AZThunderPony

Thanks David, That was exactly what I needed. Much appreciated!! ;)S

I agree here and if we could have a 1/2 seat version tutorial from bones to end product that would be helpful too.. Thanks in advance ;)S

That link really helped me alot. However, I have a newbie question regarding leather strainers and thickness of ground seat. How many pieces of leather would be average to build up a 1/2 seat ground seat and how would you stretch the leather strainer for a 1/2 seat? Thanks guys! ;)S

I just recieved from Denise Nikkels a photograph of Paisano's tree that Rod built. It was shipped from Canada today. I will be detailing how I may go about building the saddle but the actual build won't be underway until fall or winter, however I will be working up a prototype of what I want (without nails, glue, tacks, etc) whereby I can use the tree on Paisano this summer to see how it is all going to come together. Don't worry folks I will make sure everything is lined up exact as if it were the final saddle. More on the tree can be found here: THE PONY EXPRESSION I'll be hitting you pro's up as I go along for advice if you don't mind. S Just a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. Thanks so much Rod and Denise, you guys have been wonderful to work with. I have to thank Dennis Lane and DaviD also for the time they spent with me last summer during their visit to the States.

I'll be moving very close to Old West Saddlery at the latter end of June. I plan to be spending some time there picking brain. ;)S

Good info, much appreciated. Learning new things all the time. ;)S

This is exactly the info I have been looking for. Very good thread. I also have archived it. However, some 30 years ago I stopped using neatsfoot oil to oil my saddles and equipment with because it rotted the thread out. I was told by what was then an old-timer saddler not to use it but to use pure Mink oil instead. I have used pure mink oil heated to a liquid form ever since and have been very happy with the results over the years. I'm curious if anyone uses mink oil instead of neatsfoot and if so why or why not? Any opinions on this? ;)S

How is the Mochila coming along? I would love to see your step by step project unfold. ;)S

Perfect! This goes right along with what I have been discovering. It gives me plenty of wiggle room for what I need and still end up with an authenitc version. ;)S

Thanks Chuck and Alan, Alan I will email you. Luckily I grew up a handy home builders daughter in the days when the builder did everything himself by hand with hand tools. Some of the tools if not the know how to build them are among my current stash. This type of info is exactly what I need to get going. And I agree the innitial investment will be more than my saddle could be built for by a good craftsman. My goal though is to become a craftsman myself of a specific product, not so much for income and more for functionality and availability. I have a job and I'm good at it. This will be more of a hobby and now that I no longer breed horses I can sink my teeth into it. I have a little leather working background from years past and have decided to build on it. I'm also an ex-professional artist and have been looking for a new medium to work in for a few years now. So here I go! :D Will be in contact to pick your brain. Thanks for the support and Chuck I'll be ordering those books as well as some dvd's that are out there as well. ;)S

Thanks to both of you Old Timer and Jon, The info is highly useful. Jon, I'll be in touch with Ghormley to see if he has any Hope saddle patterns, from his site I do not see saddle patterns, but maybe he does have them and just doesnt market them. I'll ask. Oldtimer Thank you so much for the kind words about my horse and project. Its going to be a very fun journey. I have been collecting photos of Hope saddles from times gone by to current reproductions and it continues to amaze me how each craftsman approaches the authenticity of the project differently. It tells me that there wasnt just one Hope pattern that makers followed. That the saddles were highly customized to the indivudal needs of rider, era, and work to be done. This opens up alot of room for creativity. I am guessing that in the 1800's era that assembly line saddles were not common? Any thoughts...? I have questions about how to go about obtaining appropriate leather quality. I am brand new to this craft so may be asking some pretty remedial questions here, so please bear with me. I have planned to buy from Hermann Oak so we have that out of the way. However, once I have my leather, and understanding that very little leather will actually go onto the tree, how to I begin to prepare my leather for the task at hand? I understand leather is soaked, stretched etc, but at what stages does one create the suppleness to the leather, patina etc.? ;)S

I will definately be riding my Spanish Mustang in an old time saddle. What do ya think? Can you visualize the minimalist Hope or Santa Fe on him? I plan to deck him out in fully 1800's period equipment and do exhibitions and long rides representing the horse of the past of which he is a decendent. Thanks for the offer, I'm certain I will be taking you up on asking questions. Very kind of you to offer. I will definately keep a photo log of my project and will share here as well as on my blog. ;)S

Hold on to your hats boys and girls, I'm jumping into the frying pan! I have decided that when my tree is delivered a few months from now, having been made by the Nikkels, that I'm going to attempt my first saddle. Minimalist Hope half seat. I'll be picking brains and am looking forward to the learning process, both the hands on as well as sitting at all of your guy's and gal's feet. It will be a bit yet, but once I get the tree I want to have all my necessary equipment and leather ready to go. So anything any of you are willing to share to help me set up for this project, I will certainly be very appreciative. I will be blogging the various steps along the way, so if any of you have helped out and want credit I will be happy to do that for you. Thanks a bunch, ;)S

Dennis or DaviD, are you guys working in Paypal for future sales of your card system? ;)S

Well Dennis, DaviD and Hank were here on Sunday last. We had about 3 hours of very enlightening discussions while we measured my three Spanish Mustangs. As was expected there weren't any new shapes among my horses, and the guys had the opportunity to measure two other SM's up in Wyoming as well with similar results. I did find Dennis's idea of where he would set the rigging to address the rigging issues I and others have experienced. All three men had some great input to give even with differing opinions. Bottom line the Equine Profiling Card System is very simple to use, and provides a wealth of information. There was a comment among themselves that I wasnt to certain I heard right. It was regarding a similarity of narrowness at some point along the back across the SM's they were able to measure. Guys when you get back could you share? I researched pedigrees and gait types of the horses logged so far and added this data to my own data log as if there is some similarity between shapes across a certain criteria it would be very interesting information to have. If not it certainly didnt hurt anything. The sad part as none of my horses were in proper shape or age, one was quite thin from being injured and raising a foal, another was 30 days away from foaling, and the other was an unbacked 3 years old very small stallion. The two that were measured up in Wyoming were saddle geldings from stouter built blooldines. All in all the project of measuring SM's with Dennis' card system is taking off and I hope to have at least 100 horses measured. In a breed with a total registered number of 4000 (give or take a few) and a large number of them (approx 1000 give or take a 100) deceased foundation stock and another 500 or so under saddle age. Especially since our stock primarily trace to around 100-150 foundation horses. I still feel 100 measured SM's will give us a good baseline for our breed. There are a good many Colonial Spanish strains/bloodlines out there too that fall outside SMR stock who would add some interesting dimensions to the project. I have decided to run a parallel data log for those horses as well. Right: Hank Statham holding The Spirit of Bear Paw (3 year old Spanish Mustang stallion) Middle: DaviD Morris holding a profiling card Left: Dennis Lane Anyway, Thanks guys for a delightful visit and for sharing your knowledge and open minds. It was a monumental day for Spanish Mustangs. Hank, I cut down all the tumbleweed and sagebrush it being a fire hazard and all. lol S Celt's Baroque Spanish Mustangs THE PONY EXPRESSION (see the Australian Saddle Makers on the blog)

Thanks Johanna, Dennis has contacted me today, so all is well! I appreciate you, Barra and David for contacting to help me out. S

I have been trying to get a hold of Dennis for few weeks now. Anyone know where he is hiding out? S

Will do! Thanks, Susan

Dennis, I heard trough the grape vine that you are coming to the US to give seminars or something to the affect. Will you be coming to Arizona? I would love to attend. S

Someday Alan, Im going to buy a bridle and other fun stuff from you. I Love your work!!! I am looking at another saddle maker. You still have my email? PM me. S

Hey Alan, good to see you! Yes I know you used a wade tree. You know for some SM's it does work. Ed Covey had some good QH bar trees that worked on his broader SM's. What I can tell you is that I have been trying saddles with all kinds of trees in them on my SM's (and you know which ones) for 16 years and have yet to find a saddle to fit. Now I can list numerous SM owners and you will recognise most of them who are having the same problem. Even with Wade trees. So that leave us to having a tree made (in general most of this breed will need a tree made). Most of us do not have Romero bred horses either. that could be the difference. I have three saddles sittinig in my living room right now and all three are useless to me. I have a horse in percision gait training and I need a saddle that fits her. Yes I am very excited and honored to work with the Nikkels and have a Nikkels tree in my saddle. So are you making any new saddles of late? S

Will do. Do you have any pictures of the saddles you made for the SM's or Cracker, or Kiger??? All of those horse breeds/types are built differently from each other. But similarly enough to make this interesting. S

Rod and Denise Nikkels would be my tree makers of choice. You are right on about the rigging with SM's. Placement is everything with them even though I know most everyone here disagrees with me. I would love for everyone here to ride a Purebred SMR SM of any strain with any saddle of their choice and tell me what they think afterward. Rigging is very important with this breed, after of course the tree itself. My personal saddle is for trail and light showing and gaiting. Other SM owners want to endurance ride, most will be pleasure saddles. But of course because our horses have a Spanish origin a lot of folks want Spanish/Mexican/On the Border styling (Santa Fe, Tejas etc). Some of the Dakota's folks like the Wade saddles. California and east coast folks like endurance and McClellan style saddles. No one is roping or cutting with their horses. Blake I will PM you if you like and go into this further. Let me know. S

Thanks Blake, I am with you on this. Been at this project for nearly a year now, just lost all of my posts on here with the crash. So just getting back to reminding folks. Would like someone to step up with some positive energy toward getting the job done. lol My preferred tree maker has contacted me today, so maybe something will begin. We'll see. I am looking to have my personal saddle made, yes, but I am also looking for a larger project two produce some custom prototype saddles for my breed. Oh and I have been a Spanish Mustang breeder for over 16 years and a BLM trainer and clinician for many more years than that. There is a huge difference in the backs. The BLM being a type of horse (Not a breed) and made up of breeds of modern horses that typical modern trees actually fit reasonably well. The Spanish Mustang is a "Breed" with pedigrees and has spanish characteristics, and I'm sorry to say no one makes a tree specifically for spanish traits. GRINNING BIG here. I had to throw that in. Always educating about my breed! hehe S

Oldtimer, I love this saddle!! Its nearly the exact saddle I want to have built for my Spanish Mustangs. With a Meana or Santa Fe slick fork tree made from a mold of my SM's back of course and including a Sam Stagg rigging. lol Very nice saddle!!!! S