Let's talk about Saddle Riggings

[Alan Bell]

While we are waiting for David's response I just wanted to comment on part of Bruce's question. In roping we want the force to transfer from the critter to the horse insuch a way that the horse easily transfers it to his feet. Hence the low, stout horn on a Wade. The reason a triangle shaped rig ie a 'flat plate' rigging is better for the job at hand than a double rig is because of the way the rigging pulls down the back end of a saddle with only the front girth attached. The rear girth igenerally has an inch or two of slack in it. Even if the horse is cinched up snug in the rear, once we start riding, that changes. The triangle or flat plate is transfering some of the pull, from our tightening the front girth, rearward or in other words when we tighten the front strap we are pulling the front and the rear of the saddle down at the same time. Try setting a saddle on a stand and pushing or pulling down on the rig plates on a flat plate saddle and have someone try and lift the rear of the saddle then try it with a double rigged saddle. Remember only apply force to the front girth and you will see. I think they should have done this on that kids show 'Wierd Science' to prove Pythagoras' Theorem!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Yes my friend, They set me free again

Bob Marley

[bruce johnson]

Alan,

You bring up a point that I was confusing, and am still confused on. I am referring to any type rigging not just a double dropped dee ring. I think I understand the lines of force behind the drop plate, and understand what you are saying about the double rigged with no counterbalance. About the only dropped dees I do now are on some straight roping saddles. What my confusion is (and thanks for clarifying it) , wouldn't the back cinch hanging straight down in conjunction with a triangular front rigging (plate) do a better job than the same rigging with the back cinch angling forward and hobbled to the front cinch, as shown in Jane's picture. Kind of a long winded question, but only way I can think of it. Is there a counterbalance strap on the front ring? Or is the back cinch the counterbalance strap and the third leg of the triangle? I guess I was assuming that there was a counterbalance already there. If so, then the back cinch is duplicating the same or similar function.

Another factor I see with hobbling the back cinch forward. My calf-roping back cinches run 6-8" wide in the belly. If I angled them forward, I would only have the front edge hitting the horse. Even with a 3" back cinch, unless it is contoured, or the buckles hung off square, it probably wouldn't have full contact either.

Also type of roping, how broke the horse is, how big the wreck is gonna be, and is the clock running all factor into how tight you are going to get and how fast. I know my horn on a low TM tree with me forward, hanging off the right side, or if I was younger or any good, already off, is creating more torque when a 230# calf hits the end. It is different cranking down on a #4 sitting on a Bowman or Olin Young on the heels of a quick steer turned, and you are sitting square and back when everything comes tight. Different yet heeling calves at a walk or trot in a branding pen and slipping on a mulehide post. These also affect what kind of back cinch, how tight the back cinch is pulled, and how long it stays pulled.

The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

[AZThunderPony]

The confusion may also lie in that David's trees are designed to sit in a different place than what I am used to using/seeing. Maybe with his trees being more forward, and rigged further back, they are more stable cinched as shown, and they will keep the bar fronts off the shoulder blades when the horn would be torqued.

OKay I am really out of my league here... that said... are Davids saddles designed for roping? Somehow correct me if I am wrong, but I didnt get that impression. I'd be afraid of the thing coming over the horses head.

Forgive me Daivd, I'm not picking on you. It's just this whole concept you have is foreign to me. I would love to see some pics of horses performing in these saddles.

S

[bruce johnson]

Susan,

Sorry for the confusion. I was thinking without looking. On the thread regarding the Nikkel's trees, David was telling Rod that if Rod changed the bar patterns by incorporating twist into Rod's patterns, he could stabilize the rear of the saddle during roping. Sorry about that to all involved.

I thought I saw somewhere that David does make ranch saddles. On his website he shows a Wade with a mulehide wrapped horn. That is where I got idea of his saddles being roped out of. The site also lists a rope strap as an option.

[Alan Bell]

Well, (still waiting David's response) the plot thickens! Following in the lines of and somewhay reading between what David has written in previous post and looking at the picture posted by my friend Jane we arrive at a confused place. David stated that he always places "al la Jineta" and "a la brida" as formost concepts (I am paraphrasing here). These concepts although coming to us from Spain actually are the difference between the Muslims and Christians and their style of horseback combat. A la Jineta refers to the North African Moors that ruled Spain for 700 yrs and the phrase is still used in Latin America to describe a person that is brave, agile, and daring especially on horseback. In N America it was adapted to working cattle from horseback by the Conquistadors once they had nothing and noone else to conquer. While the riders style may remain the same across the two different activities (warfare and cow work) the purpose and use of the saddle is quite different. These difference necessitated fundamental design changes most notable in the addition of the saddle horn. Maybe David can help us out by elaborating a bit on how he uses these concepts in his tree design and what effect, if any, it has had on the different roles the saddle plays between warfare and cow work. If we are building for 'a la Jineta' riding in regards to warfare we do not have to worry about the effects a 600# steer will have on our saddle, the rigging, the saddle placement or the tree in the same regards as if we are building for 'a la Jineta' riding AND cow work. I think that is where Bruce is heading and you can add to this if I am leaving things out. This is really cool stuff and being the analytical goober that I am I really enjoy tossing these concepts around.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Life is one big road with a lot of signs; So when you're trodding through the ruts don't you complicate your mind

Bob Marley

[GAP]

Very iinteresting thread here! Took me a couple of days to kinda read, digest and compare my thoughts. Wish I had caught earlier discussions? I'm spending way too much time reading on here as it is though.

I'm wanting to hear more about these trees too.... from my perspective I don't see one staying put. But I don't know the riders, makers, or anything else about them. I t looks like they were just sat on the horse and cinched down without giving it a wiggle and push back you do when saddling up?

I'd like to see some bar pictures? Is there any? And maybe a tree setting on a horse?

I'm trying to understand why so far forward?

Like it was said: I can't see one used like that in ranch work. If your horse is facing the rope, it looks like you're bars are gonna be pulled down into the shoulders. In fact... I can't picture one being used like that, period? But I've never tried to fit one to a single horse either.

Just here to learn, no more no less

.................

My own use... I love using a 7/8 plate rig. I've used one for a long time... of hard use, every day, long circles, ropeing big cattle in not good conditions on some not so good horses, as well as had instances dragging calves to the fire all day long where stake ropes were used. Ropers are simply hard to come by at some places anymore. They stay put good on most, transfer the pull well, allow as much freedom as you want, and wear well. Much better than any ring or dee rigged saddle I've had. Gotta admit that I've only had a couple though.

When somebody asks what I suggest... it's either a plate or skirt rig 7/8, just depends on how they ride. Never have been convinced of using a skirt rig in the conditions above. But I do love 'em otherwise!.