saddle fit question

[STPENNER]

I have a couple of questions regarding fitting trees for a customer. This guys horses seemed to me to have really muscled shoulders, not much of a wither pocket, and this is where he is having problems with fit. He is having dry spots and is getting sores at the point where the front pads of the bars are sitting on the horse. I have not been building saddles for very long, so perhaps this is a silly question, but the way I see things here is that the problem is the saddles he is using have too much crown in the bottom side of the bar. Is this a common problem? I guess what I'm trying to find out is am I on the right track here or is there something I'm missing. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

Edited September 11, 2008 by STPENNER

[bruce johnson]

One of those things that could be caused by one or several inter-related factors. Anything that concentrates force in one area can be causing this. It can be too much crown to be sure. Also could be bars too narrow and pinching, bars too wide and sitting on the top edge of the front pads, bar angles too narrow and riding high, bar angles too wide and again riding on the top edge. The actual bars themselves may have small barpads and not be enough surface area even if they do fit OK. Too much flare and rounded pads = less area, even if the spread and angles are close. Could be a bridging problem with the bars too flat and the ends digging in. Not enough relief at the edges of the bars. Skirt blocking issues? Might be a rigging issue. The position they place the saddle and cinch it up and then hold it with a breast collar can do all of this. That is not as uncommon as you might suspect. In that case, it may not be the saddle fit at all. Too much or too little padding? Horse's conformation is a factor, along with degree of condition(ing), what the horse is doing for a job, and how the rider sits. A lot of things can go into making this problem. Dry spots may not always be associated with a recognised soring issue. In this case the horse is getting sore in the area related to them, so it is a problem. The "fitters' concentrate on the first part. The "non-fitters" concentrate on the second part. The answer is that addressing both of them gets us closer to being right.

Not too sound like a broken record, but to back up, Dennis Lane's system is a work in progress, but accounts for some of these things. The "S" vs. the "D" card profiles account for bars with more crown for the S's and flatter for the D's. The rock cards help determine the bridging/not bridging when ordering a tree. The cards used to measure the three positions down the back help define the bar spreads and angles. It will get you closer than anything as practical we have had so far. Different tree makers will use the system differently, but it is at least a benchmark to simplify communication between treemakers and customers.

The hard part of any of this is looking at the the saddle they are using and figuring out what the issue is without stripping it down to the bare tree bottom. Some guys can look and feel, others check reverse templates, wear patterns on the woolskin, some stick a hankerchief under the cinched saddle in the middle of the bars - if it pulls out easily, the tree bridges. Look at the hair patterns. Well, there's a lot to think about and no easy answers.

[STPENNER]

Thanks Bruce, Now I'm really confused. Seriously though, thanks for the input. When trying his saddle on several of his horses, The bars did not appear(as best as I could tell) too wide, or too narrow, so this is why I thought about the underside being too round. The horses are all in pretty good shape as he rides pens at a feedlot, and also trains some, so they are not just lawn ornaments. I have Dennis Lanes cards and measured 6 of his horses, I could provide this info here if that would help at all?

Thanks again Bruce, I'll have to look into some of your suggestions and see if they get me closer to a solution.

[daviD A Morris]

I have Dennis Lanes cards and measured 6 of his horses, I could provide this info here if that would help at all?

I'd be interested in seeing what the horses measured. Could you post the results here?

Thanks

dam

Bruce,

That was a good and concise explanation, I like it, you have a very good understanding of it.

[daviD A Morris]

Is the rider using a breast collar to try to hold the saddle in place? I have often seen the situation where a horse has no "wither pockets" at all, in fact the opposite, big bulgy trapezias muscles ( I think it is the trapezias??? ). These are the horses that measure D7, D8 or D9 accross the wither. This is often accompanied by an R12 rock. What happens is the saddle keeps trying to slip back till those front bar pads are in behind that muscle, so then the rider uses a breastcollar to try and hold it forward. What then happens is the saddle slips back as far as it can and the breast collar then forces it into the back of that muscle with ever stride that the horse takes.

Not saying that this is what is actualy happening in your case, just something that I have seen a lot.

dam

[STPENNER]

David,

Thanks for your insight. According to my customer he does not ride with a tight breast collar to keep his saddle in place. Measurements across the withers were as follows. 1 was s6, two were s7, two were d5 and one was d7. There was not much rock on any of the horses, all measuring closest to r6. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[daviD A Morris]

David,

Thanks for your insight. According to my customer he does not ride with a tight breast collar to keep his saddle in place. Measurements across the withers were as follows. 1 was s6, two were s7, two were d5 and one was d7. There was not much rock on any of the horses, all measuring closest to r6. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Given those measurements, I don't believe the problem is as I described above - so forget that! At least from my experience anyway.

Is the same symptom occuring equally on all of those horses?

regards

dam

[jonwatsabaugh]

Well, I'm going to throw in my two cents for what it's worth. After getting my cards out and making a comparison, there is a huge difference between the steepest, s6, and the flattest, d7. Roughly speaking, about 15 degrees. I would ask, as David did, about the consistency of the dry spots. With this difference in angle, I imagine they would appear at varying distances off the centerline of the spine, given the angle variation from horse s6 to horsed7. David, please correct me if I'm interpreting these improperly.

As was mentioned in the original post, the concern of possibly excessive “crown” or convex profile across the pad of the bar is a valid one. I've seen a lot of production trees, and some customs, that couldn't possibly have any more than 2 to 3 square inches of contact given the profile. Mate this with an opposing convex shape and you get a very severe point of pressure. These broader, more heavily muscled horses typically need more flair out the front of the bars also. By flair out I'm considering the length of the bar from the back of the gullet forward, which is actually a part of the rock. I'm not sure how other tree makers define flair. These horses tend to be over-cinched to stabilize the saddle position because of the reduction of the "wedge" effect across the withers, and an ill-fitting tree really accentuates the problem. They need as much bar surface contacting properly as possible. I'm assuming from your post, STPENNER, that you didn't build this guys saddle so you're unaware of the tree that's in his saddle. I would see if he would let you drop the skirts to evaluate the bare tree. Even going a step further and snapping some pix and posting them up here...hopefully we could be of additional help.

Jon

[daviD A Morris]

Is it a saddle that you made?

Where does this rider position his saddle? Some riders tend to place the saddle so that the front-bar-pad is right up on the shoulder blades. - this could cause the soreness that you discribe.

If I were in your position I'd be asking to drop the skirts off for a better look. Check that the screws which fasten the front rigging are not too long and gone right through the tree and out the other side.

And ditto everything that Jon just said.

just trying to help

dam

[STPENNER]

This is not a saddle that I made, he came to me to see if I could figure out the problem and build a saddle that would fit his horses better. I do beleive that part of the problem is that he positions his saddle too far forward as David mentioned. I will see if he will let me drop the skirts and have a look at the tree in the saddle he is using, and if he does I will post some pics here.

Thanks,

Scott

[kaite]

I have a couple of questions regarding fitting trees for a customer. This guys horses seemed to me to have really muscled shoulders, not much of a wither pocket, and this is where he is having problems with fit. He is having dry spots and is getting sores at the point where the front pads of the bars are sitting on the horse. I have not been building saddles for very long, so perhaps this is a silly question, but the way I see things here is that the problem is the saddles he is using have too much crown in the bottom side of the bar. Is this a common problem? I guess what I'm trying to find out is am I on the right track here or is there something I'm missing. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

Hi;

One thing I do to check for fit in an existing saddle is to run my hand, palm down, under the saddle(correctly placed on the horse's back, no pad)front to back. You can find pressure spots this way...also screws sticking out and broken/warped trees.

I found that with this kind of horse(the MOST DIFFICULT, IMO) the top front of the bar needs to be hollowed out more than for any other type. The tree bar and the horse's back need to mirror each other for a good fit.

[Steve Brewer]

I have been watching this topic for a while ,most orders I take are from working cowboys.They are riding 7 to 10 head of horses.It is almost impossible to fit all.Over the years you get bar measurements that will work on most horses.Most orders I never see what they are riding,just ask a few Questions.So far it has worked for me.

Steve

[Hennessy]

i had recently a fellow call who was wearing holes in his three horses shoulders. i believe in a double d rig , standard drop or in skirt and talked him into givin it a go.when i dropped the skirt lo n bhold,one bar bulged like an ostrich egg whilst th other was flat. a 1999 bc trophy saddle he was proud of.i called him n ask do you have to stand up to push down on right stirrup to keep saddle level? why yes he replied,when i gave him a tree to fit up on one of his bald shoulderd ponys, he set it up on th wither on top of his scapula like i did when i was tryin to ride broncs.when i offered my2 cents worth he turned to me n said mah father showed me how to saddle a horse 40 years ago i aint changing now.i believe in allowing that scapula to freely move,a double d rig secures th tub to a spot with less slippage and less angle in latigo pull..also being aware of back problems and seeking solutions are signs of a horseman for sure., i believe a horseman would have at least three saddles to handle an array of ponys, that goes with th work .custom fit trees are for high end horses who will likely grow up n out of it sooner or later good blankets n a few good saddles of varience combined with a conscience, to them ponys would help a heap.adios peter john

[bruce johnson]

Pete,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for jumping right in. Feel free to go back through any old posts and add to them too. Thanks for your insight on this thread, and a situation I think a lot of us deal with. You can have a pretty good tree combination for the horse, and if they set it in the wrong place, it all goes for nothing.

As an aside, if you are the Hennessey who makes the gear - thanks again for joining. Your reputation precedes you. This is an area several of us deal with kind of on the fringes, but the insight of those who have done a bunch is sure welcome. Pretty sure it is a Hennessy bareback rigging one of my best friends had in his bag when he died. His mother got it to me to put in our local cowboy museum. If it is and you are interested, I can get you a picture and the museum info.

[Hennessy]

howdy bruce,yep ahm the guy who made rodeo gear 4 30 yrs. i sold out a year back n now am still scratchin lea eh.i grew up in australia and worked on aussie n english saddles first, came to u.s. to study western saddles.i had a trainer try my double d rig with foam lined skirt with amazing results, he also moved his saddle back again he was amazed, perked me up too. heres another weird bit of opinion,look at the the old saddles they were not blocked onto skirts but were laced on thru strings. over eons of time the bars wallowed down into a blocked appearance which led thinkers to suppose a better fit would evolve if blocking was done. now we have plugged skirts that suggest a 2 layer skirt..i believe two layers of lea in skirt no blocking,this becomes a weight transfer for the load over a bigger area i think that was th reason for skirts anyway. what think you ,look forward to yer thoughts. Sorry to hear of your friends passing yes im interested in knowing more about him.later peter john

[Elton Joorisity]

Welcome aboard Pete! Not to hijack the thread but Pete is the fellow that told me about 14 yrs ago where to get flank trips. So if I have told anyone to order them from D.J. Assoc. you can all thank Mr. Hennessy

[daviD A Morris]

Pete. It will be good to meet you someday. Jeff Freeman says lots of good things about you! I can only assume that you are same person.

dam

Edited October 14, 2008 by daviD A Morris

[Hennessy]

Welcome aboard Pete! Not to hijack the thread but Pete is the fellow that told me about 14 yrs ago where to get flank trips. So if I have told anyone to order them from D.J. Assoc. you can all thank Mr. Hennessy

howdy elton,thank ye fer yer kind words of acknowledgement.i look forward to reading more of your stuff soon eh .ahm not very literate on these machines and thanks to rheu arth ahm typing one handed,left one to boot eh slooooow n spellin like a texalian eh. adios peter john

[Hidemechanic]

Hennessy,

this conversation led me to the opposite issue and I don't want to hijack STPENNER's thread so I'm going to post in General saddle discussion,Hennessy, Orthopedic fit question.

I'm happy to have the rest of you jump in as well.

Sorry for buttin in STPENNER,,GH

Edited November 5, 2008 by Hidemechanic