ccpowell

I don't know if it is correct, but my grandfather taught me that knot when I was a kid, and he always called it a rosebud. I like it better than the turk's head type on rope ends- it covers the twist of the rope better and the rope holds it's stiffness right up to the knot. Anyone else heard it called that? Those pics show the sequence very well- I haven't tied one in a while, and may need to refer back to those as a reminder- Chuck

What about putting the hilt/handle at the top of the L's, then let the bottom be the point on a broadsword? It sort of looks like one, and might take away the phallic appearance- just a thought, Chuck Sorry about that- I meant more of a cross type handle at the top, Chuck

Thank you for the experience- that is what I have found as well. When I am training reiners, working on turns and rollbacks, I find the same thing- dry and ruffled in the wither pocket area. I have been out riding big circles gathering cows all day and get the even sweat pattern. I think a lot of people tout the dry spots as definite poor saddle fit, (just do a google search on the subject and see) when in fact there may be nothing wrong. I have also seen, as I am sure you have, repeated riding with poor fit and the swelling, pain, then chronically muscle atrophy and white spots. I know growing up on the ranch, you had a saddle and you used it on whichever horse you rode- probably not something I would do with what I know now. Again, I greatly appreciate the reply- I think discussions like this can help inform a lot of people who may not know much about saddle fit, Chuck

I really like the idea of stamping the DL card numbers on the saddle- that could actually help even the production type saddles, or perhaps help people not buy one that won't fit- I think that I will start to incorporate that into my saddles in the future- it would allow the owner to apply something besides anecdote to using the saddle on a certain horse or conscientiously selling the saddle in the future. I occasionally am sticking my foot in my mouth on these forums, so I apologize for that- however I am learning tons to make me a better horse vet, farrier, and saddle maker. I really appreciate input from Rod, Denise, Blake, Tosch, JW, Bruce, Bondo Bob, and all the others who have followed up some of my posts and thoughts here. If any of you are interested in continuing to enlighten me as to saddle fit, rigging position, dry spots, correct saddle building, etc. then perhaps I can be a liason to the AAEP regarding the quality western saddle fit side of the story. I would also love to hear from those who spend a lot of time in the saddle as well as building them as to their take on the dry spot issue. Sorry for getting off subject on your thread here, but I hope the discussion has helped, Chuck

I have been trying to research the dry spot issue, and it is fairly frustrating. Most of the information out there is anecdotal at best. Here is a link to the AAEP website and a fairly comprehensive article on saddle fitting. At the beginning of the article, it lists in bullet point fashion signs of poor saddle fit, and dry spots is not on the list. Later in the article it mentions dry spots and states that they may be caused by lack of pressure first, then too much pressure as well. It could be that the spots frequently seen on shoulders is because of movement in this area and consequently more cooling and less sweating in this area. If there are dry spots with no pain, swelling, discomfort, or unwillingness to perform under saddle, then they may be insignificant. If anyone has more info or experience on this subject, please add on or PM me, I really want to gather data on the dry spot subject. Here is the link http://www.aaep.org/health_articles_view.php?id=331 Bob, you make a great point from the perspective of the saddle maker- what an owner tells you with regard to never selling the saddle could in fact come back to bite you in the posterior region! I know a vet who had a client swear that they wouldn't sell a cow, and he treated her cancer eye with off label chemo drugs. Later he found out that the cow was sold, and ended up finding her at a sale barn on the other side of the state. He managed to get there and get in the bidding for the cow, but buyers quickly caught on to the fact that a vet was trying to buy a cancer-eye cow, and bid him up. Consequently, it cost him a lot of time and money because of a "I won't sell" verbal guarantee! Maybe checking the Dennis Lane cards on this horse, then comparing to other haflingers would lead to an easier decision by horse owner and saddle maker as to whether or not to make a saddle specifically for this horse- it may lead to the development of the "Halflinger Tree"- something else to consider, Chuck

One thing to consider- would a custom saddle maker consider having a tree made custom to this horse, then build the saddle custom as well, and engrave it and/or tooling specific to the type of horse and rider? Would this help with the issue of maker reputation beyond the useful life of the horse? It would certainly be the best way to have a roping saddle that fit the horse and rider. As far as the downhill build, maybe some of the experienced custom saddle makers could jump in here and give insight? Maybe more buildup in front in the ground seat and perhaps a little more angle in the cantle? Chuck

From the Veterinary perspective, and Bruce is likely more experienced than myself, but I would love to see pictures before and after riding, and possibly after the bareback pad idea, then I may be able to offer my 2 cents (may not even be worth that much ). I would expect swelling to occur immediately or fairly soon after riding (as long as the tissue isn't too damaged to swell) and atrophy to be evident if there was severe damage from past poorly fitting saddles. Incidentally, I have trained a couple haflingers to ride for a client of mine, and they are nice little horses, and definitely can be hard to keep a saddle on. As far as dry spots are concerned, I would love to hear other opinions on this- but I have seen very good fitting saddles on horses and seen dry spots with no soreness or swelling or future white hairs- I am not convinced that they are always a sign of trouble. I have also seen horses ridden hard with good fitting saddles and good wool pads that were wet everywhere except where the saddle was- an entire blanket area dry spot! I have ridden horses before and done lots of turns and spins and direction changes, and had the shoulder area look dry when the hair was actually damp but ruffled up some when I took the saddle off, since that area tends to move more than the rest of the back under the saddle. Does this area get more air during riding due to the motion? I have used the same saddle on the same horse on long trail rides or longer days gathering big pastures with less repetitive turning and had the whole back equally wet when I pulled the saddle. I would love to hear more opinions on the dry spot issue. I owned a mare when I was a kid that bucked the previous owner off every time he rode her for 2 years, and she never bucked with me- she had swellings on her shoulders from his weight (he was a very big man) and a poor fitting saddle, and she took her revenge frequently before I got her. I think that if your horse is more comfortable, then you have made big progress already. Please post pictures if you can, Chuck

Very excellent points- I think that the other thing that all of us need to remember is that what we think we know and what we think has worked and therefore is correct could actually only be partially correct or worked for reasons other than what we thought. When this thread was started, I thought that I had some good information and a good case in point to reference regarding fitting those odd shaped horses, only to discover (thank all of you who imparted wisdom on this subject) that I likely fit the horse by having the tree custom fitted, and my thoughts on rigging position were dead wrong and inconsequential to the outcome. I am glad that the situation worked out for the benefit of the horse and owner despite what I thought I knew! It goes to show that what we think we know, even if we have experience to back it up, may not actually be fact. I always liked the 3/4 and 7/8 rigging positions best as a cowboy, but thought as a saddle maker that I needed to change based on what I had read. Now with more reading and thought on the subject, I am headed back to what I inherently felt was right. I have been seeking out information on rigging position as well as how to attach the rigging to get more even pressure on the bars, and am glued to the forum looking for more tidbits of knowledge. I hope that I can remain open minded, and encourage everyone else to consider the same- it is when we think we have it all figured out that we stop learning! Chuck

Thank you for the tips- visiting your shop reminds me of visiting Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital after my freshman year in vet school- they said hello, then put me to work recovering race horses from anesthesia. It was pretty much "get in this padded stall with drunk horses and try to keep them down as long as possible, then help them stand up without getting killed!" I would be happy to rub edges and sweep floors, especially if I got to learn something along the way , Chuck

Very nice looking saddle- I really like the seat pocket, it looks like a really comfortable ride! I wish I could get my edges to look that nice, Chuck

I'm somewhat green as a saddlemaker myself, so I will leave the constructive critique to the many more experienced posters available on LW. It looks to me like you did a very nice job, especially for just the second one. Maybe some of the experts will chime in here and let the learning begin. I sure have learned a lot from what critique I have received on my posts, Chuck

This one was a few years ago- it was my first in skirt rigging, my first rawhide cheyenne roll, and my first braided welt. I ride this one a lot starting colts and training- I couldn't get the cowboy out of me completely, so consequently the bowman reining type tree with strings and rawhide! Any feedback much appreciated! Chuck

I rode broncs for quite a few years, and have seen the beating a halter can take in regular use. If you are using 8-9oz tooling leather on top, then I would recommend the 8-9oz latigo liner, at least for the bottom center piece (between the jaws) and the throatlatch and buckle parts- you don't want it to break the first time a pick-up man dallies up to a big bronc and starts dragging him towards the stripping chute! I like the chap leather idea, but would probably use 12oz or so for the tooling parts if I was using that for a liner, Chuck

I'm not sore, just didn't want you to think I was wasting your time- I appreciate the help, Chuck

Thank you very much for the critique- that is exactly what I am looking for. The skirt pattern and tooling aren't my preference- the guy I made it for wanted it that way. He was also adding more oil because he wanted it darker- I refused to do final coloring and oiling for him because I know how hard headed he is, and knew it wouldn't turn out like he wanted no matter what, so I left that in his court. I personally prefer rounded skirts front and back. Thank you for the feedback- I will try and post some others for additional critique as well. I figure that the more experienced feedback I get, the more I will learn and the faster I will get better, Chuck

Thank you for the link- I do use the search button, quite a lot in fact, was just looking for as much info as possible. As I mentioned in the other post regarding "bulk", I had done quite a lot of research on the issue- Denise asked me to post it, and I did. I don't want to rehash things or waste anyone's time, just like to learn as much as possible, Chuck

Thanks for the info- I didn't find that thread when searching. Seems like lots of good and highly variable opinions on the subject. My grandfather jerked the fork off of a couple saddles, ripped the rigging out of a couple more, and yanked a couple horns off as well living the cowboy life. He loved an association tree with a 3/4 rig, and the front rigging leather had to go around the ring and clear over the fork. Of course, he was always riding rough horses for people while still doing his everyday cowboy work, which likely made him prefer the association rig. It sure is fun reading the different opinions and experiences here. There are a lot of really good makers that have tons of cowboy experience as well- I think this makes a great combination for excellent saddles, Chuck

Thank you for the reply- would you mind elaborating on how you choose your piece of leather and how you apply it? Does it change how many pieces you use in your ground seat construction? I am curious to give it a try if you don't mind helping me out some, Chuck

I have another need to be educated- sure are a lot of them! What are your preferences between using a seat strainer vs an all leather ground seat? Anyone with long-term experience making and riding all leather ground seats? Do they stretch and sink over time? How do they hold up? I have always used seat strainers (now have built about a dozen saddles) but am interested in what others think now that I saw in an old thread that mentioned the all leather ground seat. Please enlighten me, Chuck

Hello all, Denise asked me to pose a question that I had posed to her and Rod, to see what we could learn about the theory of "bulk" under the rider's legs. What does everyone think about the significance of the differing thickness from the rider's perspective of an in skirt rigging vs a flat plate rigging? Personally, I ride both several times a week and don't really notice the difference, but admittedly am focused on training the horse more than how the saddle feels, and don't profess to be the most sensitive individual. If my south end isn't sore, I don't notice! I agree with Bruce as well that the leg cut in skirts isn't of much use (contrary to the one saddle photo I put in the gallery for critique- if the client wants a leg cut, I put in a leg cut). It sounds great in theory, but do we actually give upper thigh cues to the horse? Or does the horse just feel our weight distibution change and react accordingly, especially when we cue with consistency? I can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts and see what I can learn, Chuck

I am new to the forum, and have just started posting- thought I better get myself out there to get critique and learn, Chuck

Well said- I agree that tree fit is by far the more important of the two regarding rigging position and the tree fit. I was only suggesting rigging position could also be an important factor with horses having very long shoulder blades. I have an additional question for the tree makers- when you use products such as the equimeasure (which is what I used in this instance) where do you place the front of it? I followed the instructions and placed it just behind the caudal and proximal end of the scapulas. On this mare, if I hadn't set the rigging position ahead of a full double, considering her shoulders and large barrel, the bar tips would have been a good twelve inches forward of the end of the scapulas, or the cinch would have had to shoot forward at about a 45 degree angle. This particular mare had a short back to go with long shoulder blades and a large barrel. It seems to me that the front of the bars would have had to be shaped much differently to set comfortably in the more forward position on her shoulders compared to if the tree was to set just behind her shoulders. I would love to hear more opinions on this- should the tree be on or behind the shoulders, or does this it matter one way or another? Some horses do seem more interested in bucking when something is on there shoulders, but this could have more to do with poor bar fit and uneven pressure than the fact that there is pressure on the shoulders. The mare I built the saddle for wouldn't even lope without bucking with several other saddles, and now goes comfortably even on a riding trip across several western states last summer- I readily admit this could be more due to the custom bars or even accident than my logic. I am anxiously awaiting more expertise and experience on this topic to expand my limited knowledge (admittedly anecdotal as well). Thank you for the experienced input, and I love these forums, Chuck

This is my first time replying to a post on here, so apologies for mistakes up front- I am also not claiming expertise, just offering up my one experience. I am a Vet and a novice saddlemaker- I have built about a dozen saddles now, and one was custom made for a horse similar to yours. I purchased a mold that you heat up in the oven, and then fit to the horse when it is standing square (I can't remember the name- equifit or something like that). I then sent it to a tree maker, and had the tree made to fit the horse. The second and probably most important part of the equation was rigging position relative to the very long shoulder blades in such horses. I had read an article that Al Stohlman included in his first volume of saddlemaking encyclopedia pertaining to rigging position on long shouldered horses. In looking at your horse, his shoulder blades are pretty long. On the saddle I made for a similar horse, I had to make my rigging position forward of a full double to keep the bars just behind the tips of the shoulder blades in order to fit the horse. I used a three-way rigging plate, just to give the owner options should she use the saddle on other horses. It worked out well- fit the horse well and the owner was happy, but without considering rigging position as well as tree bar fit, I don't think I would have been so lucky. I just wanted to add to the discussion that it can be done, but also can be difficult, and expensive for a single horse. Anyway, for what it is worth, my two cents, Chuck

I am new to the forum, and am looking for help finding a good hand-made tree maker to purchase trees from- any help welcomed!