Inlay Design - Pattern To Tight?

[JC Javelle]

Help, help, help! Lol.

Alright, I have a vague pattern of a hyacinth that I have transferred to my pre-cut leather holster piece. It's a flower with the petals in separate chunks. I would like to do a suede inlay. How do I know if the pattern is to tight to do an inlay? Like, when does the pattern (the petals) come to close to itself in the cutout that I should worry about ripping or sewing?

I was considering only sewing the outside edges of the pattern, as I likely do not have the room to sew inside of it, but do I need to sew inside of it? Will glue/cement suffice?

I am trying to scan my drawing of the design (accurate and to scale with the holster outline and punch holes), however as of this moment, my printer/scanner is not cooperating. I am trying to fix that....

Also, should I mold the leather before I cut the design out? Should I mold it with the suede or lay the suede in afterwards? This is just a showy piece I am experimenting with for me. It isn't really meant to be a functioning carry holster.

Thank you in advanced,

Jessica

[katsass]

Help, help, help! Lol.

Alright, I have a vague pattern of a hyacinth that I have transferred to my pre-cut leather holster piece. It's a flower with the petals in separate chunks. I would like to do a suede inlay. How do I know if the pattern is to tight to do an inlay? Like, when does the pattern (the petals) come to close to itself in the cutout that I should worry about ripping or sewing?

I was considering only sewing the outside edges of the pattern, as I likely do not have the room to sew inside of it, but do I need to sew inside of it? Will glue/cement suffice?

I am trying to scan my drawing of the design (accurate and to scale with the holster outline and punch holes), however as of this moment, my printer/scanner is not cooperating. I am trying to fix that....

Also, should I mold the leather before I cut the design out? Should I mold it with the suede or lay the suede in afterwards? This is just a showy piece I am experimenting with for me. It isn't really meant to be a functioning carry holster.

Thank you in advanced,

Jessica

JC, I do a bit of inlay type work on a holster now and then, but reading your query .............you have me totally confused. Maybe this will help.This is kinda how I do things, sorta. On (in) the piece which will be the, outer shell of the holster, I cut out the area, design, spot, etc. in which I will see my inlay. (The outer shell is dyed prior to the cutting). I burnish the inside edges of this 'window'. I run a stitching gouge closely around the the outside edge of the window, and mark the stitch spacing with an overstitch. I cut my inlay of suede, snake skin, ostrich, skin of the oft used but never seen nauga, etc. so as to be about 3/8" to 1/2" larger than the previously cut 'window'. I turn my outer shell over with the flesh side up and CAREFULLY glue the inlay (also flesh side up) into place. I turn that puppy over and commence to punch holes and stitch all around the edges of the window, design, spot, or what ever you want to call it. You now have your inlay properly in place and secure. I now cut the lining piece which will back-up the inlay and also provide a smooth interior for your holster. Remember....it is a mirror image of the shell. I glue the lining in place (flesh sides together) and trim as necessary. I burnish all edges other than the main seam, welt, or whatever you want to call it. I stitch all of these edges. I then fit and glue the main seam, welt etc. in place and stitch. I fine sand that edge and burnish. All that's left to do is apply a finish. If you use suede, it will have to be completely covered to make sure your finish does not get onto that fuzzy stuff. To me, if you can't stitch all edges of your cut out pattern, you probably have a pattern which is too detailed for the inlay......although I have seen some pretty detailed inlay work. Think smaller needle and thread. Hope this helps. Here are a few pics of some recent inlay pieces that I have done, probably not as detailed as you are thinking. Mike, the grumpy old man

[BillB]

I am also confused. In my experience that you are talking about two different designs: Filigree and Inlay. In Filigree, the upper layer is cut so that a lower layer shows through or you can see through it. In Inlay all the pieces fit together at the same level like a jigsaw puzzle.

Here is the Wikipedia page on Filigree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filigree

Here is the wikipedia page on Inlay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inlay

I hope this helps.

BillB

[JC Javelle]

Alrighty, clarification is hopefully on its way!

I left work early enough today to manage to make it to my local Tandys in order to ask questions and clarify how to do what I want to do. So hopefully I can explain it here more clearly now, as well as ask more questions.

I did not know that what I am planning to do is in fact called filigree. Please forgive my error.

The picture that I have patterned for my holster is to be cutout. It is not one a solid silhouette. Think of stained glass, with the iron pieces being the outline holding the glass together. I wanted to know if the pieces of leather (imagine the iron) that would be in between my cutouts were going to be to thin (some spots were, but that can be fixed by cutting it thicker than it has been traced onto the leather). I also wanted to know if I had to sew along those thing pieces that would be left in between the cutouts, or could I just glue/weld them. I was told gluing/welding would suffice.

As this piece is to be a holster, I also wanted to know in what order I should do things (cut first, mold first, etc). I was told to cut out my pattern and then mold the leather to my gun. After molding, then I could lay the material I chose as my background (my suede) so it would conform to the curves of the leather.

Understand?

Now, more questions. I wanted to know what kind of punch I should use for the string that I will use to sew my suede to my leather? I was told today at Tandys, as I was looking for a punch to use with imperial lace, but I forgot and did not consider it until now. Also, what kind of string should I use (wax string, etc)?

Hopefully, for now, last question: I was thinking of lacing the outside edges of my holster with the imperial lace that I have. Can I dye imperial lace (it is a natural veg tan color) to match my dyed leather?

I hope I cleared up the confusion. Sorry! And thanks again,

Jessica

PS: Katsass, the picture of the first holster in your post is what inspired me to try filigree/inlays. It's a really beautiful piece.

[benlilly1]

JC, I do a bit of inlay type work on a holster now and then, but reading your query .............you have me totally confused. Maybe this will help.This is kinda how I do things, sorta. On (in) the piece which will be the, outer shell of the holster, I cut out the area, design, spot, etc. in which I will see my inlay. (The outer shell is dyed prior to the cutting). I burnish the inside edges of this 'window'. I run a stitching gouge closely around the the outside edge of the window, and mark the stitch spacing with an overstitch. I cut my inlay of suede, snake skin, ostrich, skin of the oft used but never seen nauga, etc. so as to be about 3/8" to 1/2" larger than the previously cut 'window'. I turn my outer shell over with the flesh side up and CAREFULLY glue the inlay (also flesh side up) into place. I turn that puppy over and commence to punch holes and stitch all around the edges of the window, design, spot, or what ever you want to call it. You now have your inlay properly in place and secure. I now cut the lining piece which will back-up the inlay and also provide a smooth interior for your holster. Remember....it is a mirror image of the shell. I glue the lining in place (flesh sides together) and trim as necessary. I burnish all edges other than the main seam, welt, or whatever you want to call it. I stitch all of these edges. I then fit and glue the main seam, welt etc. in place and stitch. I fine sand that edge and burnish. All that's left to do is apply a finish. If you use suede, it will have to be completely covered to make sure your finish does not get onto that fuzzy stuff. To me, if you can't stitch all edges of your cut out pattern, you probably have a pattern which is too detailed for the inlay......although I have seen some pretty detailed inlay work. Think smaller needle and thread. Hope this helps. Here are a few pics of some recent inlay pieces that I have done, probably not as detailed as you are thinking. Mike, the grumpy old man

[benlilly1]

Thanks for the full information on this technique. I've been wanting to ask how to do this also.

JC, I do a bit of inlay type work on a holster now and then, but reading your query .............you have me totally confused. Maybe this will help.This is kinda how I do things, sorta. On (in) the piece which will be the, outer shell of the holster, I cut out the area, design, spot, etc. in which I will see my inlay. (The outer shell is dyed prior to the cutting). I burnish the inside edges of this 'window'. I run a stitching gouge closely around the the outside edge of the window, and mark the stitch spacing with an overstitch. I cut my inlay of suede, snake skin, ostrich, skin of the oft used but never seen nauga, etc. so as to be about 3/8" to 1/2" larger than the previously cut 'window'. I turn my outer shell over with the flesh side up and CAREFULLY glue the inlay (also flesh side up) into place. I turn that puppy over and commence to punch holes and stitch all around the edges of the window, design, spot, or what ever you want to call it. You now have your inlay properly in place and secure. I now cut the lining piece which will back-up the inlay and also provide a smooth interior for your holster. Remember....it is a mirror image of the shell. I glue the lining in place (flesh sides together) and trim as necessary. I burnish all edges other than the main seam, welt, or whatever you want to call it. I stitch all of these edges. I then fit and glue the main seam, welt etc. in place and stitch. I fine sand that edge and burnish. All that's left to do is apply a finish. If you use suede, it will have to be completely covered to make sure your finish does not get onto that fuzzy stuff. To me, if you can't stitch all edges of your cut out pattern, you probably have a pattern which is too detailed for the inlay......although I have seen some pretty detailed inlay work. Think smaller needle and thread. Hope this helps. Here are a few pics of some recent inlay pieces that I have done, probably not as detailed as you are thinking. Mike, the grumpy old man

[katsass]

Good morning to you both, and thanks for the kind words re: my work. I'm very small time in that I do only custom work, molded to the individual customer's gun and to his(her) wants and needs. On top of that I'm old and just may want to go fishing or shooting trap, and I don't want to 'have' to do something in a hurry. (nobody actually expects an old man to do anything in a hurry.)

JC, I have done very little filigree work, but what little I have done varies very little from inlay.....but it's touchy, so take your time!! As you say, "think stained glass". A good tool to use is an X-Acto knife with various widths of chisel point blades. Carefully cut you pieces out straight down, VERTICALLY (on inlay I do the same, but use an edge cutter on the inside after cutting...then burnish those edges.. NOT on filigree.... also, the outer shell is usually a lighter leather on filigree work than on inlay) You need to ensure that there are no 'free-standing' parts in the design, ie: the design must be attached to the shell in a few places around the outer edges of the design and nothing inside can be standing alone. These 'attachments' can be quite narrow.....but keep them symmetrical. Gluing up is touchy, be careful to not allow any glue to smear or show on the inlay (the contrasting piece under your filigree cuts, suede in your case.) My method of doing this was to apply a contact type of cement over the entire flesh side of the cut-out area in the shell, and around the periphery of the design. Allow this to dry only to the point that it is not wet enough to smear..... just tacky, and ensure that there are no 'blobs' of glue. It must be smooth, but still moist. Lay that down on the suede (or vicey-vercy) in one shot......don't move it! Wait a minute or so then roll it down with a wallpaper roller or your Ma's good rolling pin. (That adds excitement to a project) NOW.....walk away from it for about a half hour....go wash your hair, have a brew....do ANYTHIG to keep your grubby mitts off of it. Now, finally, you can now turn it over and see what you have created. There should be no glue showing and no curled edges. This whole thing must now be applied to the inner liner of your holster. Notice that on filigree work there is no stitching holding the 'lead' of the 'stained glass' down. This makes the filigree work a little less durable than inlay work......but can be very striking!

As to how I work. I cut all pieces out, dye them as necessary and allow to dry. I live in the desert and overnight is long enough out here. I then sand and burnish free standing edges (mouth of the holster and the belt loop, if a standard belt pouch.) Stitch the belt loop down then stitch the main 'seam' after gluing in place and sanding to fit. With an 'inlay' of suede, I would mold the holster by inserting a warm (not hot) wet (more than damp, less the soaking) clean wash cloth into to holster, allow to to moisten the leather inside. You may need to do this a couple of times...what you do not want to do is get the suede wet. Then mold to your weapon.

As to trying to dye your lace, it most likely will not work. Almost all lacing has a finished surface that prohibits the dye from working satisfactorily.

Notice that as said before, no stitching holds down your filigree work, just glue. HOWEVER, since the holster will be made from layered leather, all edges must be stitched down. That is around the mouth and (if opened toe) the toe. Look at the two pics I sent earlier, the top one is open toe, the bottom is closed toe. There is a difference, HOWEVER, you can lace all edges instead of stitching, I have done a few this way also. For stitching however, I use and old Osborne saddler's awl that is most likely older than you. It's about 1/8" wide and 1 1/4" long. I mark my stitch line with a #6 overstitch wheel. A good size for most holster work. I use waxed linen thread, generally 'natural' color. I use #1 sized needles. Frankly, I usually don't get much of anything from Tandy anymore......back in the 60's their stuff was pretty good, they seemed to have slipped in the current times. I get most of my supplies from Springfield Leather Co. (google them) You can call them on their 800 number with damned near any question re: leather work, and get assistance and an honest answer. I enclose a pic re: stitching leather. This is from Al Stohlman's book "HOW TO MAKE HOLSTERS" and is an excellent 'go to' book for most questions on basic holster construction. It is well worth the $12 or so to get it. I got mine in the early 60's or so, and still look at it from time to time.

Hope this is a little clearer than mud and gives you a bit of help. The one thing I'd recommend is: SLOW DOWN, TAKE YOUR TIME and think through each step before you jump. You might want to practice a little on some scrap before jumping in........you'll be better pleased with the finished product......ask me how I know.

Mike

Edited June 23, 2011 by katsass

[katsass]

I am also confused. In my experience that you are talking about two different designs: Filigree and Inlay. In Filigree, the upper layer is cut so that a lower layer shows through or you can see through it. In Inlay all the pieces fit together at the same level like a jigsaw puzzle.

Here is the Wikipedia page on Filigree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filigree

Here is the wikipedia page on Inlay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inlay

I hope this helps.

BillB

Bill, you are correct in the definitions as you show, however in leather, the two holsters that I show are considered to be first, constructed with an 'inlay of ostrich shin leather and the second, constructed with an 'inlaid backing for and attached arrowhead'. Metal inlay and filigree are as noted, and in wood, inlay, marquetry and filigree are also as noted.. In leather we kinda 'borrowed the term 'inlay' vs 'overlay' to differentiate the two forms of attaching a contrasting color and/or texture of leather within a piece. Mike

[JC Javelle]

Thanks Katsass.

I guess I will give this project a go soon and see how I do; probably this weekend if nothing comes up. I was really hoping to dye my lace, but I guess I should worry about dying my leather first before lacing so I can try to match the color or decide on a preset color. I really don't want to mess up. But hey, it is, in the end, a practice piece. Hopefully I can get my scanner or camera up and running soon so I can take pictures too.

Thank you again for the tips Kats. I really appreciate it.

[katsass]

Thanks Katsass.

I guess I will give this project a go soon and see how I do; probably this weekend if nothing comes up. I was really hoping to dye my lace, but I guess I should worry about dying my leather first before lacing so I can try to match the color or decide on a preset color. I really don't want to mess up. But hey, it is, in the end, a practice piece. Hopefully I can get my scanner or camera up and running soon so I can take pictures too.

Thank you again for the tips Kats. I really appreciate it.

JC, one thing to remember is, that if you ask three different leather workers how they do something, you are liable to get four different answers. We all work out the ways to do things in our own manner, with tools of our choosing that work for us. Most folks start with Tandy stuff, but if you Google Springfield leather Co, I think you will find stuff in there that will far outdo Tandy. You might want to order their catalog, it has a lot if informational tidbits in it ...even if you don't purchase from them. Just keep at it and, learn from the mistakes that will come. They are learning tools and make the grey matter work.

The directions given are how I do things......others may work a little differently. Also, never be afraid to give a wild idea a go, at worst, you learn what not to do, and also don't be afraid to make mistakes....we all do. I just tossed a holster style that I have done for years into the scrap bin. Somehow it just wasn't working out correctly. Last evening I cut the same pattern I drew for the first one, and everything fell into place.....I wasted a bit of leather (maybe) but my advice is that if something isn't feeling right......get off it. Maybe later you can modify what you did and salvage something useful.

Hope you guys are finally drying out down there. I was at the Naval Air Training Command in the very early '60s. I've seen it rain, snow and get warm and toasty....and humid. I swore that, if, in the spring, a person stood still for too long, something green would grow on you. As I say, I now live in the desert. Our summer time humidity is in the single digits. Wall Doxey State Park wasn't official, nor actually open when I was down that way, but the Navy and Marine Corps were allowed to go there periodically as a sort of a test prior to going into operation. A buddy of mine and I found a net sack full of quart bottles of a "clear liquid" hanging from a rope, down into the water back in the Cyprus trees on our first trip down there.......we left it. Mike

Edited June 24, 2011 by katsass

[BillB]

Mike,

I understand. I am more familiar with the in-lay term used in wood working where various pieces and types of wood "lay in" between each other to make a deign or pattern. When finished, all the surfaces would be the same level. In filigree wood work, there would be a single piece of wood that would have piercings or cutouts and the remaining wood would be the pattern or the outline of the patterns. Some times another piece of wood of opposite color would be place behind that first piece. So maybe the two terms would be "in-lay" and "behind-lay". 8-)

The example that someone gave of stained glass would actually be inlay since the pieces of glass lay in the frame of the lead foil which lays between the pieces.

In either case, showing an example clear shows what one is trying to discuss regards of the terms each one is familiar with.

Again. TKS

BillB

[JC Javelle]

Haha Katsass. I have a lifetime (short though it may be!) background in art. There is not much I haven't touched on. Leather is just the new medium, and the first art I've touched in about 3 to 4 years now. When I get the hang of it and can work it without consternation...I'll set my eyes on welding. But yes, I know. Everyone has their own method, every little detail is different. How to hold the utensil, how to move it, turn it. It's like writing, everyone has their own way to stroke the pen. My problem, I have to actually be shown the steps, and then I have to be made to do it as I have been shown. I can pick things up so easily that way. But I have no one to show me the details in leather, so I actually do have to make it up as I go. I have no way to visualize how to do it either. So the different steps I hear, I pick what sounds most comfortable to me and to how I am used to working. I take what sounds the "easiest" or smoothest way to do it, to how I am used to doing things, and then I try to make it work. If not, I'll ask again. I can be a pest when it comes to questions, and can ask a question 10 different ways until I get the answer I am satisfied with.

I am ordering a catalog from Springfield right now! I swear. Tandys, hell I got lucky. Tandys is right down the street from me, by what, some 7 or 8 blocks I think? Sometimes it is just better to take the short drive or bike ride there. Much more entertaining too. I can touch and smell the leather then.

As for dry.. haha. We had a good two weeks of solid sun without a single hint of a rain cloud. Dried up real quick over here. And now we get severe thunderstorms that are so short they can't even cool the temperature at all. Usually it's hot, hot, hot, massive down pouring of rain, and then a day or two of cool before the hot comes back. Rinse, repeat. Memphis is usually fairly predictable that way. Usually. Lately it's been in the 90's, with a severe thunderstorm warnings in the afternoon that brings short, heavy bouts of rain, sometimes with hail (hail in 90 degree weather! haha!). It'll be dry before the day is out sometimes. This last burst of rain for 4 days this week? Dry by Thursday. Dusty by Friday.

BillB, my example of the stained glass was to give the impression of what I meant by the leather in my design being thin and in between the design cutouts. That is all I meant by the stained glass. My suede is being laid behind the design by being glued and sewn to the back of the leather.