thigh length for a saddle tree

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Recently, when we were talking with a very accomplished saddle and tree maker, he told us his formula for figuring out what he might like to use as a thigh length for a saddle tree. The “thigh length†is the room between the front corner of the cantle and the back of the fork where the rider’s thigh goes. This really is the important thing to get correct when trying to get the right size of saddle for a rider. (If the rider is hitting any of the places used to measure seat length when they are riding, they are in BIG trouble.)

Using basic geometry (Circumference of a circle = pi (3.14) X Diameter), he takes the circumference of the rider’s thigh and divides by three to get the approximate diameter. He then adds an inch to account for leather, extra room etc. He says generally this gives him a pretty good idea on what distance he wants there in order to fit the rider well. Of course, the thigh length you want will depend a bit on the fork style (swell vs. slick, bucking rolls or not, leg cut on the swell fork or not), and how tight the rider likes to be in his saddle.

This sounds like a pretty simple way to get an idea of size. What do you saddle makers think? Do you think it would work for the way you build saddles?

[bruce johnson]

Rod and Denise,

Mathematically it makes sense, although there is a little increase in reality. If you measure straight around, you will get a smaller measurement than if the leg is slightly angled like it would be if you are riding. Calipers?? This whole concept of thigh length makes sense. I just did a "survey" of what I have sitting, and it was interesting the variability comparing seat length vs. thigh length. Hadn't done it before.

16-1/2" Timberline Dee Pickett w/minimal leg cut - 11-1/2" TL - 4" cantle

16" Timberline Dee Pickett w/ minimal leg cut - 11" TL - 4'' cantle

16" Hercules Cahill roper - 10-1/2" TL - 4-1/2" cantle

16" Nikkel Wade - 9-1/4" TL - 4-1/2" cantle

16" Timberline Wade - 10-1/4" TL - 4-1/2" cantle

16" Hercules DR roper - 9-1/2" TL - 3-1/2" cantle

17" Timberline bronc - 10-1/2" TL - 4-1/4 cantle

16-1/2" Nikkel High Country - 10-1/2" TL - 4" cantle

I am going to start keeping track of the finished measurements on what I ride, and also the repairs coming in.

Edited October 23, 2007 by bruce johnson

[Don]

As a rule of thumb I use the thigh, or Femur Bone, as a way of deciding what seat size someone may need: 16" Femur = 16" seat(as a rule of thumb...dependent on the decipline). But I have never used, nor thought about thigh width. I am eager to hear more about this subject and I will also do some inventory of what we have on the floor.

[daviD A Morris]

Bruce,

Thanks for those statistics, I just made a note of them. Would you mind also giving us the cantle heights on each of them. I suspect that 16" wade with the shorter thigh length has a higher cantle, if not then the cantle is laid back more. Alternatively the fork could be sloped forward more (less likely). Or if both cantle heights are the same then it could be a combination of cantle laid back more and fork sloped forward a little more. All things for the saddle maker ordering a tree to think about. Hope that I have not confused everyone.

Not much good giving my statistics at this stage as my trees vary all over the place depending on customer needs and i only make trees for my own needs. Needless to say being so flexible and accomodating in tree design is not the most profitable way to operate!!!

regards

dam

[bruce johnson]

David,

I went back and edited the previous post to include the cantle heights. I also added another new tree at the bottom of that list I just got. The Rowell listed is a "rebuild Grandad's old saddle" deal. It is stripped down to the tree and groundseat.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Bruce,

I know you can't put company names on the trees, but I am assuming that there are a number of different makers represented in this group. One thing David mentioned was the effect that standing the fork up has. On our trees, the thigh length is 3/4" longer with a stood up fork compared to the same tree with the same fork leaned ahead our normal amount. Of course, others makers will have different amounts of difference. Some makers work really hard to keep their thigh length and seat length comparable, regardless of cantle height. That means they can't give you the option of cantle angle and some other things because that is what they use to keep them comparable. I don't know if they keep them comparable if the fork is stood up or not. That would be a lot more difficult.

A question for you saddle makers: Would you prefer that seat length and thigh length always correlated (within one maker's trees, because you will NEVER get the different makers the same - they do things too differently, you know ), or would you like to have the option of choosing the cantle angle? Or does it matter so long as you know what you will be getting when you order?

[bruce johnson]

Denise,

No reason I can think of why we can't post whose trees these are. They are just measurements and no mention of quality. I will go back and add that too in a bit.

As you said cantle and fork angles will change the thigh length. Until there are some standards among tree makers, we are just going to have to ask a lot of questions when going from one maker to the other. You hear makers and riders talk about "this saddle has a 16" seat, but it is a long 16 or a short 16". Thigh length I think is the factor here for those saddles.

Another question comparing the two Wades I have. Does the cantle shape and width make a difference on how far forward the cantle points come? The Timberline has a more oval cantle, and yours has a round cantle. Seems like your cantle points come a little more forward, the fork angles seem pretty similar.

Edited October 23, 2007 by bruce johnson

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Another question comparing the two Wades I have. Does the cantle shape and width make a difference on how far forward the cantle points come? The Timberline has a more oval cantle, and yours has a round cantle. Seems like your cantle points come a little more forward, the fork angles seem pretty similar.

Answer - it might, but it doesn't have to. Depends how you make them. In this picture, I have drawn a wider cantle as the starting point. Then I have drawn a narrower one as well. On the right hand side (looking at the picture) I drew the cantle so the point is a bit up the line which would move the points back and up on the bar. On the left hand side I drew it so they both came to the same point. Either one would make an acceptable cantle. We decided a number of years ago that in order to be as consistent as possible with thigh length, we would keep that point the same on all cantles (with very rare exceptions). So on our trees, no, the shape and width of the cantle doesn't affect how far down and forward the points go on the bar. But on other maker's trees, it might. And in comparing between makers, your guess is as good as mine.

Another factor that David didn't mention but that also makes a difference in where those cantle points end up is the angle of the cut on the bar (or, for those makers who don't have a cantle cut, the angle on the bottom of their cantle). Here are two pictures of cantles with two different angles to that cut on the bar. (Please ignore the writing on the pictures, but these are the clearest ones I have at the moment.) I assume every tree maker has slightly different angles here, which is just one more reason why you can't compare between makers without actually looking at the two trees side by side.

Just a quick note on the two trees you have listed that we built. The High Country has a stood up fork, which makes the thigh length longer. But it also happens to have the cantle at the most laid back angle we make, which makes it shorter. The cantle could easily be stood up another notch, but the thigh length on this tree as is will be large enough to fit all but the very largest riders out there, so it is unlikely that you would want to do that with this tree. That Wade has the cantle at the middle angle, and it also could be stood up a notch or even two to increase the thigh room if you wanted. (If you keep the seat length the same and stand the cantle up more, the effect is to hold the middle of the top of the cantle in place, and move the bottom back, which increases the thigh length.) These are the types of things that can be maneuvered to get the thigh length the rider needs, even if they are set on a specific number for seat length and won't listen as you tell them that it really doesn't matter that much anyway.

[bruce johnson]

Denise and Rod,

Thanks for the cantle pics. That clarifies things even more.

I also have say a great big THANK YOU to both you and Rod, and also Dennis Lane and Blake. What I thought I knew about saddle trees 6 months ago is not even a blip on the radar screen to what I know now. My sincere thanks to all who have contributed questions, comments, and knowledge. It is appreciated.

[Alan Bell]

Denise said -

(If you keep the seat length the same and stand the cantle up more, the effect is to hold the middle of the top of the cantle in place, and move the bottom back, which increases the thigh length.)

Does doing this affect the amount of dish and if so how and why? (I'm thinking we are measuring dish from the bottom point of the cantle to the cantle

gullett.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

How long shall they kill our prophets while we stand aside and look? Some say its just a part of it , We've got to fulfill the bokj

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Alan,

The way we measure dish is by laying a ruler along the the front edge of the cantle and measuring in to the top of the cantle gullet.

I am not familiar with how you are measuring. Could you explain further?

Does doing this affect the amount of dish and if so how and why?

Easy answer - No, standing a cantle up doesn't affect the dish you put into it. You can still put 1 1/4" dish into any angle of our regular cantles.

Complicated answer - except... If the angle you choose doesn't physically allow you to have the deep or shallow dish you want. Basically, the more stood up a cantle is, the more dish it can have in it without making the cantle too thin. And there is a limit to how little dish you can put in a cantle depending on those cuts on the bars. Those limits will vary with cantle angle.

Standing the cantle up and choosing the same dish will affect the slope of the face of the cantle. It will also get more upright.

Confused enough yet? Any tree maker we have talked with has said that cantles are the most complicated part of the tree, and we sure agree with them!

[Alan Bell]

Denise, I am away from the home front now and was envisioning the illustration you provided from memory. My mistake. I thought you were measuring from the point where the cantle touches the bars and then back to the cantle gullet rather than across the cantle at a height even with the cantle gullet.

So much for my memory cells!

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

Get up! Stand up! stand up for your rights!

Bob Marley