Liability Waiver For Firearms Left With You?

[cleveland]

Do any of you use liability waivers when a customer leaves a firearm with you?

When a firearm is left with me I will take down the serial number and the time it’s dropped off, then log it out when the customer picks up their firearm and holster. Recently a customer suggested that I expand this to include a liability waiver.

He said, “What would you do if someone claimed you scratched their Kimber and demanded you pay for it?”

This got me thinking though, am I opening myself up to unnecessary liability?

What are your thoughts?

[Dwight]

First, . . . I guess I would hope that the wonderful folks I deal with would never pull such a typical Democrat stunt.

Secondly, . . . I'd tell him to help himself, . . . when the day is over, . . . it will be "he said / he said", . . . without full evidence to prove I did do it, . . . I cannot be convicted, . . . my lawyer will then go after him for all the court costs he caused me to incur, . . . he WILL pay those costs, . . . in the long run, . . . he could just go out and buy himself a new Kimber with what he would have lost in the legal wranglings.

And I would plainly spell it out to him just that way.

Then I would most likely take a very large pair of scissors, . . . cut up whatever it was I made for him, . . . and tell him to take his fat carcass, . . . get out of my shop, . . . and do not come back.

I don't play the "legal liability" games. Yes, there are people out there who will try their best to "get" anyone and everyone they can, . . . but I just don't put up with those kinds of jerks.

May God bless,

Dwight

[rickybobby]

First, . . . I guess I would hope that the wonderful folks I deal with would never pull such a typical Democrat stunt.

May God bless,

Dwight

Just curious, What does this mean?

And no, I never ask for a waiver. I am careful with a customers firearm and I do inspect for scratches, nicks, discoloration and point it out (when they drop it off) while the customer is standing there so they see it too.

Edited July 28, 2012 by rickybobby

[TwinOaks]

You may want to look into the legal requirements if you plan to do this at a business, depending on your location. If it's just friends, or people you know, that's one thing, but as a business I think there are some specific requirements. Not necessarily an FFL, but something similar to what gunsmiths use.

[katsass]

From the grump: I have a standard, two piece disclaimer which covers the make, mod, serial number and condition of the gun in question. It also includes the statement that the weapon is to be used only for pattern making and molding of the holster. The requirements of the design are then hand written in and the customer signs my copy, and I sign and date his for my receipt of the weapon. Upon return of the weapon my customer signs a statement that the gun was returned in 'the same condition as received', on the date indicated. That copy stays with me -- in what some may laughably call my 'filing system'. Mike

[dougb]

You may want to look into the legal requirements if you plan to do this at a business, depending on your location. If it's just friends, or people you know, that's one thing, but as a business I think there are some specific requirements. Not necessarily an FFL, but something similar to what gunsmiths use.

This makes real sense. You may also consider using a camera to record the condition of the weapon, and a lockable secure storage area. It's what can be proved in court that counts.(I was going to make a comment about conservatives and justice vs volume, but that made as much sense as the comment about Democrats)

[cleveland]

Thanks for the replies!

You may want to look into the legal requirements if you plan to do this at a business, depending on your location. If it's just friends, or people you know, that's one thing, but as a business I think there are some specific requirements. Not necessarily an FFL, but something similar to what gunsmiths use.

That has never crossed my mind.

From the grump: I have a standard, two piece disclaimer which covers the make, mod, serial number and condition of the gun in question. It also includes the statement that the weapon is to be used only for pattern making and molding of the holster. The requirements of the design are then hand written in and the customer signs my copy, and I sign and date his for my receipt of the weapon. Upon return of the weapon my customer signs a statement that the gun was returned in 'the same condition as received', on the date indicated. That copy stays with me -- in what some may laughably call my 'filing system'. Mike

Would you be willing to post that doc or PM me a copy?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I would say depending on how often this happens,and what types of firearms, it may not be even worth dealing with (if you are talking about getting insurance). Once a year with a Ruger GP100, or 5 times a month with mint condition engraved early Colt SAA's? On the ocassions when we were working on a high end shotgun ($8,000 Perazzi trap gun) we would make extra sure the bench was clear of sharp pointy objects, lay more pads down, and be extra careful when removing pins, or screws. If you are doing this routinely, then yes, there is a higher chance that there could be an accident with your customer's firearm that coudld cost you some green. What you have to ask yourself is, are the insurance premiums going to cost me more than the repairs / restoration? It may be better for you to just put some money aside, and self insure. I would do that myself, since I doubt I would ever be working on Luger SN#-2 in .45 acp that was used for US military evaluations, and last I read was valued at $1,000,000+. Another thing is you can usually pick up on the anal retentive customers where EVERYTHNG has to be just right. With them you can just say, sorry, I can't do that without a dummy gun.

If you feel the need, get a good camera, and take good clear closeup pictures all over, and make a note of any prior damage when it arrives. Kinda like when the rental car company does the walk around when you rent a car.

[rickybobby]

I would say depending on how often this happens,and what types of firearms, it may not be even worth dealing with (if you are talking about getting insurance).

If you feel the need, get a good camera, and take good clear closeup pictures all over, and make a note of any prior damage when it arrives. Kinda like when the rental car company does the walk around when you rent a car.

This is a good method and pretty much how I approach the situation, I worked in the autobody repair field for 20 years, people never look at their cars until they pick them up from YOU, then every rusted scratch or door ding happened at your shop. These "prior damage" items are pointed out while they are dropping the gun/car off and noted ends all of the questions when picked up.

BTW when I rent a car I mark every panel on their check out sheet, I can find a chip, scratch, ding on every panel of a rental vehicle. The people at the rental places can't believe it so I show them a mark of some kind on every panel. They always say "Oh don't worry about that" but I got burned once by a rental co. (rhymes with Avis) and have done this ever since. No troubles since!!

Big Gun Doc makes a good suggetion, a camera, as well as the Grump, some kind of documentation, the customers prior knowledge and your documentation wins the argument.

I also always keep customers items in the gunsafe unless I am working with them!

Edited July 28, 2012 by rickybobby

[cleveland]

I have never had a problem and I doubt I ever will, but I figured it's worth asking for tribal knowledge. Being someone that carries a gun, I am already a firm believer in precautionary measures. :-)

[cleveland]

*UPDATE*

TwinOaks was spot on!

I just got off the phone with the BATFE and from a legal standpoint an FFL transfer would be required for taking possession of a firearm for business use. As a holster business you can get an FFL that would be like a gunsmith's FFL and it cost $200 for the first 3 years and $90 for every 3 years period thereafter.

Thanks TwinOak! I never would have considered this if you had not posted your response.

[TwinOaks]

You are most welcome. I've rented 'man cave' space at the local range/shop, and the owner is a very good friend. We see all kinds of issues come up, and this one has been addressed several times. He also declines people leaving guns for modification/repair, requiring them to be present until the work is complete.

I didn't want to state it as Fact, since I've never done the homework on it. When I need the actual gun, I usually arrange to meet the person at the shop and take it to "the back room" and do the down and dirty molding....which I don't want the customer to see (can't give away all the trade secrets).