Making Natural Dyes?

[zaynexpetty]

I meant to say something about that, but completely forgot. As stated above you can't really change the color vinegaroon imparts, you can, however, use the oxidization process to alter the color of other natural dyes. Small amounts of iron (de greased steel wool) added to the dye will both darken the resulting dye and cause color changes in the dye. Adding it during the boiling process is easiest, though it can be added afterwards. When I say a small amount I'm talking less than a 1/4 of a pad of OOOO steel wool to 5 gallons of dye. More can be added, but I've noticed that it tends to mute the untertones and causes the color to look a bit lifeless.

Natural fiber dyeing guides will give an idea of the resulting colors caused by adding iron, but the end result will likely be different due to the iron/tannin reaction within the leather.

Thank you for the plethora of information.

I have experimented with super dark concentrated coffee, highly concentrated black tea, and blackberries. I am going to give black grapes a try tonight, and vinegaroon and the walnut husks a try in the very new future.

I have a question, I have left a scrap of leather in a cold coffee bath for about 30+ hours now and have reached a color that I like. Does it damage the leather or affect the strength at all by leaving it soaking for that long?

I have also come across an article that mentions that you can use salt for berry based dyes, and vinegar for plant based dyes, to act as a mordant. Would salt damage the leather at all by either letting it soak in bath that contained salt for 24+ hours?

With vinegaroon, or even if I was to use vinegar as a mordant with my other dyes, would that make the leather stink of vinegar?

Also, does dipping the leather and allowing it to soak in any of these baths make a difference whether the bath is hot or cold? Basically, I am just trying to avoid damaging the the leather.

Thanks!

Zayne

[anhurset]

There seems to be no need to use a mordant of any type with leather and yes the salts would likely cause a problem with cracking and over drying of the leather. It's best just to ignore the mordants and any info in regards to boiling the material you're dying, in general hot liquids and leather do not mix well.

I'm unsure how long is too long when it comes to immersion dying, most of my pieces stay in for far less than an hour and I've only done extended soaks, 8+ hours, a hand full of times. In fact, it was those extended soaks which turned me off of coffee dyes, long soak times, long drying times and a color range I was just never happy with.

Using vinegar will result in a vinegar odor which will dissipate fairly quickly if the item is left in an open breezy area with plenty of sunlight. If you use vinegar for any reason make sure that you neutralize it with a baking soda and water bath and then rinse with clean water to remove the excess baking soda. I've heard of people venting their vinegaroon until it no longer smells and while I've managed to decrease the odor, I've never been able to completely eliminate it. The smell doesn't really bother me, but I always make sure my customers know what to do to speed up the dissipation.

I rarely immerse leather in liquids above body temperature, as stated above, hot liquid and leather don't mix well. As to the cold, I keep my dye vats in a kitchen with no temperature control (I have a VERY understanding wife), so hot in the summer, cold in the winter. I've noticed no impact on my walnut dyes, but cold temps do affect my vinegaroon to the point that I've he had to start storing it in the living room during the winter. I'm not sure about temps below the low 40s though.

[zaynexpetty]

There seems to be no need to use a mordant of any type with leather and yes the salts would likely cause a problem with cracking and over drying of the leather. It's best just to ignore the mordants and any info in regards to boiling the material you're dying, in general hot liquids and leather do not mix well.

I'm unsure how long is too long when it comes to immersion dying, most of my pieces stay in for far less than an hour and I've only done extended soaks, 8+ hours, a hand full of times. In fact, it was those extended soaks which turned me off of coffee dyes, long soak times, long drying times and a color range I was just never happy with.

Using vinegar will result in a vinegar odor which will dissipate fairly quickly if the item is left in an open breezy area with plenty of sunlight. If you use vinegar for any reason make sure that you neutralize it with a baking soda and water bath and then rinse with clean water to remove the excess baking soda. I've heard of people venting their vinegaroon until it no longer smells and while I've managed to decrease the odor, I've never been able to completely eliminate it. The smell doesn't really bother me, but I always make sure my customers know what to do to speed up the dissipation.

I rarely immerse leather in liquids above body temperature, as stated above, hot liquid and leather don't mix well. As to the cold, I keep my dye vats in a kitchen with no temperature control (I have a VERY understanding wife), so hot in the summer, cold in the winter. I've noticed no impact on my walnut dyes, but cold temps do affect my vinegaroon to the point that I've he had to start storing it in the living room during the winter. I'm not sure about temps below the low 40s though.

I see! I kind of figured so about the mordants concerning leather (maybe because tannins are used in the tanning process of veg tan leather). I have read that you can get black when using black walnut husks, have you had any experience with this? I would prefer avoiding the smell of vinegar all together, if at all possible.

Thanks!

P.S. - It does sound like you have a VERY understanding wife! My girlfriend would not be happy. Luckily I have an ugly basement room that no one ever goes in.

[anhurset]

I've managed VERY dark brown, but never quite black with black walnuts. You can make "iron black" without vinegar, de-oiled iron/steel immersed in water and allowed to rust the slow way. Im talking 1-2 years before you start getting an acceptable black and 5 years for a really good black. No vinegar smell though. Down here in the South you can often fnd 55 gallon drums that have been setting that way for a decade. If you run across something like that and have a chance to salvage the water do it, transfer it to a useable container feed it a bit of iron/steel and top off the water from time to time.

[zaynexpetty]

I've managed VERY dark brown, but never quite black with black walnuts. You can make "iron black" without vinegar, de-oiled iron/steel immersed in water and allowed to rust the slow way. Im talking 1-2 years before you start getting an acceptable black and 5 years for a really good black. No vinegar smell though. Down here in the South you can often fnd 55 gallon drums that have been setting that way for a decade. If you run across something like that and have a chance to salvage the water do it, transfer it to a useable container feed it a bit of iron/steel and top off the water from time to time.

I think I am going to try out the vinegaroon. I have done a little more research about it and about removing the odor, and I feel more confident.

A couple of questions, how exactly do you "burn the oil" out of 0000 steel wool? You mentioned it earlier, and I have read it in all the threads concerning vinegar black.

When you say walnut husks, you mean the green outer part of the walnut, before the shell? Where would I get walnut husks if I don't have/know anyone with a walnut tree?

Thank you so much, by the way. I really can't believe how helpful everyone on leatherworker.net is.

Zayne

Also, If I did want to make some brown dye with walnut

[anhurset]

I've used two methods to remove the oil from steel wool, soaking in acetone and allowing to drip dry and dousing with a flammable liquid (acetone, lighter fluid, denatured alcohol, etc) and then setting it on fire. I've found both methods to be equal when it comes to oil removal from fresh steel wool, in the end I tend to fall back on the soak and drip dry method as the douse and light method can be scary. I pour acetone into a bowl and swirl pads individually ensuring that each are saturated to the point of dripping and then hang them, outside, to dry. Nitrile gloves will protect you from the acetone if you're leery of skin contact. Lighting the solvents on fire can be really sketchy, if you go that route then I really suggest using lighter fluid simply so you can see the flame. Acetone and denatured alcohol both have a tendance to burn with a near invisible flame.

Yes, technically you want the walnut husk, the outer fleshy skin surrounding the nut. You can buy dehydrated black walnut husk from natural dye suppliers and I've heard of people using the walnut cleaning medium sold by ammunition reloading companies, both routes are a bit expensive though. Harvesting yourself is really the cheapest route, I know walnuts can be found in the northeast section of Utah and the Navajo, Hopi and Zuni all are known to have traditionally used walnut dyes so I would assume that they can be found in the four corners region. Utah's a big state though. Butternut, pecan and hickory husks can all be used too, though they do result in slightly lighter colors.

[zaynexpetty]

I've used two methods to remove the oil from steel wool, soaking in acetone and allowing to drip dry and dousing with a flammable liquid (acetone, lighter fluid, denatured alcohol, etc) and then setting it on fire. I've found both methods to be equal when it comes to oil removal from fresh steel wool, in the end I tend to fall back on the soak and drip dry method as the douse and light method can be scary. I pour acetone into a bowl and swirl pads individually ensuring that each are saturated to the point of dripping and then hang them, outside, to dry. Nitrile gloves will protect you from the acetone if you're leery of skin contact. Lighting the solvents on fire can be really sketchy, if you go that route then I really suggest using lighter fluid simply so you can see the flame. Acetone and denatured alcohol both have a tendance to burn with a near invisible flame.

Yes, technically you want the walnut husk, the outer fleshy skin surrounding the nut. You can buy dehydrated black walnut husk from natural dye suppliers and I've heard of people using the walnut cleaning medium sold by ammunition reloading companies, both routes are a bit expensive though. Harvesting yourself is really the cheapest route, I know walnuts can be found in the northeast section of Utah and the Navajo, Hopi and Zuni all are known to have traditionally used walnut dyes so I would assume that they can be found in the four corners region. Utah's a big state though. Butternut, pecan and hickory husks can all be used too, though they do result in slightly lighter colors.

I actually just realized that a family friend has a few black walnut trees. Do you know what time of year is best to harvest the nuts for the husks? I think they are probably still green now, does that matter? Is there a method to drying them out (if necessary).

Thanks.

[anhurset]

Here in TN they start hitting the ground in mass in mid September, as long as they're on the ground they're usable, so just tell the family friend to give you a yell when they're falling. With the soak method it doesn't matter what color they are, green, brown, black, or how rotten they are. You also don't have to dry the husks, just take the nuts, husk and all, pack them into a bucket/barrel/trashcan, cram as many of them in as you can, cover them with water (they'll try the float a bit) and then loosely cover the container. You're just trying the keep debris out, the nuts will need to vent a bit because they are going to ferment and you don't want your container to explode. Check them once or twice a week and top off the water a bit as needed, when the husks start sliding off with gentile hand pressure they're ready, down here in TN it usually takes about two weeks to get to the sloughing point. You've got a choice once you reach this point, you can either go ahead and peel them and make your dye, or you can weight the nuts down, top off the water and wait a bit longer.

If you keep them submerged and don't stir them the tannins will destroy any bacteria in the liquid and create an anaerobic environment, this drastically slows the decay of the nuts while at the same time leaches more tannins and color into the water. This method gives an instant punch to the dye color as there is more color in the initial boil water, it also allows you to ignore the soaking nuts for an extended period of time. The last batch I boiled up was in May of this year, from nuts I harvested in late September of last year. There was no mold, the tannins and anaerobic environment saw to that, and the nuts were no softer nor more fermented than they had been a few weeks after I started the soak.

Regardless of which way you go with the soak you'll need to peel the husks. You'll be doing the next step with your hands, so unless you want to spend the next 7+ days with brown fingers wear some gloves. You're just separating the husk from the nut, it's easy and shouldn't require any tools, though sometimes it's nice to have a knife to create a starting slit. You can toss the nuts if you want, but you'll loose a fair amount of husk meat on the nuts and adding them to the boil seems to make no difference to the dye. I've used husk alone and husk and nut and I've seen no real difference.

At this point I toss everything in an old pillow case, tie it off, toss it into my boil container and add the soak water.

Use that soak water! It's got a massive amount of color and tannins in it and without it your dye will be weak.

When I do small batches (very rare) I'll do the boil in the house, it will put off a smell, not bad, not good, but it can get strong with the multiple hours of boiling. Most of my batches are big though, usually ending with 6-7 gallons of dye, so I do most of my boiling outside, in a washtub, over a fire. Whichever way you go you're looking at several hours (minimum of 3, but more likely 4-5) of boiling. It's hard to describe what you're looking for in the dye, it needs to be thicker than water but not really syrupy. You can test small amounts while you're cooking, just make sure it's around body temperature before applying to leather. Once you think it's done let it cool, remove the sack of husks (set it in a separate container, it's full of dye and you don't want to waste it) and strain as you decant. The straining doesn't have to be super fine, I use a little wire mesh kitchen strainer, you're just trying to get any big chunks. Find some way to suspend that sack of husks so you can drain the rest of the liquid from it, squeeze it out too, that's the ambrosia of dye trapped in there don't loose it. Add your alcohol, a minimum of 1 cup alcohol/2 quarts dye. The last I read Chuck Burrows had stopped adding alcohol to his dyes and swore that it upped the color. I haven't tried it yet, but if Burrows swears by it then it must be worth a shot.

[zaynexpetty]

Here in TN they start hitting the ground in mass in mid September, as long as they're on the ground they're usable, so just tell the family friend to give you a yell when they're falling. With the soak method it doesn't matter what color they are, green, brown, black, or how rotten they are. You also don't have to dry the husks, just take the nuts, husk and all, pack them into a bucket/barrel/trashcan, cram as many of them in as you can, cover them with water (they'll try the float a bit) and then loosely cover the container. You're just trying the keep debris out, the nuts will need to vent a bit because they are going to ferment and you don't want your container to explode. Check them once or twice a week and top off the water a bit as needed, when the husks start sliding off with gentile hand pressure they're ready, down here in TN it usually takes about two weeks to get to the sloughing point. You've got a choice once you reach this point, you can either go ahead and peel them and make your dye, or you can weight the nuts down, top off the water and wait a bit longer.

If you keep them submerged and don't stir them the tannins will destroy any bacteria in the liquid and create an anaerobic environment, this drastically slows the decay of the nuts while at the same time leaches more tannins and color into the water. This method gives an instant punch to the dye color as there is more color in the initial boil water, it also allows you to ignore the soaking nuts for an extended period of time. The last batch I boiled up was in May of this year, from nuts I harvested in late September of last year. There was no mold, the tannins and anaerobic environment saw to that, and the nuts were no softer nor more fermented than they had been a few weeks after I started the soak.

Regardless of which way you go with the soak you'll need to peel the husks. You'll be doing the next step with your hands, so unless you want to spend the next 7+ days with brown fingers wear some gloves. You're just separating the husk from the nut, it's easy and shouldn't require any tools, though sometimes it's nice to have a knife to create a starting slit. You can toss the nuts if you want, but you'll loose a fair amount of husk meat on the nuts and adding them to the boil seems to make no difference to the dye. I've used husk alone and husk and nut and I've seen no real difference.

At this point I toss everything in an old pillow case, tie it off, toss it into my boil container and add the soak water.

Use that soak water! It's got a massive amount of color and tannins in it and without it your dye will be weak.

When I do small batches (very rare) I'll do the boil in the house, it will put off a smell, not bad, not good, but it can get strong with the multiple hours of boiling. Most of my batches are big though, usually ending with 6-7 gallons of dye, so I do most of my boiling outside, in a washtub, over a fire. Whichever way you go you're looking at several hours (minimum of 3, but more likely 4-5) of boiling. It's hard to describe what you're looking for in the dye, it needs to be thicker than water but not really syrupy. You can test small amounts while you're cooking, just make sure it's around body temperature before applying to leather. Once you think it's done let it cool, remove the sack of husks (set it in a separate container, it's full of dye and you don't want to waste it) and strain as you decant. The straining doesn't have to be super fine, I use a little wire mesh kitchen strainer, you're just trying to get any big chunks. Find some way to suspend that sack of husks so you can drain the rest of the liquid from it, squeeze it out too, that's the ambrosia of dye trapped in there don't loose it. Add your alcohol, a minimum of 1 cup alcohol/2 quarts dye. The last I read Chuck Burrows had stopped adding alcohol to his dyes and swore that it upped the color. I haven't tried it yet, but if Burrows swears by it then it must be worth a shot.

How much water would you suggest putting in the container for the pre-soak? level/a couple of inches above the water? or does it not matter?

Also, when doing the pre-soak, is temperature a factor when letting them ferment? Would it be okay if I left them outside in 60-80 degree weather? Would it make a difference if it were in the sunlight vs. shade?

I just filled a large pot half full with walnuts and put water over them and they are all floating, should I weigh them down so they are completely submerged?

Sorry for the plethora of questions, I just want to make sure I'm getting this right.

Thanks again,

Zayne

Edited September 2, 2014 by zaynexpetty

[anhurset]

The water level can vary a bit, when I check and refill every couple of days I try to take the water to just over the nuts, but level with or slightly below is okay. Fill the pot FULL with nuts (leave an inch or so of space at the top of the pot), the more nuts you put in the fewer will float as the weight of the nuts on top will keep the lower levels submerged. I've never really experimented with temperature during the soak, I usually just fill a couple of empty kitty litter buckets and set them on the porch, but this being a fermentation/rotting process I would assume that warmer temperatures would speed up the process.