Let's talk about Saddle Riggings

[andalusians2]

Could this saddle just be placed too far forward by the owner? The cinch looks too close behind the elbow.

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I have a saddle made for my Andalusian.

[AZThunderPony]

Could this saddle just be placed too far forward by the owner? The cinch looks too close behind the elbow.

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I have a saddle made for my Andalusian.

quote name='AZThunderPony' date='Jun 4 2007, 04:25 PM' post='5217']

Someone please correct me but isn't David Ganedak making saddles to fit more forward like that to set the rider into the sweet spot? Isnt that the fit he is after? Ity seems to me on another thread that he lays this theory out. Am I wrong?

S

Another thought on difference between Andalusian build and Spanish Mustang build is that the SM becomes more round like a barrel right after the elbow. This leave little space for setting the cinch back. Where as the Andy has more "Girth" space behind the elbow before the ribs extend out. Andalusian2... am I wrong? The common denomnator is that they both have deep well muscled withers where the neck comes down fromthe poll deep into the back as one contiuous line. Both have round well muscled backs. The SM is noarrower than the Andy though.

Just some thoughts

S

[SMUK]

Ok, I am a Newbie here, living in the UK and have some of the few Spanish Mustangs in Europe. I initiallly got around the saddle-fit problem by going treeless. Now my stallion is 5 and I have started doing endurance and putting some serious miles on him. His shape has changed and the treeless has started slipping back too far, due to his musceling up in the shoulders, so my quest for the perfect saddle has started...it is like :deadhorse: (love these smilies!!! ) I went to the expence to buy 3 Steele fit forms, and low and behold 2 of them were a passable fit...

The first was the modified QH bar

The second is the PW tree which is made for a walking horse

I went and had a saddle made on a PW equi-flex tree, but it only came in a 16" (too big for me, I had more than a hands width in front of me and felt I was sitting too far back on my horse). The rigging was 3 way (no other options other than enduru balanced), but 7/8 was the "smallest setting" Jim needs full rigging position to keep the girth in the girth grove, which is pretty much right beneath the end of his shoulder blade. So if I had the girth in the right place, the saddle was too far forward and didn't sit right. The other thing I should have done was to have the seat ground down and the stirrups set back...an expensive mistake...

being in the Uk I unfortuanetly don't have the option to have saddles sent to try out.

Right now I am looking at the GEN II Tucker trail...

would be interested to hear what the experts think of the fit of the fit forms...

many thanks

martine

[Go2Tex]

Martine, the problem with those Steele Equifit forms is that they only apply to Steele trees. Not too many custom saddle makers use them,.... just a wild guess there. Although, I suppose you could ask and see if one would. Then you could have the rigging and ground seat custom made for you.

As for judging the fit in those pictures, I wouldn't even try to make a guess. The best way to judge the fit is to powder your horse's back, then wet the bottom surface of the forms, place the form on the horse's back and pull it back off again. Look at the transfer of powder to the form and check for gaps.

Remember though, cinching will change the fit because it will pull the tree down into the back and, of course, the shape of the back will change when the horse moves, thus causing the problems with slipping, etc. Therefore, placing a form on the back only tells you part of the story.

Here's my suggestion. Take tracings of your horse's back. Send those tracings to a good tree maker and have him tell you what tree to use. Then, have a saddle built on that tree maker's tree. Of course, that saddle might only fit that one horse perfectly, and of course, only at that particular time in it's life and that particular time of year and conditioning.

Moral of the story is, you need only fit the type of horse generally well, for most of the time you use it and for the purpose you use it. When it comes to saddle fit, that really is about the best way to approach it.

Good luck.

[andalusians2]

Someone please correct me but isn't David Ganedak making saddles to fit more forward like that to set the rider into the sweet spot? Isnt that the fit he is after? Ity seems to me on another thread that he lays this theory out. Am I wrong?

S

Another thought on difference between Andalusian build and Spanish Mustang build is that the SM becomes more round like a barrel right after the elbow. This leave little space for setting the cinch back. Where as the Andy has more "Girth" space behind the elbow before the ribs extend out. Andalusian2... am I wrong? The common denomnator is that they both have deep well muscled withers where the neck comes down fromthe poll deep into the back as one contiuous line. Both have round well muscled backs. The SM is noarrower than the Andy though.

Just some thoughts

Hmmmmm. Some new food for thought! My Andy is certainly bigger in size than the SM, but her saddle seems to slide forward into that space just behind the elbow. I always thought that was because the tree doesn't have enough flare. It could well be bridging some even though I can't feel this. This forum has been great in getting me to think before I buy. Wish I could figure out how to post a picture!

Thanks sandy

[AZThunderPony]

Sandy,

To add a picture. You need to first upload it to Photobucket or a similar program that will create hyperlinks for you. If you have two windows open it will work easiest. One for photobucket, and one with your text editor for your post here on the forum. At the top of your text editor you can see the tree symbol (picture with tree) In Photobucket select the bottom link style by copying it, then go back to your editor to click on the picture icon. A window will come up that you can paste the link into. Then hit okay.

Sounds complicated but actually very simple.

If you are unfamiliar with Photobucket let me know via email and I will try to walk you through it. Its very easy.

Hope this helps,

Susan

[Alan Bell]

David, I looked at the pdf and am not sure I follow the logic. You have the double ring as having the pull come from the front and rear girth yet on the drop plate the pull is only on the front girth. In rigging (concert, theatre, and construction) this is a bridle (if only the front girth was used) Pythagoras figured out the weight ratio (a squared plus b squared equal c squared) to show how much of the pull would be transfered to the back girth. Basically, you can take the distance measurements and they are the same as the weight or pounds of pull. So the distance from the rigging plate attachements front and rear squared plus the distance from the front attachment to the rigging plate squared equals the distance from the rear attachment to the rigging plate squared and that is the amount of pull that is transfered to the rear making a single rigged drop plate saddle pull just about evenly front to rear, This plus the addition of a rear girth strap would logically make the flat plate rig ride with the most amount of evenness as the horse moves and transfers weight through momentum. Your drawing gives the impression that the flat plate transfers force forward when in fact it transfers the force closer to straight down at the point of attachment especially if the angle between the point of attachment and the rigging plate is less that 45 degrees. This starts to get into trigonometry but I actually have an arena rigging manual that will let me calculate the amount of force if needed.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Cuz, all I ever had, Redemption Songs, these songs of freedom, Redemption Songs

Bob Marley

[Go2Tex]

Sandy,

To add a picture. You need to first upload it to Photobucket or a similar program that will create hyperlinks for you. ......

Actually, you don't need to do any of that fancy stuff to add a pic. Just use the simple "file attachments" field at the bottom of your reply window, use "browse" to find it on your hard drive, then click "add this attachment", then click where it says to add it to post. Not a problem.

See?

Thank you Go2Tex for the picture explanation. It's actually better to upload directly from your computer rather than to use a third party pic service like Photobucket, because the pages will load faster for our dial up visitors.~~Johanna

PS That is a beautiful saddle, but the pic is small. I would love to see a larger picture. Is it your work? Wow!

[andalusians2]

LlKE THIS???

Hi Guys. Sorry the attachment is so large. Now I just have to learn how to make them smaller. Please have patience.

Sandy

[David Genadek]

Allen,

I just presented those as configurations. The arrows do not represent force vectors. They are just where you would tie them on. The pictures below are just examples of those configurations in a form people are used to seeing. It is a hand out I use at clinics.

I believe what you mentioned here is the proof that when you pull on the point of the triangle the force will be directed to where the area of the triangle is divided in half. I agree fully with you. At the same time the other two configurations are valid also when properly used. Personally I am with you and all my rigging is of the triangular configuration and I also include rear rigging. However in the past the triangular rigging was used a lot with no rear rigging. They were called single rigged saddles in the old catalogs. The important concept here is exactly what you described which means a flat plate rigging is not just a couple of big hunks of leather that you slap on but actually a feat of engineering that the saddle maker should be aware of with a clear understanding of the consequences of the shapes that are created.

David Genadek

David, I looked at the pdf and am not sure I follow the logic. You have the double ring as having the pull come from the front and rear girth yet on the drop plate the pull is only on the front girth. In rigging (concert, theatre, and construction) this is a bridle (if only the front girth was used) Pythagoras figured out the weight ratio (a squared plus b squared equal c squared) to show how much of the pull would be transfered to the back girth. Basically, you can take the distance measurements and they are the same as the weight or pounds of pull. So the distance from the rigging plate attachements front and rear squared plus the distance from the front attachment to the rigging plate squared equals the distance from the rear attachment to the rigging plate squared and that is the amount of pull that is transfered to the rear making a single rigged drop plate saddle pull just about evenly front to rear, This plus the addition of a rear girth strap would logically make the flat plate rig ride with the most amount of evenness as the horse moves and transfers weight through momentum. Your drawing gives the impression that the flat plate transfers force forward when in fact it transfers the force closer to straight down at the point of attachment especially if the angle between the point of attachment and the rigging plate is less that 45 degrees. This starts to get into trigonometry but I actually have an arena rigging manual that will let me calculate the amount of force if needed.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Bob Marley

[David Genadek]

where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? The last place I ever put a girth is in the so-called girth channel. Anatomically that makes no sense to me.

How about fitting a SM for varied disciplines? From my perspective the horse’s biomechanics do not change from one discipline to another only the humans costume changes. The bottom of a saddle has no need to change from discipline to discipline there for there would be no need to make any changes to the rigging either.

David Genadek

Amazing David, Great observation of the round ribcage to narrowed but deep girth that is a norm on most Spanish Mustangs. But not necessarily normal for BLM mustangs.

I have used a packers cinch many time with my SM's to save them from gall and sore ribs. My question is why not make a tree that allows for a rigiging that hangs naturally where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? I undertstand that as a norm there are few SM owners running around ordering specialized trees. But when one does arrive on the scene it would be nice that tree makers and saddle makers would have a notion what type of tree, rigging and other details are necesasary to fit that owners horse.

Spanish Mustangs are a very versatile horse, How about fitting a SM for varied diciplines? Working Cow or Ranch Horse Competitions, Endurance, Jumping, Gaiting, Dressage, Cutting, Barrels and much more??? What about fitting one horse for all of the above? Possible? Or 100 SM's for any one sport?

Another question how deos the rigging affect or how should it lay in relationship to different Sports?

S

[bruce johnson]

David.

Looking at your saddles shown by Jane in post 15 and 16 in this thread. Is this girth placed in the area you are referring to the "girth channel"? If it is not, would you place it forward or back from here? Is the rear cinch supposed to be hobbled this close to the front cinch? Looks like it would tend to catch spurs, I have enough spur tracks on my back cinches as it is. LOL. I think you mentioned somewhere that your saddles stay in place for roping. Would you rope with this rigging setup? Does the pull and vectors you are talking about keep the backend of this saddle down when roped out of, and out of the shoulders? Obviously Jane is not riding a roping/ranching saddle, but how do you (or do you) change the rigging for the ranch horse?

Obviously, most of us don't cinch one like this, which the reason for these questions. I am just having trouble figuring how splitting the triangle for a saddle that the horn is used for more than decoration is holding things as or more securely than both cinches sitting vertically and holding both ends of the tree down.

[SMUK]

To me the saddle looks too far forward on Whoodie also, sitting right on top of the shoulders, but the girth is sitting in the right place for a Spanish Mustang. If it is moved back to sit behind the shoulder blades to allow the free movement we all want, then the girth would sit too far back. I think that has been Susan's and my point all along. A lot of these horses need full rigging position, or at least adjustable, ie Sam Stag. But then if the saddle is moved back behind the shoulder, would they end up sitting too far back on the horse, and not in the "sweet spot"??

I took tracings of my horse yesterday and a couple of side-on shots. You can see where the shoulder ends, and his girth grove is pretty much straight down from the end of the shoulder, so the rigging position should be right under the fork in my opinion...

Here also a picture from behind, illustrating the shape of the horse from above

Edited July 18, 2007 by SMUK

[SMUK]

The last place I ever put a girth is in the so-called girth channel. Anatomically that makes no sense to me.

Why is that?

If we compare girthing a horse to tying a leather belt around our own chest tightly, where would you put it for the least discomfort? I bet you would put it right under your arm pits, or just an inch below, for maximum comfort. If you put it further down, you restrict your breathing and start to bruise or even crack your ribs. The same goes for a horse, though there is a little more room for error. If the horse has a little condition, the girth will slide naturally into the so- called girth channel. If the saddle is designd to sit just behind the shoulder, and the rigging doesn't fall to meet the girth groove, the straps will likely be pulled forward at an angle to sit there, or the horse will be uncomfortable and the saddle unstable if the girth sits too far back. If the horse is very fit and has no belly, the girth will slide further back, but then it is in danger of also sliding too far back. That is where the breast plate comes in. Where a good tree should always stay in the right position, adding weight of rider and movements of the horse, by the laws of physics a rigid tree will move, if the girth is not holding it in the right position.

Just my theory on all this

[mulefool]

Yes I would like to know that, too. The cinch is just naturally going to want to ride in that area. Maybe you could just elaborate on that a little.

[Alan Bell]

While we are waiting for David's response I just wanted to comment on part of Bruce's question. In roping we want the force to transfer from the critter to the horse insuch a way that the horse easily transfers it to his feet. Hence the low, stout horn on a Wade. The reason a triangle shaped rig ie a 'flat plate' rigging is better for the job at hand than a double rig is because of the way the rigging pulls down the back end of a saddle with only the front girth attached. The rear girth igenerally has an inch or two of slack in it. Even if the horse is cinched up snug in the rear, once we start riding, that changes. The triangle or flat plate is transfering some of the pull, from our tightening the front girth, rearward or in other words when we tighten the front strap we are pulling the front and the rear of the saddle down at the same time. Try setting a saddle on a stand and pushing or pulling down on the rig plates on a flat plate saddle and have someone try and lift the rear of the saddle then try it with a double rigged saddle. Remember only apply force to the front girth and you will see. I think they should have done this on that kids show 'Wierd Science' to prove Pythagoras' Theorem!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Yes my friend, They set me free again

Bob Marley

[bruce johnson]

Alan,

You bring up a point that I was confusing, and am still confused on. I am referring to any type rigging not just a double dropped dee ring. I think I understand the lines of force behind the drop plate, and understand what you are saying about the double rigged with no counterbalance. About the only dropped dees I do now are on some straight roping saddles. What my confusion is (and thanks for clarifying it) , wouldn't the back cinch hanging straight down in conjunction with a triangular front rigging (plate) do a better job than the same rigging with the back cinch angling forward and hobbled to the front cinch, as shown in Jane's picture. Kind of a long winded question, but only way I can think of it. Is there a counterbalance strap on the front ring? Or is the back cinch the counterbalance strap and the third leg of the triangle? I guess I was assuming that there was a counterbalance already there. If so, then the back cinch is duplicating the same or similar function.

Another factor I see with hobbling the back cinch forward. My calf-roping back cinches run 6-8" wide in the belly. If I angled them forward, I would only have the front edge hitting the horse. Even with a 3" back cinch, unless it is contoured, or the buckles hung off square, it probably wouldn't have full contact either.

Also type of roping, how broke the horse is, how big the wreck is gonna be, and is the clock running all factor into how tight you are going to get and how fast. I know my horn on a low TM tree with me forward, hanging off the right side, or if I was younger or any good, already off, is creating more torque when a 230# calf hits the end. It is different cranking down on a #4 sitting on a Bowman or Olin Young on the heels of a quick steer turned, and you are sitting square and back when everything comes tight. Different yet heeling calves at a walk or trot in a branding pen and slipping on a mulehide post. These also affect what kind of back cinch, how tight the back cinch is pulled, and how long it stays pulled.

The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

[AZThunderPony]

The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

OKay I am really out of my league here... that said... are Davids saddles designed for roping? Somehow correct me if I am wrong, but I didnt get that impression. I'd be afraid of the thing coming over the horses head.

Forgive me Daivd, I'm not picking on you. It's just this whole concept you have is foreign to me. I would love to see some pics of horses performing in these saddles.

S

[bruce johnson]

Susan,

Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking without looking. On the thread regarding the Nikkel's trees, David was telling Rod that if Rod changed the bar patterns by incorporating twist into Rod's patterns, he could stabilize the rear of the saddle during roping. Sorry about that to all involved.

I thought I saw somewhere that David does make ranch saddles. On his website he shows a Wade with a mulehide wrapped horn. That is where I got idea of his saddles being roped out of. The site also lists a rope strap as an option.

[Alan Bell]

Well, (still waiting David's response) the plot thickens! Following in the lines of and somewhay reading between what David has written in previous post and looking at the picture posted by my friend Jane we arrive at a confused place. David stated that he always places "al la Jineta" and "a la brida" as formost concepts (I am paraphrasing here). These concepts although coming to us from Spain actually are the difference between the Muslims and Christians and their style of horseback combat. A la Jineta refers to the North African Moors that ruled Spain for 700 yrs and the phrase is still used in Latin America to describe a person that is brave, agile, and daring especially on horseback. In N America it was adapted to working cattle from horseback by the Conquistadors once they had nothing and noone else to conquer. While the riders style may remain the same across the two different activities (warfare and cow work) the purpose and use of the saddle is quite different. These difference necessitated fundamental design changes most notable in the addition of the saddle horn. Maybe David can help us out by elaborating a bit on how he uses these concepts in his tree design and what effect, if any, it has had on the different roles the saddle plays between warfare and cow work. If we are building for 'a la Jineta' riding in regards to warfare we do not have to worry about the effects a 600# steer will have on our saddle, the rigging, the saddle placement or the tree in the same regards as if we are building for 'a la Jineta' riding AND cow work. I think that is where Bruce is heading and you can add to this if I am leaving things out. This is really cool stuff and being the analytical goober that I am I really enjoy tossing these concepts around.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Life is one big road with a lot of signs; So when you're trodding through the ruts don't you complicate your mind

Bob Marley

[GAP]

Very iinteresting thread here! Took me a couple of days to kinda read, digest and compare my thoughts. Wish I had caught earlier discussions? I'm spending way too much time reading on here as it is though.

I'm wanting to hear more about these trees too.... from my perspective I don't see one staying put. But I don't know the riders, makers, or anything else about them. I t looks like they were just sat on the horse and cinched down without giving it a wiggle and push back you do when saddling up?

I'd like to see some bar pictures? Is there any? And maybe a tree setting on a horse?

I'm trying to understand why so far forward?

Like it was said: I can't see one used like that in ranch work. If your horse is facing the rope, it looks like you're bars are gonna be pulled down into the shoulders. In fact... I can't picture one being used like that, period? But I've never tried to fit one to a single horse either.

Just here to learn, no more no less

.................

My own use... I love using a 7/8 plate rig. I've used one for a long time... of hard use, every day, long circles, ropeing big cattle in not good conditions on some not so good horses, as well as had instances dragging calves to the fire all day long where stake ropes were used. Ropers are simply hard to come by at some places anymore. They stay put good on most, transfer the pull well, allow as much freedom as you want, and wear well. Much better than any ring or dee rigged saddle I've had. Gotta admit that I've only had a couple though.

When somebody asks what I suggest... it's either a plate or skirt rig 7/8, just depends on how they ride. Never have been convinced of using a skirt rig in the conditions above. But I do love 'em otherwise!.