Jim March

Mr Ghormley, I didn't mean to link to your website in order to critique you or your gear. Far from it. We agree completely that the Prairie Twist is a serious benefit of crossdraw rigs in general and it is known to have been used in the Old West. My problem (and I do mean MY problem, for ME not you) is that I'm in the design stages of making a holster meant for "street carry" - meaning daily CCW or open carry - that can be adjusted as a crossdraw rig. Three days ago I finished a proof-of-concept working prototype: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=24417 As you can see, it can be set up much like yours is. People who carry "on the street" daily are spending a lot more time with their rigs than the cowboy action crowd. Worse, we might have to execute a draw "for real" against a real threat, not a timer. I feel that it's important to inform any potential customer (once I get to that point) about the risks of the Prairie Twist draw and risks associated with other "unconventional carry methods" such as appendix carry (which can point a barrel at your femoral artery on the strongside draw if you're sitting down). I don't think such warnings are near as critical in the world of cowboy action and stage leather because safety issues in both venues are monitored much more closely to say the least.

Plastic holsters like the Blackhawk Sherpa, Fobus and the like have the ability to adjust the tilt angle to the user's needs. But, they're plastic. We haven't had a really adjustable leather outside-the-waist rig...until now. This is an early prototype of a holster I made three days ago and have been wearing since. The cosmetics are not where I want them to be, I still need a better edge trimmer and stitch groove tool. This is a "working prototype/proof-of-concept" only...but it DOES work! All of these pics are of the same holster, same belt mounting hardware, zero changes except adjustment. In this pic we see my personal favorite carry setup, a high-ride crossdraw: Here it's set up for a more traditional low-riding crossdraw: Here's a strongside setup with an FBI forward tilt - note how the tilt angle is going completely the other way: Here we see it still forward-tilt a bit, higher-ride, carried high and forward in an appendix-carry mode. Many other positions are possible! So how does it work? Well there IS some kydex involved - two thin strips about 1/2" wide, thick .125" grade for strength with holes up and down their length. Each hole is a potential mount point for one of the belt connectors. There's eight positions on the triggerguard-side strip, eleven on the sights-side. Those thin black strings you see dangling on three of the above photos are used only when dialing in the adjustments - once you have it where you want it, you cut those off. Here's a series of three pics showing how a belt mount is attached to the holster. Step one, the "adjustment string" (thin black string in this case but anything will do - fishing line, whatever's handy) is strung through one of the kydex mount points: As you can see, the kydex strip is sewn onto the core holster. A loop of the 550 paracord is pulled through: ...and then you pull the rest of that side's belt mount buckle through the loop and cinch tight: My original "blueprint" for this called for a series of metal rings but the kydex strip probably works better: all the lacing together holds it steady so it's more stable, and it can't rust or go all green in the case of brass: As far as I know, this design is completely unique to me. So it's licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 license: http://creativecommo...nses/by-nc/3.0/ Read: feel free to make one for personal use, credit me if you share the design and drop me a line for low-cost commercial licensing fees.

I had a talk with an attorney friend on this point, one who knows product liability fairly well. In my case I'm particularly worried because some of the positions on the belt my setup allows are not just unconventional but have some extra hazards. Muzzle pointed slightly into the hip area when seated for example, or off-hand draws that cause the muzzle to cross not just your body but dangerous areas of your bod - femoral arteries, lower gut, genitals, etc. Providing explicit warning as to the hazards and benefits of each possible option IS a defense against getting successfully sued. It does help in court. Stands to reason, that's likely why the most lawsuit-adverse gun manufacturer (Ruger) does the infamous "billboards" on the barrel. So...if you can't afford insurance, you might want to spend the time to do a written or video manual of operations, optimal draw types and safety information. Do it as a video, post it on youtube, put a link on a piece of paper with the holster. Or put the video on a CD. Whatever. I have it on good authority it'll help.

The Prairie Twist Draw is insanely dangerous and is flat banned at every sporting event and shooting range in the world, as it should be. It must never be practiced with a loaded gun, ever. But...there's times it can save your life. Example: you're carjacked from the passenger side of the car. You're either the driver or passenger, you're carrying crossdraw and you're right-handed. You have to use your right hand to fend off the attack while doing a Prairie Twist draw to bring the gun to bear against the threat. If you attempt a strongside draw you won't be able to bring the gun to bear without it first getting grabbed, bludgeoned or knifed. Another example: as a biker I face the very real possibility of being deliberately crashed into so as to rob me - this happens. I may end up with a broken right arm. In which case the Prairie Twist can save my butt. It's absolutely necessary to know about the Prairie Twist and practice it DRY...but never, ever with live ammo because it's the single most dangerous draw there is. Primer-only loads at the most.

If you very clearly warn people as to the known hazards up front, I strongly suspect that's going to help considerably if an issue comes up later.

I full well realize that - my own daily carry piece is an SA wheelgun (Ruger New Vaquero in 357). But when sweeping body parts as crucial as those, I'm a "belt and suspenders" kind of guy - I don't want my finger on the trigger while doing so, period. I also intend to make and at some point sell holsters of this sort that fit, say, Glocks where the warning will need to be pretty damned clear.

I'm paying attention too. I'm designing a setup that allows extreme adjustability of both the ride height and tilt angle...which means from some positions, the draw could easily sweep your own body parts, esp. from a seated position or while drawing from the off-hand. One example would be an off-hand draw from a crossdraw, also known as the "prairie twist draw": http://www.willghorm...fCrossDraw.html - in the second pic, that draw IS going to sweep both femoral arteries, his male bits and/or his lower guts, and the damnfool has his finger already on the trigger. With no warning on this page as to the hazards. THAT is problematic. In fact, the first pic has a problem too where his off-hand isn't being held behind (or worst case, above) the area the muzzle will sweep on the draw. Not as big a problem but still potentially trouble. SERIOUS warnings about both the advantages and hazards of this sort of thing will have to be made clear...and such issues exist for other positions besides crossdraw. I'm at a point where I'm thinking I'll need to cut a video explaining the pros and cons of each possible position, phrase it as a legal warning, stick it on a small 2gig or so USB flash memory stick and put that in it's own small pocket sewn onto the back of the holster. And I don't mind if anybody else uses that idea (my video when I do finally make it, well that's another story ).

Well there's good news and bad news. The good news is, I found out my current holster for my Ruger single action WILL retain the gun in the event of a motorcycle crash. The bad news is, I found out my current holster for my Ruger single action WILL retain the gun in the event of a motorcycle crash. Sigh. Wasn't too bad...about 20mph tops. Went down on my right side which would have been REAL ugly if I'd been wearing it strongside. As is, the high ride crossdraw was a total non-issue as far as the gun being pushed into me goes. No broken bones, just bruises it looks like, and the bike is self-fixable. Made it the remaining four blocks home, slow, rear brake out, some dings here and there. Grrr. Sun in my eyes, heavy gravel mid-corner left over from road construction. Anyways. The type of hit should have jarred the piece loose and didn't. Perfect, given that it's a non-strap type. I already have more materials plus a groove tool for the next iteration...but it'll be a few days, right arm is sore as hell.

OK. First, I appreciate the critique. I realize these are very early draft stuff and that it needs a lot of work from here - starting with the stitching process. With that said, I've been wearing the rig for my SA revolver absolutely daily for three months. It's doing fine. I plan to use a thicker liner next time, without doing suede-side against the gun. I plan on doing a lot of testing including making several and handing them out free to daily CCW guys here in Tucson. The strap system has seen zero stretch whatsoever to either the leather or paracord parts. That's how I normally wear belts...sadly, it's how I'm shaped at the moment (sigh). I've gone to a thicker belt than what was pictured there and I'm going to make a real gun-qrade belt next. With a 42oz gun, that's just crucial. For something saner like, say, a Glock 17 (fully loaded about 30oz) it's even easier. The rings are solid brass and show no sign of verdigris. They're also brazed and ground so that there's no visible seam whatsoever. As to cord stretch, it's paracord 550. Even if it does stretch a bit, the buckle arrangement immediately takes up any slack. The newer strap system can be easily removed and each one will come with a couple of spare straps. As to what it's for. First, the seriously high ride height available means it can be worn in ways few other rigs can. High and forward crossdraw is my favorite but there's others. These "very high position" setups aren't bothered much by the admitted extra thickness of the buckle. The main "anti-thickness" measure is that I'm not stacking key "fat points" like the cylinder of a wheelgun or the broader area around a covered DA triggerguard on top of the belt. Esp. with revolvers, that seems to help with how it feels.

My understanding so far is that most of the stitch grooves people are doing are formed by pressing a line into the leather while wet. The other alternative would be "cut" (or "gouged") grooves in some fashion. The latter would work on dry leather, I am assuming the "pressed" type would be difficult at best with dry leather. Which type are people using? That problem vanished completely when I went to the tapered straps. The straight straps I started with had a bit of "pulling" problem - not too bad mind you, but annoying. My first try at a solution involved stitching patterns into the strap to give it "traction grooves" a bit like a car tire. That got messy fast. The tapered strap was the solution. Oh, and it doesn't actually collapse very much at all. Remember, I'm using a double-thickness throat plus a liner. It's still fairly stiff and holds it's shape well when the gun is out. One-handed re-holstering is no problem at all.

Well I agree completely that this sort of "lace stitching" isn't going to cut it. That's absolutely not going to happen again. And like I said, I have a much smaller set of drill bits for the dremel now, and assuming I can get at least a bit of groove going to recess the stitching into it'll be a big improvement. The next version I'm planning will be even more off-the-wall: a leather holster that can be adjusted near-infinitely for both "tilt angle" and ride height. Step one is just a simple fold of leather with two stitch lines, one to the edge and one formed to the gun. Step two sews small metal rings in a line facing "outwards", sewn to both the inner layer of leather (probably lined under that) and to each other. Step three adds a top-plate that also encircles the throat, covering the two lines of rings yet allowing access to them from the sides. This "top plate" also hides the "interior sew line" as seen in picture 1, and can contain decorative elements as desired. Step 4 adds cord to form the belt loops that buckle across the top, using a tapered leather strap through two metal rings. The cord can be paracord 550 or any decent equivalent, and works the same way the strap arrangement works on my "mark 1" and "mark 2" variants photographed. The inset picture bottom-right shows how each cord side links to one of the holster's rings; these cords can be taken off at any time and re-connected elsewhere, allowing near-infinite adjustment of both ride height and tilt angle. If I'm right, this critter ought to have at least a vaguely "old west" look to it, yet have the kind of tilt adjustments normally seen on junk like a Blackhawk Serpa yet hug the belt and body MUCH closer in a real leather holster. Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/ Read: feel free to make one for personal use, credit me if you share the design and drop me a line for low-cost commercial licensing fees. I hope to have the time to build this for real next week, meanwhile all comments on the design are welcome. If I can pull this off, it'll absolutely spank the adjustment range possible in, say, a Blackhawk Sherpa or the like while hugging tighter to the body, it'll stay on the belt in stronger fashion (harder to just rip off like you can a Sherpa, Fobus, etc.) and it'll be leather instead of plastic. One more real oddity. This thing will be able to be worn in a bunch of different locations, from crossdraw all the way through to SOB and everything in between. I plan on doing a video showing the pros and cons of each type of carry and draw, put that on a small USB flash memory stick and put that in it's own pocket in the back of the holster along with a written manual and possibly more.

To me, the advantage of a leather holster is that it has some flex to it - if I wanted something stiff as a board I'd use kydex. With the holster design I've been working on lately, I haven't wet down the leather at all. I'm using two layers of 4-5oz stuff and a "strap it to the belt" system that so far as I'm aware is unique. This is the one I'm using for daily carry right now on my personal gun: You can see better how these work with the pics I took of one for a friend's Ruger P85, which is a fairly heavy gun (Ruger's first centerfire auto): It buckles onto the belt. The cross-strap that goes through the double-ring buckle is tapered so that it resists pulling out. The entire rig can be taken on and off the belt without removing the belt or taking the gun out of the holster, a good thing in AZ where public locker storage at courthouses and the like is mandated by law. This next shot shows how high these ride, in this case with the whole triggerguard above the belt-line, plus this rig is an even more extreme "body hugger" than most pancake setups: I full well understand that these aren't "pro quality" and I'm not selling anything yet. The next version I'm about to do will come closer as I have some better edging tools, I know how to do real stitching, I have some much smaller drill bits for the holes(!) and so on. But here's the kicker. Because this system tensions across the body of the holster and helps retention, it doesn't need to be "boned". In construction methods it's closer to an old west "California slim" type holster than anything modern. As I've worn the "yin-yang special" over the past 2+ months it has subtly molded itself to me - there's no glue and the leather is just dyed and waterproofed over the original veg-tan. There's obviously some downsides to this sort of "dry construction" - I can't awl-punch the leather, I have to dremel it, and doing grooves for the stitches will be rough although not completely impossible I don't think? My question is, what are the other downsides to this sort of construction method, if we assume that retention of the gun is already more than adequate (it is!). Are there going to be durability issues? Are there other "gotchas" I don't know about yet, considering these are basically my 5th and 6th holsters respectively? I'm worried about what I don't yet know that I don't know...if that makes sense.

First leather holster I ever did. Please don't laugh...it DID work .

Is anybody else pre-drilling holes with a dremel tool? When I first did this my smallest drill bit was too big. I finally found a set of "sub-caliber" drill bits - shaft fits in the most common dremel "chuck adapter" but the actual drill is much smaller, perfect for stitch size holes. No jabbing with an awl needed and the stitching can be done with any standard pair of needles big enough for the thread. So far I've been using mine by hand but I'm going to score the small "drill press adapter" next, less than $40. I still won't be able to use it on all the holes though, some I do freehand while the leather is folded around in a holster shape so that I drill two layers through in the proper "curve". In other words, if one piece of leather is going to be stitched to another while they're folded around the gun in the final design, drilling both while they're flat won't work. You have to drill while they're folded and that means freehand dremel (drilling on pre-marked dots!) versus a drill press.

Yeah, only reason I mention it is NAA's forced recall of wallet holsters some years back that featured a hole in the middle where you could get to the trigger.

One point...if it's possible to fire the gun with the wallet around it, you've just run up against US NFA1934 rules and made an "any other weapon - disguised weapon" that needs special paperwork and a $200 tax stamp. Some states then have more limitations or in some cases bans. If however the gun has to be pulled out of the holster in order to fire, you're fine.

I posted this to one other place, a general gunnie forum I frequent. It's gotten some additional discussion, clarification and pics: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401582 As far as I'm aware my belt attachment system is unique (not to mention universal to any belt width). If I can get this "multi-ring attach point setup" working, it'll be even moreso . I'm considering solid strips of either stainless or brass instead of individual rings, to spread the "stretch stress" over many more stitches and leather. Most people will set it up how they like it and leave it that way...I can see it getting distorted over time. I might even do a solid strip of metal across the front covered in leather as shown, with the holes each side, paint the metal and then cover it with the outer leather piece as shown. The kicker there is, I could drill'n'carve patterned holes through that sheet of leather that would show the painted metal underneath...say, paint the metal red, then carve cougar pawtracks with claws through the leather cover sheet so that the pawtracks appear red? Offer different tracks/colors as options? I don't think I'd do stone inlay like on mine for anybody else. Too much risk of it breaking. If it happens to me, no problem, I'll just rebuild it :D.

I posted a bit ago about my "weird rig for a weird gun" - basically a semi-western-style critter that grabs the belt with a unique buckle setup. There's two problems with it: the basic quality isn't yet where I want it to be due largely to lack of tooling (typical newbie thing probably) and worse, I didn't get the "tilt" designed in quite the way it turns out I need it. I'm now in the second iteration of this design; in the first I had tried to get it adjustable between two different "tilt angles", one for a strongside forward-tilt and one crossdraw back tilt. This first gen was a failure strongside because it was just too high. Now with the second, I've got a problem whereby the one locked-in tilt angle isn't quite right. Here's the "mark 1": By switching the "tilt strap" end closest to the camera between the upper and lower diamond conchos with a screwdriver, the tilt angle could be set either of two ways. But again, the lower tilt location (for a strongside forward tilt "FBI style") was a failure due to the height being just too high. In crossdraw however it worked very well. So I rebuilt it as a crossdraw-only in the mk2: This was better but still problematic. Still some QC issues although at least I got a good liner in there, and the tilt angle was still fractionally off. So I pondered a bit, looking for a way to get serious about "tilt adjustments"...and I think I've got it. Step one is just a simple fold of leather with two stitch lines, one to the edge and one formed to the gun. Step two sews small metal rings in a line facing "outwards", sewn to both the inner layer of leather (probably lined under that) and to each other. Step three adds a top-plate that also encircles the throat, covering the two lines of rings yet allowing access to them from the sides. This "top plate" also hides the "interior sew line" as seen in picture 1, and can contain decorative elements as desired. Step 4 adds cord to form the belt loops that buckle across the top, using a tapered leather strap through two metal rings. The cord can be paracord 550 or any decent equivalent, and works the same way the strap arrangement works on my "mark 1" and "mark 2" variants photographed. The inset picture bottom-right shows how each cord side links to one of the holster's rings; these cords can be taken off at any time and re-connected elsewhere, allowing near-infinite adjustment of both ride height and tilt angle. If I'm right, this critter ought to have at least a vaguely "old west" look to it, yet have the kind of tilt adjustments normally seen on junk like a Blackhawk Serpa yet hug the belt and body MUCH closer in a real leather holster. Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 license: creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/ Read: feel free to make one for personal use, credit me if you share the design and drop me a line for low-cost commercial licensing fees. I hope to have the time to build this for real next week, meanwhile all comments on the design are welcome.

Cool, but over the last couple of days I've come up with something that's really over the top. See...an earlier prototype was set up so I could adjust it to being either a crossdraw like you see here, or strongside with an FBI forward tilt. Except the latter didn't work out - the holster was simply too high for strongside to work right. In crossdraw only does it work, it's extremely high-ride which is what you want. The whole cylinder is above the beltline so it conceals under a street-length jacket. Even the various pancakes out there don't ride as high as this critter. I think I've just worked out how to do another variant where the strap mounting locations are almost infinitely adjustable...at least eight different positions each side, allowing fine adjustment of both ride height and "tilt factor". And still look pretty damn good. I've also got ahold of some much finer and higher quality Dremel drill bits so the stitching will be much more pro-looking, less like big crude lacing. I even managed to find a wonderful decorative-pattern version of 550 paracord that looks so much better than the black it's not funny. Should have it all together in a couple of weeks...buried in a big project right now.

I've only done one myself, for a high-cap 9mm mag. I wanted something that could come on and off the belt without unbelting. So I used a clip on the bottom that can double as a keychain anchor, and once unsnapped lets the mag carrier come right off the belt. I also used a lacing pattern "stitch" instead of traditional stitching because I like how it looks. The admittedly strange "upper bulge" area keeps it pointed slightly away from the body and gives it a bit of a "high ride" effect. It also doesn't care what width belt you use.

Do that and it's round inside, not hex inside. Trust me, it matters. I could try and find a 6" long socket and drill through most of it, but it's damned hard metal. So what I've done instead is put a short section of 7mm socket inside of a mild steel tube. That works.

I've never seen one that long, not with an internal hex structure the full length. I'd love to get one like that...any idea where one would be?

This is my attempt at something "vaguely old-west looking" yet allows for a modern "high and tight" crossdraw carry. The piece in question is a Ruger New Vaquero in 357, with some fairly radical sights requiring custom leather. The belt mounting system is possibly unique...two straps go under the belt each side and then meet in the middle across the holster, using a "buckle" with infinite adjustment possibilities. In short, it "grabs" the belt and "clings" tighter than even a pancake design can. These are still "early prototypes"...I need to find a better-looking cord instead of paracord, for starters, and right now all the leatherwork is done "dry". The one for my SA is fully lined, no threads touch the gun which was a breakthough. And I've found a method of adding decor that is...probably unique? It was my way of saying "I'm not a stereotypical right-winger" . The taper in the strap gives it a strong resistance to coming slowly unbuckled. To answer the inevitable "what's in the tube" question...note that I straightened the rear aperture after taking this pic... It's a homebrew clone of the Goshen Enterprises "Hexsite" made for Glocks and such and yeah, it works. http://www.goshen-he....com/index2.htm And this is the same basic design for a friend's "bottom-feeder":