AZThunderPony

Hidemechanic, whatever happened with our conversation? ;)S

I know... I know... we dont make "breed" specific trees. Oh but we do! We have trees that fit QH type horses and trees that fit Arab type horses, even trees that fit mule type mules. I need a tree to fit a Spanish Mustang type horse. So with that said and with in mind all the discussions we have had on this subject. I am looking for a project minded tree maker and saddle maker. I am going to have my tree made and my saddle made. I want to find a tree maker and a saddle maker who will work together to produce my saddle and a couple other prototype saddles made from equimolds or the Dennis Lane fitting system or both that I can have on hand to sell to SM folks who have close to matching horses. What kind of a financial outlay will I be looking at? I may find someone to sponsor a project. But I need a honest business minded saddle maker and tree maker to work with whom I can count on. Is anyone up to the task? Thanks, Susan Catt, Arizona

It seems to me that there is a place on here where one could order these cards. Could you point me to it please? Thanks, Susan Catt Arizona

Ah not exactly what I had in mind. Again I have a bit more progressive approach. I was coming from folks having trees made with special dimensions for this horse or that. Or maybe having trees made for this set of dimension or that, that folks could have a saddle made on. I guess in some ways its the same. But I already know that Steele doesnt come close to what I am thinking. It would take some open minded and talented tree makers though. Apparantly I have not thought it through enough to post the concept. But I'll work on it. S

Okay.. I know you guys are gonna pull your hair out. But I have this idea and want to pass it by the Pros. I have been thinking I need a secondary business to develop over the next few years. I am now a Massage Therapist (4 years) and was a Natural Horsemanship Horse Trainer (following my own system), and Futurity Halter trainer of Arabs, QH's Appy's, Paints, as as well showed Paso Finos for several years totaling some 35 or more years. I'm thinking of starting up some kind of saddle business. specialty saddles for specialty breeds. Not making them (OH NO WAY!), but ordering them made and having them available, looking for used ones that have already been tried and tested, etc.. Gathering them up and advertising them to the public If I can learn the Tree Makers well enough and if there was some way to identify a special design tree in a certain saddle (research owner trail back to Saddle Makers)...... Thoughts?

OKay I am really out of my league here... that said... are Davids saddles designed for roping? Somehow correct me if I am wrong, but I didnt get that impression. I'd be afraid of the thing coming over the horses head. Forgive me Daivd, I'm not picking on you. It's just this whole concept you have is foreign to me. I would love to see some pics of horses performing in these saddles. S

Sandy, To add a picture. You need to first upload it to Photobucket or a similar program that will create hyperlinks for you. If you have two windows open it will work easiest. One for photobucket, and one with your text editor for your post here on the forum. At the top of your text editor you can see the tree symbol (picture with tree) In Photobucket select the bottom link style by copying it, then go back to your editor to click on the picture icon. A window will come up that you can paste the link into. Then hit okay. Sounds complicated but actually very simple. If you are unfamiliar with Photobucket let me know via email and I will try to walk you through it. Its very easy. Hope this helps, Susan

Someone please correct me but isn't David Ganedak making saddles to fit more forward like that to set the rider into the sweet spot? Isnt that the fit he is after? Ity seems to me on another thread that he lays this theory out. Am I wrong? S Another thought on difference between Andalusian build and Spanish Mustang build is that the SM becomes more round like a barrel right after the elbow. This leave little space for setting the cinch back. Where as the Andy has more "Girth" space behind the elbow before the ribs extend out. Andalusian2... am I wrong? The common denomnator is that they both have deep well muscled withers where the neck comes down fromthe poll deep into the back as one contiuous line. Both have round well muscled backs. The SM is noarrower than the Andy though. Just some thoughts S

I just received this email from a woman who passed by this message board and is longing to find an appropriate fit for her Andalusians. I asked her permission to repost her email here. Just another note on where a market may lie. Anyone want to help her out? I shared with Sandy, my personal direction in having a saddle made, but thought some of you may help her to find the solution she is seeking. She may end up going with David Genadek, or she may not. But she is just one more person struggling with saddle fit for non QH/Arab/ TB /Draft/ Mule bred horses. S "Leatherworker.net" wrote: AZThunderPony, andalusians2 has sent you this email from http://www.leatherworker.net/forum/index.php. Hi AZthunderPony. Please let me know when you find a saddle that fits your Spanish Breed. I have two Andalusians and am torturing them with poor Western saddle fit. That is how I have come across this web site. I'm seeking answers. Hope you don't mind that I e-mailed you. Right now I'm riding a wide Tree tucker saddle that is "digging" into the shoulders. I am considering having David Genadek make my tree and saddle. Any suggestions? I'm tired of throwing money away that I don't have much of right now, so I must choose carefully! Thank You Sandy, Tx

I was reading many of the posts on here last night and came to realize that the saddle making industry (Western) is not hitting its optimum market. Yes the industry is very busy keeping up with the swamp of QH and Arabian popularists. But I was thinking of all the breeds being introduced into the US many of which are ridden western. It occured to me that most of these breeds are NOT going to be fitted properly for a western saddle just based on their conformation alone. So I went surching for backs from various fairly popular breeds newly introduced into the US. I included a back of a very specifically built strain of Spanish Mustang. If we add up all these breeds there is very healthy market for saddle makers starting with tree makers. But it would mean that tree makers, and saddlers alike would want to address specifric fitting problems from a NEW EYE so to speak. The market grows from having produced the product thaty most ideal for each breed Jut some food for thought. S

Amazing David, Great observation of the round ribcage to narrowed but deep girth that is a norm on most Spanish Mustangs. But not necessarily normal for BLM mustangs. I have used a packers cinch many time with my SM's to save them from gall and sore ribs. My question is why not make a tree that allows for a rigiging that hangs naturally where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? I undertstand that as a norm there are few SM owners running around ordering specialized trees. But when one does arrive on the scene it would be nice that tree makers and saddle makers would have a notion what type of tree, rigging and other details are necesasary to fit that owners horse. Spanish Mustangs are a very versatile horse, How about fitting a SM for varied diciplines? Working Cow or Ranch Horse Competitions, Endurance, Jumping, Gaiting, Dressage, Cutting, Barrels and much more??? What about fitting one horse for all of the above? Possible? Or 100 SM's for any one sport? Another question how deos the rigging affect or how should it lay in relationship to different Sports? S

This is a very informative topic. If not for the cost... I'm not a saddle maker, nor will I ever be... but I'd love to collect all of the videos listed just to educate myself on the varied ways saddlers go about putting the saddle together. What and interesting process... The average horse owner has no idea what all goes into the saddle they sit. Thanks everyone for giving your opinions and reasonings. Excellent!! S

Terry Moore of Medicine Hat Saddlery was scheduled to do a saddle fitting at the Spanish Mustang Registry 50th Year Celebration. He showed up Saturaday afternoon and gave a very informative talk. He brought many examples of trees with him. There were trees from different periods and uses available to inspect. Two were Rod Nikkels trees. I'm not an expert by any means on trees, but these two trees were very outstanding in workmanship compared the others I saw there. They just looked and felt stronger and had a certain quality to them that impressed me. This from an uneducated eye of course. I dont build trees. But I was pleased with them. I bought a mold from Terry and will be molding my horses back this weekend. So soon there will be a Rod Nikkels tree made for my Spanish Mustang mare. The demonstration was well attended and many of the topics we have discussed in this thread were addressed. Rod and Denise's description of what might be a problem in fitting this breed was made extremely appearant to all there. It really helped me see the problems from the tree up. For the first time since entering into this breed I am hopeful for a truly proper fit for my horses. Susan Catt Bear Paw Ranch Arizona

Welcome Jane! Glad you finally made it here... I had the same problem getting approved too! But we made it!!! :D Maybe we can make a difference for our breed through these discussions. If I may without upsetting any apple carts, here I would like to offer what I see with that particular saddle on that particular SM. This is in regard to gaiting. It APPEARS that if Whodie (Jugeton) brought his neck back in Spanish Fashion to gait that the saddle would interfere due to being more forawrd. Also the Spanish style of gaiting creates a bouncing up and down movemnt in the shoulders, (The head becomes still and the shoulders do all the work in the finely trained Spanish Gaiter) I fail to see how the saddle where its positioned in these pictures would not interefere with that also. If he was being asked to move more flat (Like a walker or fox trotter) then maybe it would not hinder or be a concern. But since he is gaited and is built and bred to coil in Spanish fashion, I'd think his best gait will be coiled and up and over rather than flat and down under. I've never seen him in person but I really like him a lot. A very nice compact strong looking gelding. What do you think??? S

There will be some 300 horses or more in Oshoto Wyoming from June 14 to the 18th that you guys could all take notes on. Just come and hang out at the Spanish Mustang Registry 50th Year Celebration!!! Seriously I'd love to make it possible for your suggestion to happen... Any ideas? Susan Catt

As for the McClellan style rigging. Yes you are right and I agree I would much rather have the rigging put inproperly (for my riding purposes and breed dynamics) in the first place. As for the Sam Stagg Rigging. Well I can agree and I also cannot agree. But I guess since the saddle I'm having built originates from an 1880's/On The Border style saddle with modifications for gaiting and my style of riding, I chose Sam Stagg for both its verstility for me and its "looks". As for the inskirt riggings, it's a personal preference I think, but I have never liked them whether used on QH's or Arabs, or whathave you while training or riding, and to tell you the truth, I cant put a finger on it. But I have never liked working with them or the feel of them. Where Spanish Mustangs are concerned... the breed seems to be so round on the sides that the rigging that is inskirt seems to dig into the ribs as they extent out beyond the saddle skirt and this is a bigger problem if its a dropped rigging. With that said there was some discussion regarding a differernt set to the bars that might well fix this problem and in that case the inskirt rigging would be fine for those who like it. The Borks 5085 rigging? Please post pic ifyou can! I guess I'll deal with the bulk if any, I'll be riding in a period (to some degree) saddle with a Sam Stagg rigging. Thanks so much for your post... more good information to chew on. Susan Catt

Good info Bruce thanks. I am getting a very good idea from all this. This forum is extremely helpful. More folks should stop in and have a chat or at least a good read!

Aas for rigging. I really would love to see a saddle maker share some thoughts on rigging placement with the concerns I listed on the other post. I like the way David listed out reasons for ill fit and then how Rod and Denise spelled out the changes that might be made to the average trees to make them a better fit for SM's I would love to see the Rigging addressed in a simialr manner by the saddle makers. As it sits now I'm leaning toward a sam stagg rigging. I love it because I can use it either as it is positioned by the saddle maker, or I can add adjustable dropped 3 point riggng to it for the occassional adjustment for a different horse(s). Now I bet that throws a monkey wrench into things? Ideally though I am looking for the rigging that fits my Horses from the saddle makers shop and not end up having to make changes once the saddle gets to me to make it usuable. Especially after paying 2 or 4 grand. Susan Catt

I agree. I would love to hear some Saddle Makers ideas on how they would address fit in regards to this thread. Ive tried to show clearly how large groups of horses (not just my breed) have been left outside the average fit parameters used by many if not most tree and saddle makers today. So now standing outside that box. It sure would be great to hear some thoughts from saddle makers on how they would take a tree designed to address some of the conformation types and riding styles listed in this thread and build a saddle that would suit both. Anyone? Susan Catt

Alan, could you post a picture of one of these trees? Give a better description of them part by part please? I'm learning all these different parts and would like to compare ideas. This colt is a yearling exhibiting excellent Old Time Spanish qualities. Alan, How do you like Medicine Bear now? (Medicine Bear my new Romero/McKinley bred yearling colt bred by Terry Moore of Medicine Hat Saddlery) Thanks, Susan Catt

So when are we going to start seeing trees like this emerge into the market place for SM'ers to have their saddles built on?

Rod and Denise, This is the best description of the problems I have faced fitting my horses to date. And yes you have described the breed type of back as a general rule. Here is my thoughts on rigging. Let's assume the tree is a perfect fit and the horse and rider have perfect balance and movement. (hypathetical) Now the cinch which is set back "on this breed" hangs in such away as to restrict lung function as it snugs up along the ribs where they are begining to spring away from the horses back in a round arch, or "C" shape. A rigging set more forward can be tied in a three point tie but still avoid restriction of lung function by resting just in front of where the C begins to broaden. I would like to see the latigo hang vertical from the saddle to the girth and not run along an angle from girth toward the loins of the horse. I really dont care at this point if the tree stays put, now I'm concerned about lung capacity and sore ribs. I dont do ranch work. I do back country distance riding and gaiting. I speak for my horses alone as I breed for multi-gaited stock. My horses sit down in the rear, raise up in the front end, coil in classic Old Time Spanish manner and travel much like a pleasure type Paso Fino (for lack of a better image). When they coil their gut broadens and their ribs expand to allow for the increase of gut pressure. Now I dont want to inhibit that with an awkwardly angled or placed rigging. Keep in mind they do not travel flat like a walker or fox trotter and if they do they are not performing up to par. Does this help? I'm not disagreeing because I feel I know something about saddle fit that those here don't. Or that I know more about my breed than anyone here might. I stand firm on anatomical function of the musclulo-skeletal system and the depence of neuorlogical health on respiratory performance. A position I have spent some time studying not just in regards to the over all health and functionality of my horse, but I use everyday in my line of work restructuring tissue for humans with injury or chronic issues. So I am still not convinced on the rigging answers I have heard thus far. I could be if I can see that my horses respiratory function is not compromised by a rigging that is set in my opinion too far back. I understand that mankind has been riding horsekind for many a year without concern for respiratory function. Not to the point that I am conerned about it, and for those few who do.... you dont see TB's on the track with girths set back on their ribcage. I dont want to see a girth set back on the ribcage of my SM either. Now I'm looking forward to hearing some ideas about how we fix a SM ribcage/rigging problem? Hey Alan, Good to see you here! Your saddle looked good on your mare. But I thought it kinda dwarfed her! lol You make a beautiful product (I've seen some of Alans work and know folks who use his product). Susan Catt

Thanks David for pointing out in clearer terms the problems regarding fit with SM's. Also we will have to disagree in regards to how the rigging falls on these horses as a breed. As having bred, raised and trained them for 13 years I do have practical experience regarding the above. As a professional trainer of 35 years I have some experience with fitting horses in general. I have never ran into as much rigging problems in other breeds albeit occasionally a few do occur that I have found in this breed. Your posts are very informative and I appreciate your comments. Susan Catt Bear Paw Ranch Arizona

Not guessing, as you pointed out could be any breed. But the SPANISH mustang has certain physical attributes that do span thebreed as anorm just like everyother breed. These attributes are what we need to fit in general. Excatly my point when folks tryto tellme that Sm horses are "Mutton" withered. They have plenty of withers, but they also are very deeply buyilt horses wich causes the lower appearance on top. David Genadek Thanks Daid foryour post. I appreciate your observations. Susan Catt Bear Paw Ranch Arizona

Thanks Bruce for your post. Im adding some more pics of this breed. Just more food for thought. Mares various sizes and ages. Broodmares, riding mares, fillies in varied states of condition (mostly fat). Stallion in herd condition. even with minimum condition, this horse shows a strong Latissimas Dorsi muscle (circle), plus the position of the erectors mm (Muscle) to the rib heads (short horizontal line on side of horse), also horizontal line above horse shows wither to croup alignement. Angled line along neck shows not only the angle of how the neck sits on but also how the neck with weight will appear to continue well into the back in true Spanish form. This is the back of my mare. Just for comparison sake. She is soft, in foal, and over weight. Thanks again everyone for your contributions. Susan Catt Bear Paw Ranch Arizona