Bookbinding And Hot-Foil Stamping Questions

[Wilshire]

Wasn't sure where to post this, so here it is. Please move to an appropriate section as necessary/

I have spent a lot of time trying to work out how to re-bind a book. It started with looking for direct quotes for the whole thing, but with numbers like $500-$1000+ per book, I decided on another route.... DIY.

Since then, I've been trying to nail down each piece of the project. Once I have everything lined up, I'm going to start.

I want to recreate this book's dustjacket: http://i.imgur.com/4ufHxXn.jpg

In leather. So I'm looking for dark grey to black leather, and silver colored foil.

As it stands, I believe I have a good book binder who will help me re-bind my book (The Darkness that Comes Before by R Scott Bakker, for any that are curious). I need to supply the leather, so thats the 2nd step. I recently found out that I have a Tandy's in a city near me, and also that this is a great place to start. I have yet to stop in one yet... Anyway, if for some reason that doesn't work out, I'll be ording leather from http://www.hollanders.com/ . Unless, of course, you fine people have better suggestions (please!).

The main thing here is trying to keep costs down without sacrificing much quality.

After the picking the leather, and getting it bound, I need to get the artwork done. This looks like its going to be my biggest expense. For the cover(s), I will be removing the english text you see on the front, and be left with just the art/script. I have done the legwork here and have a nice clean black/white file (its a .psd from photoshop). I need to get a die made, and from the quotes that I have gotten, it looks like Owosso is going to be the cheapest (<$100 for an 8.5x5.5x1/4 inch magnesium die).

Next, and this is part I am stuck on currently, I need a way to do the actual hot-foil stamping. It seems that since I've cut out all the profit margins for anyone (kind of the point, saves me money), and email people asking them if they would take a finished book and a finished die and stamp my book... well lets say I haven't got a lot of positive responses.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about hot-foil stamping my book?

TL;DR version

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might go about hot-foil stamping my book?

Does anyone have any suggestions on where to buy good bookbinding leather, and what questions should I be asking someone if I end up in a leather store like Tandy's?

Is there a decent way to jerry-rig your own hot-foil machine? It seems the main thing is just something to hold the die, and a heating unit. How hard could it be?

Thanks for the help.

ps: if this goes well, I'll be doing the same thing with the rest of the trilogy

http://i.imgur.com/oh8YaPz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/x9CAoG4.jpg

Edited January 27, 2015 by Wilshire

[thefanninator]

http://www.talasonline.com

They've got bookbinding supplies. Tandy's probably won't have much for this kind of project.

Good luck. I don't think any of that stuff is cheap.

Post pics if/when you complete it.

Edited January 27, 2015 by thefanninator

[25b]

Do NOT go to talas.com!! The correct site is talasonline.com.

The "other" site is the type of site infamous for installing malware...just fyi...

Edited January 27, 2015 by 25b

[thefanninator]

Sorry!

http://www.talasonline.com

[Wilshire]

Haha thanks for the head's up. I have heard of Talas, and thought they where to expensive back when I first looked, though now that I spent some more time there, it seems I might be able to get something nice.

Certainly none of it is cheap, which is one of the reasons why I haven't really done anything yet, even though I've been researching for about a year now. I don't want to start and find out I am missing something, or have waste time/money on inferior materials. Just a lot of steps along the way and I want to have it mapped out and be at least somewhat confident that I will end up with something decent.

[thefanninator]

How about Siegel...

http://www.siegelleather.com

Edited January 27, 2015 by thefanninator

[TwinOaks]

This makes me think of felling a tree because you only need 1 toothpick.

[Wilshire]

Alas, in this case it is far more affordable to take the whole tree and fashion a toothpick from it, than it would otherwise be to acquire the finished toothpick. But, yes, I agree, I too have often gotten his feeling.

Thank you for the advice about the leather. Anyone have thoughts regarding hot-foil stamping?

Specifically, I am wondering if there are non-metal alternatives for the die. I have access to a nice laser cutter, free of charge, that can do acrylics and silicons (and wood). Anyone know if there are any suitable materials that would be used for super short run purposes ( <10 uses)? Magnesium seems like it can be good for upwards of 1000 uses, and I certainly don't need that many.

[evandailey]

I have bought goat skins from hidehouse.com and used them successfully in bookbinding projects. Their prices were about half any that i found at sites designated as bookbinding suppliers. Bookbinders can be a bit of a elitist crowd and make claims that ONLY particular products (hides, glues papers, etc.) should be used. In some cases this is true, in some cases they just don't know that the same thing is often available from other sources, just marketed for different purposes.

I can't help you on the hot foil stamping, sorry.

[Wilshire]

It doesn't look like they are currently selling it in a color that I would prefer, but thanks for the heads up.

Are their specific search terms you might look for when seeking leather for bookbinding when looking around non-bookbinding sites or locations? I'm curious if its just named differently from one place to the next.

[Matt T]

This makes me think of felling a tree because you only need 1 toothpick.

+1. Unless this is something you enjoy doing, or are going to be doing on a regular basis in the future, I would have the job done by a professional. We aren't just talking about cost of materials here; you will invest a lot of time and make mistakes before getting it right.

[Wilshire]

Odd, I kind of figured leatherworker.net would be a place where people were, I dunno, encouraged to do some leather working? Now 2 people have told me to just buy it, and I'm sensing some disillusionment around the corner.

Anyway, like I initially responded, the analogy is not applicable. The cost of doing it myself is at least half the cost, if not more (more discounted, less expensive, take your pick). Cutting down a tree, assuming you have to at least buy the saw and/or axe, would be far more expensive than buying a 25 cent pack of toothpicks.

Besides, I think it sounds like fun, as should be evident by the amount of time I've spent just researching the thing. Time and mistakes are an obvious 'duh', though saying so potentially seems abrasive, so I'll abstain.

Thanks for those that have offered some help, I've learned a lot. As for you nay-sayers, carry on, you'll not dissuade me.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Wilshire

[TwinOaks]

The reason for the comment about the toothpick is that when looking at the material and equipment cost of doing this, I doubt you'll even break even when compared to having someone with experience do it. You intoned in your first post that you wanted this done as inexpensively as possible.....and get good results. The two are not mutually exclusive, but it's rare to have Good and Cheap

together. If this is a '3 book only' project, I think you'll find the non-recoverable expenses growing rapidly.

And why tell you this? Because I've seen many people get into this craft /trade and make the comment "I wish somebody had

told me how much all this was gonna cost", then sell their barely used tools at a loss.

Hot stamping is going to require a way apply controlled heat to a plate, then evenly apply several hundred pounds of force spread over that plate. For small stamp designs you could use a heat gun and arbor press...for larger things you might need something like a clicker. Can you 'chop' the design into smaller segments? Maybe use negative space to create the break in the pattern?

[thefanninator]

Have you checked Amazon for books on bookbinding?

Also a quick search on Google and you'll find several classes offered in bookbinding. Perhaps not in your area. But they are in the couple hundred to thousands of dollars. If this might be more than 3 books you might consider a class.

Edit: Just re-read that you have a bookbinder to help you...

Good luck.

Edited January 29, 2015 by thefanninator

[Northmount]

I'd consider using a laser instead of hot foil stamping for this size a project. Most hot foil presses have a small type box/platen. About 2" x 3.5".

Tom

[Wilshire]

@TwinOaks

With the help of the bookbinder and free use of her tools, the costs are kept far lower than the cost of the finished product. However, the more I learn, the closer things are coming to breaking even. After this one, I'll have to decide if its worth buying tools myself and making a hobby out of it. We'll see. Thank you for the clarity .

Side note, any chance you could ballpark the pressure? Several hundred is more than I would have guessed, but again, i have no idea what im talking about.

@thefanninator

I spent a bit of time looking, but the pretty much, like you suggested, the price is too high for one book. I would consider it if I end up enjoying the process.

Does anyone around here sell tools, used or otherwise, that would be a good buy rather than going to a store or ordering online. Probably looking too many steps ahead at this point, since I might never want to buy one, but I figured I'd ask.

I'd consider using a laser instead of hot foil stamping for this size a project. Most hot foil presses have a small type box/platen. About 2" x 3.5".

Tom

Please explain. If there is any way to leverage the laser I have access too, I would really love too.

Can you elaborate on how I might use the laser? Something like branding the leather with it rather than using foil?

I'd really prefer to use foil, I want the silver-on-grey-leather look. Could the laser itself be enough to heat the foil and 'bond' it to the leather?

[Northmount]

With a laser, you just burn/brand the leather. You won't get silver.

Tom

[Wilshire]

Damn, well thanks for the suggestion. I'll save that for later if ever I need it.

[TwinOaks]

The larger the area, the more pressure you'll need. Take a look at Harbor Freight and you'll find an arbor press that will do 1 ton, and it has about a 1 sq inch ram. That's enough to hot stamp a maker's mark on dry leather. Compare your proposed stamp size and extrapolate. there is a video by Ian Atchison showing him heat stamping leather with an arbor press....you might check it out.

[Wilshire]

Any links to anything you mentioned, especially the video?

I plugged it into youtube and not nil. Google was not helpful either regarding Ian Atchison and leather.

Also, its tough to extrapolate with one bullet point . 1:1 ratio sqin:pressure, scaled linearly to infinity seems unlikely. Why so much force? I thought the point was to get the foil to release onto the leather. Its got adhesives and release agents on it.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Wilshire

[25b]

Any links to anything you mentioned, especially the video?

I plugged it into youtube and not nil. Google was not helpful either regarding Ian Atchison and leather.

That's because his name is ATKINSON...not "Atchison".

Here's the link to his youtube channel...

https://www.youtube.com/user/satansbarber

...and yes, spelling makes a big difference when searching on youtube and google.

Edited January 29, 2015 by 25b

[TwinOaks]

... I'm blaming the spell checker for that one

[Jwalker]

theres at least 1 bookbinding group on Facebook

[stephaniebrown]

If you have the die, I could do the hot stamping for you for very cheap. I'll send you a message to see if you're still working on your project.