How much sway or belly is right???

[jonwatsabaugh]

Dave

In my reference to Dennis's card system, I meant that I would use it for my information only, using it to sample many horses, possibly two hundred or so only to fine tune my baseline standard. I am pretty confident though that this procedure would validate what I am presently doing. I would be interested to see if someone like Steve Mason orders his trees with varying factors on the bottom side of his bars, or if he prefers a standard set of dimensions and angles for all his trees. This may be something he may or may not be willing to discuss. I would completely understand if he defers discussion on this subject. Also I recently spoke with Jeremiah Watt and he is proposing the idea of putting together a saddle tree makers round table discussion. I would hope we could all leave such a meeting encouraged and inspired, minus the bloody noses!

Jon

[Hidemechanic]

This conversation actually stirs up a few of issues that have plegued saddle and treemakers.

1. what is a standard of measurement(width, rock, twist, lenth,end flare)

2. Micro-fit or not to micro-fit.

3.Rider education, that is, teaching riders how to use(recognize propper fit) a propper fitting saddle as opposed to going to extremes to make an ill fitting saddle work.

As for #1.It's all educated guessing at this point because there is no standard for breeds in this country(USA). In other countries there has been a tradition of breed standards. If a horse's conformation is not up to standards that horse is put down.

In America we have a history of mixing breeds to achieve a specific conformation which in and of itself is a method of improving a breed's usefullness for a specific purpose. But there was little control over who can breed what, and we have become a nation of 'back yard' breeders and are losing the standards within many breeds.(not to mention the sentiment that "we can't kill a poor horse just because it's shaped a little funny, it's part of the family!!"

That makes it more difficult nowadays for tree makers to set a standard of measurements.

As to micro fitting, I worn people ahead of time that if they bring me a horse that is not 'standard' and wants a tree to fit it's special confirmation, they need to no that when that horse is no longer rideable they will have as much trouble finding another horse to fit their custom fitted saddle as they had finding a saddle to fit their special needs horse. If that is not an issue for them, we move on.

I know that your previous conversations on 'micro-fit' (I missed) probably addressed more precise fitting of a horse which brings up other questions, to that I will just restate what I've mentioned in another post, that we are trying to fit a stiff slab of wood to a fluid surface and hoping to hit a happy medium between the different shapes a horse's back goes through when in action, and have the horse still be comfortable doing so with 250+# of top heavy weight on it's back.

#3. I agree that there are different riding stayles within the western disciplines, I have though, seen many riders that think that because they haven't fallen off their horse much that they are great riders.

But they are surprized when they come to me with a problem that they think is related to their saddle and I tell them that it is their riding style that is causing their problem.

I agree that a riders style can directly effect the horse's performance abilities, but that the ride's position in the seat has nothing to do with soring a horse.

In many cases if we could get riders to position their pelvis properly use their stirrups differntly and built up their upper leg muscles and use them all together as a finely balanced suspention mechanism, they become suprized at how their horse's performance improves.

Back to the tree fitting issue I agree with Rod/Den that for the most part the bare tree fit on the back is the best way to judge the contoures between the two. Adding hide, fleese and padding when done correctly will not change or obscure those contoures, they follow them.

As for DougM's situation, I don't want to presume what you have or haven't tried as to padding( not that that has anything to do with your white spots at the stirrup slots) I have found with packers and working cowboys (hours on the range) that a 1" felt pad between a folded quality wool blanket has had great success in most cases. The combiation together gives good padding without over padding as well as heat and moisture wicking, and cleaning the pad and blanket is easier too.

We wind up having to become inventive and imaginetive when trying to communicate with our tree makers to achieve a satisfactory end for each situation, but like with what I think you were getting at with the micro-fitting I think sometimes we get caught up over anylizing that we miss the simple solutions.

Good topic. GH

[David Genadek]

Dave

In my reference to Dennis's card system, I meant that I would use it for my information only, using it to sample many horses, possibly two hundred or so only to fine tune my baseline standard. I am pretty confident though that this procedure would validate what I am presently doing. I would be interested to see if someone like Steve Mason orders his trees with varying factors on the bottom side of his bars, or if he prefers a standard set of dimensions and angles for all his trees. This may be something he may or may not be willing to discuss. I would completely understand if he defers discussion on this subject. Also I recently spoke with Jeremiah Watt and he is proposing the idea of putting together a saddle tree makers round table discussion. I would hope we could all leave such a meeting encouraged and inspired, minus the bloody noses!

Jon

Jon,

I have done thousands of tracings but they are all based on key anatomical points so that I have a basis of comparison. If you willy nilly pick points you really aren't getting useable data. The system can help you get it right for a given horse at a given moment in time but it does not help you build a base line for normal. That base line is what we all should be pushing for. I have three basic bar shapes right now. I know I will add a few more but they will be for small niche breeds like Icelandics.

David Genadek

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

There is microfitting for a particular horse at a particular moment in time which, from previous posts, nobody is really thrilled with doing whether they decide to do it or not. And then there is recognizing that there are varying sizes and shapes of horses and one size doesn’t fit all. Dennis’s system is nothing more than what we have all been doing for years in getting back drawings sent to us – trying to communicate the basic shape of the horse’s back from one person to another. The advantage of his system over the back drawings are consistency and reproducibility.

Dennis uses his system as we hope to use it once we have had it on enough horses to be comfortable with it – to tell us what style of horse this tree is being built for. How we build that to fit as we see best is up to us. We aren’t planning on changing how we do things. We just need to correlate how what we are currently doing matches some of the shapes. Sounds like you are of the same mindset.

how far beyond your baseline standard will you venture?

There have always (?) been different widths and angles to trees which the saddle maker can order from. But there has never been a way to discuss rock, and horses do vary in the amount of rock in their backs. We don’t make wild variations, but if we know the saddle is going to someone who trains 2 and 3 year olds, we will make the rock a tiche less. There are some breeds or styles of horses that have quite a rise up to the loin. Would we prefer they weren’t built that way? Sure, but they are and they are being ridden, so you have to be careful not to bridge on them and add a tiche extra rock. Are these variations enough to negate the fit on most other horses? We don’t think so, or we wouldn’t do them. The same goes for the profile of the bottom of the bar. How round do you make it, and do you think you need to or are you willing to make a few variations to fit different shapes? That is the question every tree maker has to answer as he puts his name on a tree.

1. what is a standard of measurement(width, rock, twist, lenth,end flare)

The truth is that there just isn’t one, and I doubt there ever will be. There are just so many variables and that pesky third dimension (which seems to be six some days) that you would need a whole slew of numbers just to get one point defined. And then there is shaping after that. That is why the best solution we can see is labeling the horse shape rather than the tree shape. Then all the tree makers can build a tree to fit an X shaped horse or a Y shaped horse, and use whatever measurements or angles they need to in order to get the final product to fit. Then the fit of trees could really be compared. If two trees are shipped out to fit an X shaped horse, then put them on an X shaped horse and see how they both fit. That is the only way we see that you would be comparing apples to apples. Now, what is the best way they should sit to fit? I doubt there will ever be total agreement there either.

Hidemechanic,

We disagree a bit that the rider’s position has nothing to do with soring a horse. We think that a rider who habitually leans back, leans forward or leans to one side will concentrate pressure in those areas and can lead to soreness even with a good fitting tree. But it has to be a major and habitual weight shift to do this and we still don’t think that would happen in the center of the tree. It would certainly affect performance long before it causes soreness.

we are trying to fit a stiff slab of wood to a fluid surface and hoping to hit a happy medium between the different shapes a horse's back goes through when in action, and have the horse still be comfortable doing so with 250+# of top heavy weight on it's back.

I have found with packers and working cowboys (hours on the range) that a 1" felt pad between a folded quality wool blanket has had great success in most cases. The combination together gives good padding without over padding as well as heat and moisture wicking, and cleaning the pad and blanket is easier too.

I think sometimes we get caught up over analyzing that we miss the simple solutions.

Great summary statements of a bunch of topics…

David,

Dennis's system is built on anatomical points. I will try to repost the explanation this evening if I can.

[JRedding]

I'm not a treemaker but I'm trying to get something out of this anyway. There's talk about a baseline standard, but how could that ever really be established more accurately than it is ? Like I said I'm not a treemaker but I've sure bought a lot of them and sold them all over the U.S. and a few abroad. I've learned the baseline standard in Texas is vastly different from that in Idaho, and everyones riding the same breed basically, I don't do anything for rare breeds.Horse conformation varies widely by region. If you never sold a saddle outside your immediate area it would be one thing but taking calls from every state it's another. And some of this has to depend on what you're using it for, what seems to be improved engineering for some lady rider in a round pen back east may be the worst idea ever for some cowpuncher in Farson Wyoming, and that cowpunchers rig likely wouldn't serve too well at a California cutting.They're all different horses, with different riders, in diifferent types of country being used for different jobs. How do you baseline standard that ? So I guess my question is how much better can it be done ?Or is this just a circular conversation that's going nowhere?

Edited February 4, 2008 by JRedding

[Hidemechanic]

I think for me at least, in all of these saddle tree and saddle fit topics we are trying to articulate things that normally don't get addressed much outside the custom saddle world. We are trying to make these issues more understandable for those less knowlegable of trees and fit problems.

Three makers I have worked with are aware of what is typically being ridden in particular areas as well as being able to recognise the oddballs in any region.

BruceJ has just started another post to find out what each tree maker does to be sure the customer is getting what he needs. That is going to get as close to 'base line' as I think we can get at this point. Cheers ,GH

[David Genadek]

I'm not a treemaker but I'm trying to get something out of this anyway. There's talk about a baseline standard, but how could that ever really be established more accurately than it is ? Like I said I'm not a treemaker but I've sure bought a lot of them and sold them all over the U.S. and a few abroad. I've learned the baseline standard in Texas is vastly different from that in Idaho, and everyones riding the same breed basically, I don't do anything for rare breeds.Horse conformation varies widely by region. If you never sold a saddle outside your immediate area it would be one thing but taking calls from every state it's another. And some of this has to depend on what you're using it for, what seems to be improved engineering for some lady rider in a round pen back east may be the worst idea ever for some cowpuncher in Farson Wyoming, and that cowpunchers rig likely wouldn't serve too well at a California cutting.They're all different horses, with different riders, in diifferent types of country being used for different jobs. How do you baseline standard that ? So I guess my question is how much better can it be done ?Or is this just a circular conversation that's going nowhere?

There's talk about a baseline standard, but how could that ever really be established more accurately than it is ? The trick is to fit the horse and not the poor effects of the training.

"They're all different horses" If you study the origin of the species you will find the reasons why we have different shapes but you will also discover that there are fewer actual shapes than we are brought to beleave. But it is a personal choice weather you decide to fit the actaul animal or the human effects to his body. I have made a chioce to fit the actual anatomy of the animal and have found that it actually allows room for much of mans negative effect.

In regards to different jobs the bio-mechanics do not change by changing your hat.

David Genadek