, harness foot set, and a full paddle foot set. Only when buying all this together I could get a good deal like this, so I took it. (Parts is shipped express and is in the mail now).

Thank you Bob for great service and fast shipping.

The drop down guide I ordered from Kwokhing, I choose an extra long guide KG 967 and an Adler 205 bracket. (They do not sell a special guide made for the 441, but I am sure this will fit)

Tom,

Last time I bought from your company, I try to spread my (hard earned) Norwegian oil dollars evenly among you member dealers. (It is a quick job; it is not much of it. Price and availability is of course the key factor here, some of the parts you could not offer me, next time it can be the other way around)

Thank you Tom and Art, you had both partly right about the jumping foot issue.

The people that first assembled the machine cannot have been very experienced on the matter. They have mounted the motor to close to the machine, so the foot lift chain was resting on the motor. The reason I did not move it when I attached the speed reducer was that they had used threads inside the tabletop to fix it. Those threads is permanently fixed inside the wood, I did not have new bolts that was long enough to drill new holes and left it the way it was.

Now I have eliminated the issue with an exhaust clip and a brass tube piece. This keeps the chain clear of the motor. See attached pic.

About the stitch length

I know how to adjust the stitch user length on the lever; I have several machines with the same system. I meant the mechanically adjustments of the stitch length

　

　

I did not explain well enough about the issues.

I use to service all my machines myself, It kind of a hobby to buy and build up machines. I occasionally sell one or two too. I now have ten and selling five of them. Three was up for sale before I got this, If this machine works well, I be selling two more. (Adler’s 204-64 and 105-25)

I will keep the ones I am using now, a long arm Singer patcher, a medium pfaff cylinder, a Dürkopp Adler 267-373, and this 441 clone.

The 441 came with an ISM 600 Watt four pole clutch motor. It is surprisingly easy to use on slow speed, even before I attached a speed reducer.

However I am considering putting a Efka 1550 stop motor on it, I like those Efka`s, I use them on some of my other machine too, no need for a speed reducer with this motor.

I have a Juki service manual, when I told you that I have not read it, I lied.

I am the kind of machine freak that reads sewing manuals as bed and toilet literature. In addition, do so long before I actually buy the particular machine I read about. However, I have not studied it closely yet, just read true it.

In the manual they say it is important to adjust it to the right maximum stitch length, When the hand lever is on full it should be 11 mm according to the manual. Nevertheless, if the needle is not in conflict with anything, I do not know how important this matter really is.

These are Juki specifications, I asked because you all have experience with the clone and know how similar it is to the real thing. If I had a Juki, I would just adjust it according to the manual.

A other thing I have learned about machines is that everything tend to be related to each other, all adjustments has to be done in the right order. This is the case with my Alder’s, and most other machines too.

I will go true and control every adjustment according to the Juki manual later. Besides the stitch length, the machine now works, as it should.

Thanks

Tor

[Trox]

Hi Darren,

It is a used machine for sale in Norway just like the ones you are selling. It is for sale very cheap 167 $ (USD) I have no use for it but if somebody has I can buy it and ship it. I should be in working order but needs a service (like every used machine needs). What kind of needle system is this machine using, and can it do more than a 29K. Please compare it to a 29K, what do you think. It is only 40 km from me, I can ask if it still available. I might also a customer for it my self.

Trox

The beauty of my business is that I have started with the absolute basic product - a wertheim, Bradbury type clone. The next step for them is a 45k type machine. Eventually some will move up to a 441 clone.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

The machines are built for the third world so they are extremely simple and don't need much in the way of service. Needles are 15X1 so readily available. It has very similar performance to the 29k but can be inconsistent with M20 thread so I stick to M40.

The problem with the machines at $US167 is that the chances of them working as they arrive are less than 50% so every machine I sell is first tested and is sold with everything the customer needs including needles, timber base, tool kit and instructions.

Hi Darren,

It is a used machine for sale in Norway just like the ones you are selling. It is for sale very cheap 167 $ (USD) I have no use for it but if somebody has I can buy it and ship it. I should be in working order but needs a service (like every used machine needs). What kind of needle system is this machine using, and can it do more than a 29K. Please compare it to a 29K, what do you think. It is only 40 km from me, I can ask if it still available. I might also a customer for it my self.

Trox