sepulverture

Paul, That's what I was afraid of. I have sewn in the tongue, but as you said without quite the amount of finesse that could have been achieved without the bellows tongue. Oh well, it will work and I am not being paid to make these boots so they will serve as a lesson in how to handle future boots. Thanks for taking a look and kind regards, Nick

I decided to add links to some photos to make it easier for you to understand what I'm talking about. I'm afraid my explanation might not have been terribly clear. The style of boot I'm making again is a galosh style vamp, with the quarters placed inside the vamp, rather than outside as shown in these photos. Once I get photos of the actual boots I'm making taken I will post those to be more specific. http://img.nobodybuy.com/2010/12/22/hurricanedragonshoes/0x0_p1303973/handsewn-leather-boots.jpg http://www.venice-italy-veneto.com/images/mens-dress-shoe-crockettJoneswestminster79.jpg This being said I haven't seen many examples of boots where the quarter is stitched inside the vamp that have full bellows tongues, but maybe that's because I don't know the name for this style of boot (quarter inside vamp) and haven't been able to make exact searches. Is it because it's very difficult to make a full bellows tongue for this sort of boot?

No worries Paul. I have sort of jury rigged a set of full bellows tongues to these boots, and they seem to be work although I'm slightly worried about small gaps at the bottom of the tongues where they are attached to the inside of the vamp. Once it is lasted and used for a while I suppose I will be able to see if there's some way to improve upon the design. I am making two pairs of boots that call for this same tongue, so I am trying two different ways unless someone can offer any advice on how to do it well. Regards, Nick

Hello all! I am making a pair of galosh style boots with the quarter stitched under the vamp, and I am having trouble making a full bellows tongue for this style of boot. I have made full bellows tongue for galosh style boots where the quarters were stitched on top of the vamp, but I have never done so for quarters stitched UNDER the vamp. Please assist. Thank you and kind regards, Nicholas

Mr. White thank you for the comment! I have two pairs of boots, a pair of shoes, and a pair of fur slippers in the pipeline now, so you can see photos of those when they're all done.

It seems that I have forgotten how to measure/calculate the SLL so I can make a mean forme. I have done so a few times, but the last time I did so was last year and I can't seem to find the reference material I was using before to make the calculation. It should be mentioned that I am currently living in China, and that the size of the last I am using does not in fact correspond with the number written on it. My foot size is too large for normal lasts produced here, so they had to custom make one for me and it doesn't have the right number on it. Also I am making a pair of shoes for someone else, and the lasts I had purchased for her lack sizing information. Please advise. Thank you and kind regards.

Wow Nick, you've got some skills, I'll say that. Very Good! Fantastic! These really look good. Your insole looks really good. You took those notes impressivly. I like your french turned top line. And I like your lacing technique and the tongue. That's an interesting sole material. What is it? Chrome leather? First of all let me say thank you for the compliments, it is encouraging to hear them! I decided that the british ladder lacing would be appropriate since they are a scottish styled shoe through and through except for the slightly raised heel. The visible sole material you're asking about is a thin layer of chrome leather that I used before for making a bag. It is sturdy but very pliable and I decided to try using it to add traction since I don't have any rubber sole material right now to cap with. I do see what you mean about the short counter/heel stiffener. It ought to be about 1 7/8" to 2 1/8" above the feather, depending on the size of the foot. You've also got a pretty good edge on them. Did you sand that by hand? When you say sand them, what do you mean exactly? Sand what? Where? All sanding was done by hand except for some shaping work that I did on the heels Is that artificial sinew you have there for thread? Yes it is. It looks like you've used that same thread for the whole boot? That is correct I'm sure you're just glad the have what you do. Do you have any choices of thread so as to change the stitching, to attain greater water resistancy? (I don't say water proof. No such thing). There are good combinations of which leathers and which treatments wiil provide the most water resistancy,but technique can do alot in that regard also. I have though carefully about this, and ultimately that's what lead me to use the artificial sinew. There are some choices, although not very broad ranges. Nothing that would give me the chance to walk into the leather working shops and say "i need xxx linen at .yyy diameter". There are a few choices available, but not a huge selection, and I suppose I could do with trying out different threads to see what works for me. What sort of thread material mixtures would you suggest for heavy-duty boots? One thing about he boots that I made is that the thread is doubled up so that there are 4 pieces of thread running through each whole, instead of 2 thicker threads. If I may address the stitching you've done on these: There indeed is a certain visual style to this size thread size on something for outdoor wear, but it ought not to be used on basic component seams. It's also likely to be subject to more abrasion, because of standing so proud. I can very well see what you're talking about when you mention the threads being subject to greater abrasion. There's evidence that you've done alot of stitching on leather, but for upper closing (where water resistancy is critcal) the holes and thread need to be smaller. The awl one uses has alot to do with this. I say awl, because the shape of the "hole" is important. It looks like you're making a round hole with a punch? On the layer of leather which is on top (where the holes are visible) I used a hole punch to make a neat looking round hold, and then on the layer below it where the holes are no visible I left them unpunched and then went back over each hole with an awl a hair larger than the needles I am using to punch the last holes. Try instead an awl, preferably with a tapered blade shape, so you make a cut like this / instead of a hole like this o. You can use a pattern wheel may have 8-10 stitches per inch (spi), as a guide, which should be about right for an ankle boot. A silver ink pen works good to reveal the stitch line on the dark leather, but baby powder will highlight it for you too. I will try to use a bladed awl when punching holes on my next boots. I recently hammered a new bladed awl and used new knife sharpening skills I've been trying to hone it to a near mirror finish as you suggested before. Another thing, use as small a thread as possible. One fear that I have about using thin thread thread is the chance of it wearing out and breaking more quickly. What are your thoughts about this? When I make my bags I use the same thread as what I used on these boots because the bags themselves are somewhat heavy (being made of 6~8oz full grain leather, and being large in dimensions and meant to carry a lot of stuff) so the thickness of the thread is important to them being rugged and able to carry a heavy load, so I just applied the same logic to the boots needing to have heavy thread to bear the stress of constant motion. What do you think? If this is what you can get, you could use the thread you have there and cut the length you need, and "untwist" and separate a few stands for your work, and then retwist and wax it closed. And of course the needle should be right for the hole you "cut", and the length of the stitch and distance from the edge adjusted. I understand what you are saying and will start to experiment with these ideas. I am very proud to have been involved with you as you made these. Thank you for the exchange. Thanks for being here and helping and supporting me with all the great information! I hope you will be able to accompany me on my next pair, which may in fact be for someone close to me and a different style that might be more up your alley. Good luck with you next projects. Paul

Paul, Good advice about looking for only 3 things to improve on the next pair. Incidentally I found my three while making these one: Lasting allowance, I will try a 30mm lasting allowance on the next pair, angle of holes when holing the holdfast, try to get a steeper angle so that when sewing the upper to the holdfast the stitches come out on the bottom of the boot so they aren't visible, unlike these ones where they came out just at the feather edge of the last and are partly visible, and finally when lasting the upper make sure that the counter is being lasted at the proper height on the last (these boots the counter ended up being pulled down too low, but I didn't realize that until I had already sewn the welt on. there are others, but those will be my main areas to focus on. Next up is a messenger bag that I cut out, but have been neglecting for a couple of months. Will make this to replace my leather backpack that I made for myself about a year ago. The backpack is in need of some revision to make it more convenient for daily use. Want to give my hands a bit of time to rest. After that I plan to make a set of hand rigs to help ease tension and damaged caused to my hands while working. After that (mid february-ish) I plan to make another pair of boots for myself after I have had the chance to wear these boots in a bit and find more weak points. I need to revise the process I used for making the heel stack, as the stacks I made turned out to be somewhat uneven across the contact surface of the heel (where the heel meets the sole) and those are translating into pressure points on my heel and arch. I plan to travel to Tibet some time in the next year as well, so I am thinking to make a third pair of boots in late spring that are more rugged with aggressive tread, possibly double vamp galoshes to make sure they are weather/water proof for doing some mountain climbing and exploration while there. I also plan to make a new trail backpack. The backpack I have now is essentially a trail bag, but the leather I used was heavy 7~8oz leather and it's a bit on the heavy side without cargo, so I either need to revise this one or just make a new one outright. Anyway this is turning into a bit of a novel, so here are the photos. Let me know what you think! Nick

Paul, I have finished the boots, as of about two days ago they are done with the exception of some minor tweaks, and finishing nailing down the heel stack of one of the boots. They turned out pretty well overall I think, but have some problems that need to be addressed in the next pair i make. The biggest problem i think is that when lasting the boots I pulled the counters too far down over the feather edge, distorting the whole shape of the boot just a little bit in the rear.They are completely wearable, and once the leather is properly broken in this problem will likely be alleviated, but it's causing a bit of pain on the back of my heel. Not a terribly big deal though. I will post up some pictures in the next few days, but I am done! And I am happy and getting lots of compliments about them. nick

Thanks for the holiday wishes Paul, I hope you and yours had a good season together. Christmas in China is a downright dreary experience, but fortunately I have the salts of the Earth to keep things in perspective. Thanks also for the compliments on my work. I was anticipating less, and was pleased to see that it turned out as well as it did. You are right though, the next pair will be an entirely different experience. I had a question though. When holing the insole for the second pair i tore out two of the holes with too much upward pressure, and was wondering if there are any effective ways to remedy this? I was thinking about skiving some sole leather to just the top grain and using the strongest contact cement i have to patch the area that tore out and then just using a strip of that pig skin to try to reinforce the area, but before doing so I wanted to consult you and see if you had any better suggestions? Thanks again Nick

Good news! First boot is done! Everything turned out quite well with the exception of the area around the welt. When I sculpted the holdfast I sculpted part of it wrong, so the welt didn't sit securely under the holdfast. When I sewed on the welt it sat good and tight against he side of the last on the vamp, but when I turned it down it did tear out a little bit as expected. It's not terrible though, and it's not really noticeable. I am concerned that he vamp will tear out, but not expecting it to for a fair while. Anyway, here are some pictures of the fist boot and the second one is well on it's way.

All of the test lasts I did used lasting allowances at least twice as long. Lesson learned for future endeavors. I think the book mentioned a 15 mm lasting allowance for economy when doing pattern designing for factories and the like, not sure though. Unfortunately about the types of tanning for leathers here chrome tan is pretty much the norm, with veg tan not being so widely available. The toe box will indeed be leather. I have already figured out what I will do I think. I am also wondering if having a welt made of heavier or stronger leather will help with the last allowance being damaged in some areas. I also figured out a potential solution to the potential for the holdfast to tear with use. I figure I can put a layer of pig skin over the whole insole but not overlapping the welt on the underside, and then stab holes in it that coincide with the holdfast, that way there will be an extra layer of stronger leather between the stitches and the holdfast, hopefully improving wear. Since it has a second layer of upper leather in the form of the 'brogue' toe cap I think it would already be able to hold it's shape fairly well, but aware that it's still going to be soft I planned to skive down some of my sole leather to an appropriate thickness, mull it for a while then let it dry for few hours so that it's moist all the way through, but not wet, then apply it like any normal toe box. If what I read is right then I don't need to cut the toe box to extend below the feather edge, right? Thanks for the compliment

I like the idea of a sealant behind the holes. A band of 1 1/2 to 2 ounce leather, skived along the edges, and glued in place would work also. I have used the silicon method that I mentioned before to back the stitching. I though hard about adding a strip of lining leather to help back it, but I decided against it because when I put it on the last the band was visible on the surface, but I think I will figure out a solution to this in my next pair. An inverted seam involves a seam allowance (say about 5mm) skived and stitched right sides together. Spread the seam allowance, glue it down, and press flat. I did the lining up how I mentioned before, but I think I misunderstood the concept of an inverted seam. However I think that the lining turned out alright. A bellows tongue is a good idea, but challenging. I've done a few. I think I more or less got the bellows tongue down here, but i didn't measure it perfectly, so the shape ended up a tad strange, and too wide at the top. A challenge they are indeed, but one that I fully intend to tackle again on my next pair. But you sure aren't afraid of challenges. Good on you. Can't grow without challenges and tribulations, right? On a side note, I am a little bit frustrated with the pattern makers book I ordered. It is a SUPERBLY HELPFUL read, to be sure, but it's advice on a 15mm lasting allowance ended up being a bad call. It is entirely possible that I measured the vamps wrong when I was making my patterns, but with a 15mm last allowance skived to a feather as suggested in multiple pdfs I have read my lasting pliers took a bite out of a few spots around the lasting allowance. Luckily each piece torn off the vamp was no more than 5-7mm each, and could still be worked around to get the thing lasted, but I have concerns for their durability once the welt is in place and the insole stitched. Will need to think of a workaround for this problem. As a result of the last allowance problem the whole upper went on slightly skewed and wrinkled a bit. I am hoping to work out these wrinkles when I give it a second lasting after adding the stiffeners and adjusting the liner, which bunched up around the top of the quarters a little bit. Pictures though are, as they say, worth a thousand words. Also an important question. Should the welt be made from upper leather? or sole leather? If my thinking is right it ought to be sole leather, but I'm not totally sure.

Hey Paul, thanks for the compliments! The stitch holes that are visible are actually only exterior holes. Since all of them are seams I only punched holes with the puncher on the outer layers of leather. The portions of the seams that are not visible (the under layers) are punched with a waxed awl to help keep out water and dust. Not perfect of course, but ought to help. Additionally I am going over all the seams on the inside with a sealant like silicon caulking or something along those lines. As for the liner I'm not exactly sure what is meant by an inverted seam, but I think I have an idea. Would you care to explain it for me though, just to be sure? As for the tongue I am thinking about a simple full-bellows tongue. Comfortable, and better water-proofing/wind-proofing.

Here is an update on my boots. I have mostly stitched together one boot, minus the backstrap, closing the quarters and one of the facings. I am also having a bit of trouble deciding how to make the lining. I am thinking two halves, a forepart and counter/quarter sewn together in the middle and doing making a pocket for the counter stiffener and closing at the top with something like a bead made of softer brown leather. Here are progress photos

Paul, I have been working on these boots. I have made standards and whatnot and have cut out all the piece, and begun stitching on them. Work is progressing a bit slowly at the moment, I picked up some commission design work for a financial company here, and they're keeping me busy at the moment in addition to my normal job but it's getting done. Attached are a few photos of my spread of leather cut-outs. The vamps are galosh style, with brogue style toe caps. I also made a set of patterns/standards for a brogue shoe.

Paul, I'm glad you're making some progress with the pattern making. What a great excersize to be tracing the shapes to get a feel for things. I thought it would be better to trace out designs on paper traces of the formes both to decide what look I want before proceeding with the rest of the construction but also to be able to keep a record of design potential for future projects. We can both learn a lot from my decision to do a balmoral boot since you also mentioned wanting to try your hand at making a pair of balmorals. I've been doing too many things at once, but am right now in a process of being videographed while boot making. My neighbor is doing this to pass some time. It's a pinch on my schedule, but a great opportunity. I don't know what he'll want to do with it. Perhaps you could get a copy of the video in the right format and post it to the HCC? I have finished the bag I was working on, just a very simple messenger style satchel. I will post some pictures of it later on. Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks Paul! Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!

Getting work underway on my boots. I have used the tape method of forme making, and cut out the forms and made a standard from them on heavy drawing paper. Before I do anything regarding that though I am trying different designs out on paper using the formes i cut, just tracing their shape onto sheets of paper and looking at different styles. I am thinking of going with a galosh style balmoral, since the construction would be comparatively easier than other styles because of the fewer number of seams and the straightforward construction of the shaft. I am thinking of adding elements of a monk shoe though in the form of buckle flaps that would go over the lacing.

Paul, I just wanted to pop in and leave a message to let you know I　ｈａｖｅn't vanished. I read the pattern making book almost cover to cover, and have a clear plan of action now. I am at the moment working on a handbag as a birthday present, which is nearing completion now and will get back to work on my boots. Nick

Paul, This presentation was wonderful, thank you for putting this together. By the way, it is Beijing not shanghai , but no worries! Thanks again Nick

Sorry to reply late here. The image you gave me here was informative, and gave me a lot of ideas about how to go about taking care of the vamp/counter cover around the heel of my boots. I have received the book from Tim, and am reading through it now. I expect to have a fair understanding of how to go about with the next steps of making the forms and what standards so I can get to work on the leather. Looking forward to the rest of the images you are putting together.

I tried to reply to this yesterday, but it got lost in cyberspace I quit in frustration. I understand, it happens in these forums sometimes. No worries. Patterning cowboy boots is really only done on the tops, and it relates primarily to the throat, or entry into the boot. Patternmaking for shoes, has way more going on, and I've done enough to see that, once again, there is more to it than meets the eye. Again, I get what you're saying. With any endeavor there is more than what is seen at a glance. Wouldn't the process of making formes the same regardless of what kind of boot you make, although the construction of the boot and whatnot may vary? Regardless it seems that steps taken to makes forms for a brogue or a balmoral ought to be the same as for a western cowboy boot or a loafer. This is again just observation at work, and I have little experience with forme making yet. I did get the stuff worked out with Tim to order the Pattern Making book by Frank Jones as you suggested, should be here this week. Once I have that in hand much will be revealed I'm sure. It looks like your inseam is the approach you were describing earlier. And I guess it would work for a cemented construction sole attachment. My first thought is that the sheer factor and torque from walking would be hard on the holdfast, but I'm just looking at it critically. The seam isn't exactly what I described above, since it is still only stitched on the outside of the holdfast. I just didn't trim down the vamp to be flush with the holdfast. Also since this was simple testing what I learned about forme making and turning them into standards and whatnot I i didn't want to waste leather by cutting out a welt and welting this tester. Turns out that the last that was made for me was too big with the spacers they put between the forepart and the (rearpart?) so I took out the spacer and put in a much thinner one according to the measurements I took (very rough, just the width of my finger which was exactly hwo much too long the last was with their spacer). Now that I have a much clearer idea about pattern making and whatnot I am starting to flesh out a design mentally and on paper before doing anymore cutting,and I also wanted to wait for the book to arrive before taking these boots and further. I am hoping to get them done by december though. A cold snap has just hit Beijing and this is undoubtedly ushering the winds down from siberia and all that that entails (and my current boots that I ordered online are starting to fall apart). Devilin or Thornton, I don't recall which of them, wrote on the subject of the angle of the inseam stitch in relation to the roll of the foot along the length of the insole, and the manner the stitches should be set to reduce the stress on each stitch so as not to put too much sheer on the holdfast. This sounds like a valuable bit of information and I will look into this as I move along. Speaking of which I looked into crinch nails but couldn't find any here, so I just got a bunch of long thin nails and clipped the heads off and bent them into U shapes, do you think this would be sufficient? I think I'll be working on my two pair of insoles this weekend, and I'll address that when I post pics. I'm looking forward to these, thanks.

Nick, I'm glad to read your response to my comments and advise. I've only begun to be confident enough of what I may know, to express my opinion in just the last couple of years. I've still got bruises to show for some of my lessons, but like you I try to think things through. I am glad to receive the advice. It is not common that experienced people will sit down and take time from their days to share what they can, so whatever you have to offer is appreciated. As for the issue about confidence, I can understand that well enough. I remember the feeling when I started doling out critiques of other artists sketches and building up confidence in doing so gradually. I've spent time skimming Golding, but haven't really digested any of it. But I will be glad to do so when the time is right to anwser questions for you in the future, but I can't say how much value I'll be on some of the patterning stuff, as I am a western boot maker primarily. Western boots, European boots, Combat boots, whatever the style of boot is they all require patterns and standards, so I can't imagine that just because she design is different that means that the method of making the formes/patterns is terribly different. It seems that the method for creating the patterns are fundamentally the same, except that certain allowances need to be considered depending on the shape of the last. These are of course just observations of mine, and could be wrong. You've got a great learning attitude, and I'm very proud to have made your aquaintance. I've got a couple of pair of boots on the bench right now. And the insoles are about due for sculpting. I'll take pictures and post the process soon. Looking forward to seeing those pictures! Here are a few photos of my own. The insole I used was the first of my two holdfast test sculpts so the spacing is a not right, the more recent insoles have more evenly spaced holes set closer together like we talked about before. I am actually wearing this test shoe as I type this, and in wearing it I am very glad I decided to make a fitters model. It seems that the spacers that the last maker put in to make it fit my food have made the last too long, which is making the whole thing fit wrong! While holing the vamp i holed my thumb at the same time. It has also been a pleasure making your acquaintance

Nick, Whew! I'm afraid I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the length of our posts. We've got to do shorter ones, I'm startin' to get lost. Yeah we can keep our posts to shorter length, might be good to keep things more concise anyway Pattern Cutting-Step by Step Patterns for Footwear, edited by Frank Jones, (I mentioned in your other thread about Sheep Hunters boots) Also I highly recommend Tim Skrym's book Bespoke Shoemaking, both are available here: http://www.shoemakingbook.com/ (We're all together in this , you know) Two steps ahead of you on this one already there, Paul. I attempted to purchase the book, but paypal won't let me choose a shipping destination outside of the U.S. I have contacted Tim to try to find a solution to this problem, and I am currently awaiting his reply. On a side note, I have downloaded all available volumes of the Golding texts on shoe and boot making from the HCC library and am currently reading through vol.1. I decided to attempt to make formes based on Soule's system as outlined in vol.1 of the texts. I am mulling the leather I cut out based on those standards now and they are awaiting to be lasted to see what I come up with. I have high hopes for these as they produced fairly good looking results for this test, and if they work out then that means I have learned something valuable that I can run with. I will post pictures once it's done. You've demonstrated a skill at thinking things through, I'm really very impressed. But if you want to be successful in this effort, I believe you must follow the path of those who have gone before. I'll be of little help if you want to create a whole new way. (I don't know how much more help I can be, as it it is. But I am willing to help if you're will to get these text books.) I understand what you're saying here. While studying drawing and painting people said the same thing, so the point is well taken. Regarding the text books, the above paragraph explains my position with all that right now. I would not have a thing to say about your own ideas about stitching the inseam like you're thinking. I can only imagine problems. Many many shoes and boots, have been being made by hand by many many different people for many many years. What works is what works. Learn the fundamental ways to do it, and then, after totally understanding how, then you can begin to "play in the field of possibilities". Nothing really to add to what you're saying here. I can well imagine that people have had the same ideas I've presented here, but for some reason or another didn't run with it. Fundamentals are required to be successful in any endeavor, but experimentation is also important. I guess I will ultimately need to strike a balance between my desire to experiment, and keeping in with what has been proven to work. Also, any help that you can give it help well appreciated and I'm sure you can be of more help than you think (or at least more than modesty will let you state ) We'll keep it going. This is being good for me too.

Nick, my apologies for not replying sooner. It's hard for me to bring my full attention to the keyboard, especially when my wife is home. But bless her heart, I'm a boot maker by her grace, No worries, we all have lives and things to attend to beyond the forums. I am also not replying to your posts as quickly as I ought to (considering that you are taking a fair bit of your personal time to help me in my journey here). You are definitely right about one thing here. It is often by the good grace of others that we may pursue our ambitions (give her a big thanks from me! haha). I like your progress. It's good to have those two differnt degrees of curve in your awls. In time, their specific differences will become manifest, and you'll appreciate them anew, if you know what I mean, jelly bean. Yes I can see your point entirely. they have already proven to be useful in their own applications. The only point I'll make here is that you want to be careful to maintain an even 1.5 to 2 mm thichness on the feather edge. Too much thinner than that, in the wrong spot around the perimeter of the insole, can create a knife edge, if sweat should dry and stiffen the insole. And that's also why the "old dead guys", who wrote the "How to's" in the 19th Cenury, recommended brushing on repeated applications of Tallow, or rendered fat. Get the point? Yes the point is well taken. That's what the dubbin is basically, just a big slop of tallow that is orange and smells pretty. I was always curious about the feather edge, because it never really occurred to me why a full feather would be useful in this situation. I will keep a couple millimeters thickness on them. Now you're talking about a system. A system of measuring, pattern making and the tricky part, order of assembly. This is the fundamentals. It will be much easier for me to comment, when I know which or whose's system you're talking about. Did you get the Pattern Makers book from Nobel Press? It's value is tremendous from this point. The style you are describing is fundamentaly a Balmoral Style. There are specific drawings, and lines that are necessary for this style to be viable. (Frank discusses the Balmoral in the text mentioned above.) I'm extremely interested in this style myself, and want to try my hand at it sometime. But there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't really know where the challenging parts are but DW, who has made several, himself feels there's still more to figure out about how to control the fit and function in the patterning process. Knowing where the controls are is critical to understanding patterns for footwear also. Using the tape method of pattern making, will give you a chance to draw the pattern lines for the stlye you're considering. Unfortunately I have no idea about the different systems. I did a quick search for the patter makers book you are referencing here, but didn't come up with any useful results right away. I do have just about all of the videos available on the HCC, but none of them cover anything about patter making. Do you happen to have the authors name of the Pattern Makers Book? Regarding the style I suppose you could call it a balmoral style that I want to make, although with modifications (although looking at them it appears that the basic construction would be the same). Could you give me a breakdown of the 'tape method' of pattern making? Until we identify more about your pattern parts, I'll only comment on the insole, before we get any further away from it. On the insoles you've shown 'til now, you have made your holdfast go all the way around the heel. This is a method that does indeed have it's applications, like in European dress shoes. It's a classic. But not in work or outdoor boots in my opinion. I've seen many fault at the stitches around the heel. They break from exposure to many different elements. This style has a weakness at a critical spot. The heel of the foot flexes away from the heel of the boot with the greatest force at this point, where these stitches are all that's holding it together. My suggestion would be to plan on turning under; the lining, counter, and heel cover, and tackng it with either brass clinching nails, maybe wood pegs, or lastly iron clinching nails. I understand all you've said here. I was thinking about a lot of 'what if the stitches were to tear through the holdfast?' kind of questions, and I think I came up with a variety of possibilities. One idea I had was very simply to stitch the upper to the outside and inside of holdfast, so that the upper would be folded over the holdfast, and using the awl make holes on both sides of the holdfast, and run the thread through vamp(inside) - holdfast - vamp(outside) - welt (if what I just described to you makes sense), and then using some method (pegs, nails, or stitching) to fasten the upper to a thicker part of the insole on the inside of the holdfast somewhere. I also had the idea of making the insole two pieces. The thick heavy sole-leather material, and a second layer of vamp leather material sandwiched between that and the last which would be stitched together after the holdfast was made (so the holdfast is sculpted, removed from the last where the vamp material is applied to the upper side of the insole where the foot would rest, and then stitched together or cemented together). That way when the clinching nails, or stitching, or whatever would be done was done it would have that extra layer of unskived/unsculted leather to hold on to for added strength. These are just ideas though and I'm not sure how viable they are, although in theory I think they would work. It's likely the choice will be obvious when pattern making begins. But with a "hung lining", ie. one stitched at the top line and extending all the way to the insole, utilizing a "pocket counter", one just should be conscious to select leather for the greatest wear. I understand what you're saying about this as well, and this may ultimately be what I end up doing. I did think about stitching the counter directly to the lining after it was cemented, but that would require me removing it from the last which adds a whole bunch of possibilities to screw things up, so I am apprehensive about doing these. My lining though ought to be sufficient (at least for a first pair of boots). The lining material is roughly 1.5-2mm top grain, so it ought to be ok, right? Your spacing looks pretty good. DW showed me to do this. Take a narrow gauge nail about 1 1/4" long and bend it. And like cribbage, move it along after you make each hole. It will serve as a point of reference as you try to get the feel for "3 to the inch". Or use a marker along the ouside of the holdfast until eye begins to know it. From the apex of the curve of your toe, angle the path of the awl away from the center and not in towards it. If you do this about an inch and a half back from the middle, you'll have plenty of room for your awl holes there at the toe. I think I got the picture with what you're saying here, and I will try to remember these points when making my next holdfast. The cribbage pin idea is good also, and seems like it would be faster than marking out individual locations with a marker and measuring tape. I am trying to find information about patter making, and giving this a lot of thought before moving forward. I am not afraid of making mistakes, because after all this is my first pair of boots made in this style and mistakes are to be expected. It would be a miracle if none were made and they turned out all fancy and beautiful, but being something of a pragmatist I know this is not going to be the case from the outset. I just don't want to turn this dead mammals sacrificed skin into a pile of junk however, and feel it should be well thought through before cutting much more out of the hide. If you can provide me with the name of the author of the pattern makers book, or an amazon.com link (or a link to a downloadable pdf would be infinitely preferable since shipping is going to be a killer) then I can thumb through that and make better informed decisions regarding all of this. On the other hand I am really considering just throwing caution to the wind, and making a best guess set of patterns, stitching it all together and throwing it on the last to see what I come up with. Anyway thanks Paul for your time and help so far, I am looking forward to your next reply, and perhaps by then I'll have made up a fitters model to see where this is going. Nick