Sarden

Final piece has been posted over at: http://www.carryology.com/insights/chrome-vs-vegetable-tanned-leather/ Thanks to everybody for supplying valuable information a few months back. As you can see, the original version ended up being tweaked quite a bit.

Oltoot, thanks. Appreciate the support. I am rising above it and am working on an altered version that stays true to the objective while incorporating some of the less snarky comments. I only came to get my facts straight. Thor, thanks. Yes, I came across that one. Nice infographic — that seems to lean towards veg tan as well. I do understand that in some cases CT is simply the best choice. As you say, for car seats, garments etc., veg tan would not work well. I will write a little more about that in our updated version. We are a bit all over the place in Europe. British/Danish team that originally set up office in Spain but are currently in Copenhagen, Denmark. We are not really looking for tanneries ourselves. What we do is source and promote quality producers from around the world — currently Europe and Japan — and act as a "hub" for these products. The producers of them work with tanneries in Germany, France, Portugal, Italy etc. Part of our mission is to provide non-converts with accessible information so we get some more people out there to use quality products instead of mass-produced stuff that tends to fall apart and is generally just depressing to look at. I guess our veg tan preferences stem from this — but we are not out to misinform, so we are checking some of the sources suggested in this thread.

Needles, thanks. Very useful. We certainly want to provide factual information and after some pretty thorough research, we believed the article above was factual - although admittedly a little slanted. I will have a closer look at the two sources you suggest. Looks interesting. TwinOaks - thanks. There were some interesting facts and observations in your latest posts. We'll have a thorough second look at the piece and I will repost it here when a new draft is finished. If nothing else, then for your entertainment ... Our aim is to present a fair amount of facts and details but to be more inclusive than an article for professionals would be. We are a business, of course, and need revenue to survive, but our mission is also to help raise general awareness of quality producers and products. Thanks again,

"The tone isn't aggressive at all. It's just being honest. I prefer an honest word over a million sweet little lies" Alright, I think I'm getting out of this one. I hardly asked for "a million sweet little lies". I simply prefer discussing facts instead of throwing accusations around. What's the point of that? I have repeatedly admitted lacking knowledge. Which is why I came here. To learn.

Guys, I really don't think you are being entirely fair here. From the article: Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage. Chrome tanned leather is more resistant to water, stains and extreme heat. Those are pros to chrome leather, but in all honesty we have not found any others apart from chrome leather being better suited as garment leather which, as I have previously written, we will now add to the article. The first two thirds of the article is a completely neutral description of how and why tanning actually works. Not skewed in any way. I have admitted we are little biased due to our preferences, but I do believe that the article by and large is an objective look at tanning - albeit slightly biased towards veg tanning, in large part due to the naturalness of this process. I have received a lot of criticism but little in the way of "evidence". One commenter wrote that chrome tan also gets a nice patina and then used as a reference a leather that is in fact chrome tanned and then vegetable tanned afterwards. If you have solid facts that disprove our claims I'd be grateful to hear more as we really do want to write an objective piece here. If our preferences towards veg tan are based on false evidence, I would certainly much rather get my facts straight than put out a piece that is plain wrong. I appreciate the potential turn-off caused by bias and will certainly have a second look at the article to see if the wording ought to be changed. But I don't really think it is that slanted — we do in fact promote both veg tan and chrome tan products on our platform. ​As previously written, if you research online, you will find most leather aficionados praising veg tan, not chrome tan. I don't know, maybe it's an America / Europe thing ...

Wow, the tone here is getting unexpectedly aggresive. As stated previously we did in fact spend considerable time researching this article, and while the final piece is admittedly a little biased towards vegetable tanning as we prefer natural products ourselves, the article is based on what we deduced from 30 articles was the general consensus. As we have openly stated our own bias, our reasons for leaning towards vegetable tanning, as well as consider this a common preference among leather aficionados, I don't think it is entirely inappropriate to question if others could be a little biased too. Especially when they are working with chrome leathers themselves. I'd hardly call the article "misinformation" and I don't think "Ambassador" puts forward any arguments to support such a claim. Most of what we write are facts repeated by numerous sources and I have referred to a few of these in a couple of my replies above. "Ambassador" on the other hand is accusing me of being unable to defend anything, being defensive and only spending considerable time here in order to "gain some validity" — whatever that means. I came here to get some help and comments from people who know more than I. I thankfully got some that were more useful than the rather odd accusations in the most recent post. If Ambassador wants to share some of the insights he has obtained through his own research, I would be very glad to hear more and am ready to update our article with these insights in mind.

<p>Thanks a lot to everybody for your comments.</p> <p> </p> <p>We have, of course, done many Google searches in order to research the subject properly. In fact, information from about 30 texts have gone into writing the little piece above.</p> <p> </p> <p>The article mentioned above by Thor - <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" href="">http://maxwellscottl...-tanned-leather</a> - was one of those texts. Some of the statements that Thor call false above are also mentioned in that very article.</p> <p> </p> <p>That article also states "<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13.8000001907349px;">vegetable tanning is far superior!" as well as "</span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13.8000001907349px;">The only real advantage we have found with chrome tanning is that it is more stain, water and heat resistant."</span></p> <p> </p> <p>It seems that some of the more critical voices above are in fact involved with working with chrome tanned leather. So just as we admittedly are skewed towards veg tanned leather, could it be that you possibly are a little skewed towards chrome tan for a various reasons?</p> <p> </p> <p>Thanks Thor for the comment about the first sentence. I get your point and don't disagree if the target group consists of people like you guys here on the forum. Our mission, however, is to reach a wider audience and inform about purchasing quality. So the target group are people who are interested in leatherware in general but today don't know, nor care much about, exactly what quality they are paying for.</p> <p> </p> <p>With that in mind, I hope the opening of the article works to generate a bit of initial curiosity, and, if we are lucky, a little smile. (-:</p> <p> </p> <p>I agree with Doe from Chicago that the text can seem biased. It IS biased, I admit. Waremakers (our project) emphasises natural processes and craftsmanship, so we certainly prefer veg tan. But we will have a second look at toning it down a little, as we do understand the advantages of chrome tanning. </p> <p> </p> <p>Thanks again,</p>

Thanks for another great answer. We will make a few adjustments to the text. I think, however, that your "Horween Chromexcel" example somehow confirms that vegetable tanning is needed to achieve a good patina. As you say, the Horween is combination tanned, also using bark tannins. So I would deduce from that, that chrome tanning alone cannot produce significant patina. With regards to the colour richness, here is an example of a page describing this phenomenon: http://www.satchel-page.com/blogs/news/14289793-shh-leather-prices-from-a-tannery (They also sell jackets made of vegetable tanned leather - or at least 'vegetable re-tanned') I understand that page is skewed towards vegetable-tanning, and so are we, obviously. But judging from our own leather samples here at our office, I would certianly agree that the vegetable tanned leathers appear more "lively". The slight differences in colour tone add a "depth" to the colour apperance. It seems "richer". But the softness certainly seems a selling point for chrome tanned leathers. Thanks again. Really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot for your reply. Appreciate it. The point about chrome tanned leather being suitable for, especially, clothing is a good one. We will add it to the text. With regards to patina, colour and wear, I have found numerous sources stating that chrome leather reacts the way described in the article: very little patina develops, it doesn't wear well, colours are not deep. Basically every source I have come across describes it this way. Do you have more information about this? Maybe some online sources? I would be interested in investigating further if it is in fact not true.

Hi, I'm new to this forum and part of a startup business that seeks to source and promote premier quality leather goods and craftsmanship to a wider audience. I will post a link to our site in the "new members" group. We want to educate people and help them better understand leather so they'll make informed purchasing decisions ― and we want to improve our own knowledge of leather. Those are the main reasons I am now a member here on Leatherworker. We have just finished an article about vegetable vs chrome tanning. I would be most grateful if some of you experts would spare 5 minutes, read through it and comment on it. If you have suggestions for changes or adding more information to the article, please let me know. Thanks!! Anders -- Tanning leather: Chrome or vegetable? The leather that your bag is made of has been tanned. And no, that doesn’t mean that it has been left in the sun to get a bit of colour. Basically, tanning is the process that converts animal skin to leather. How this process is carried out has a very significant impact on the quality of the bag you hope to use for years to come. Will it soften and acquire a patina over time? Or will it look the same until one day it starts to crack? Once an animal skin has been turned into a hide by being degreased and having all its hair removed, the tanning process can begin. An untreated skin would both harden and putrefy as it is an organic material. So, the aim of the tanning process is to prevent this from happening – to turn the hide into leather. This is something human beings have been doing for a very long time. Some evidence suggests that leather tanning was performed as far back as approximately 6,000 BCE in the Indus Valley – one of the cradles of modern civilization. The basic principle has been the same for all these millennia: To modify the protein called collagen, which the skin is made up of. You can actually get a sense of this protein with the naked eye. Collagen molecules like to first line up and then to twist together into “fibre bundles“, that you can easily see if you look closely enough at quality leather. Look closely and on vegetable tanned leathers you will be able to see the collagen fibres that leather is made up of. What tanning does is leave the skin much less susceptible to hydrolysis – the separating of chemical bonds caused by water – which would otherwise cause its degradation. Tanning modifies the molecular structure of the skin. Vegetable tanning For the vast majority of the past thousands of years this modification has been performed by soaking the skin in a solution made up of vegetable tannins. These tannins would most often come from trees such as oak, chestnut or mimosa, but hundreds of tree types and other plants have been used. In fact, the word ‘tannin’ derives from an old German word for ‘fir’. So ‘tanning’ has nothing to do with colouring as in getting your kit off and letting the sun brown your skin. A tannin is a molecule that bonds easily with proteins and will draw liquids out. If you are a wine drinker, you may have had heated debates over a wine’s ‘tannins’ – the ingredient that makes the wine feel dry in the mouth, sometimes to the extent of making both your tongue and gums feel unpleasantly arid and barren. Just as the tannins in wine come from the skin of the grape, the tannins in trees are found in the bark. When tanning hides to make leather, the hides are soaked in a tanning solution. The tannin molecules will enter the hide and displace the water that is bound in the collagen. The water is drawn out, but as the tannins take the place of the removed water, the leather does not grow inflexible as fully dehydrated leather otherwise would. It may sound easy, but it isn’t. The process is complex and the skins require multiple treatments over a period of up to two months in order for the water molecules to be fully extracted and letting the tannin molecules take their places in just the right way. A lot of work from skilled craftsmen is involved too. Mineral (chromium) tanning The complexity, expense and time involved with tanning with vegetable tannins led to the development of using mineral tanning agents instead. The basic principle is the same, removing water molecules from the collagen and replacing them, but the process is much quicker using chrome which by far is the most popular mineral tanning agent today. The whole process can be automated and finished in a day. The process, however, is far less natural than when using vegetable tannins. It involves first placing the hides in acidic salts to better make the chrome fit in between the collagen molecules – and then returning the hides to a normal pH level. This requires the use of acids and other chemicals as well as the chromium sulphates themselves. All these have a negative environmental impact and the industry is under increasing pressure to “clean up”. As opposed to the vegetable tanned variety, chrome tanned leather can’t be recycled either as it is not truly a natural product. Nevertheless, today no less than about 90% of the world’s leathers are chrome tanned – primarily due to the cost. If you buy wholesale leather, vegetable tanned leathers cost about three times as much as chrome leathers. In general, vegetable tanned leather is considered far superior to chrome leather. Look, feel and smell The cost and environmental impact of chrome and vegetable tanned leathers are not the only differences between the two. There are more visible distinctions too. Vegetable tanned leather Because of the way it is tanned, the colours of vegetable tanned leather will be richer and “deeper” and the leather will appear, as it is, natural. Being an entirely organic material, vegetable tanned leather will change over time. It will grow softer and darker, and will acquire a patina depending on its uses. As it is more durable, vegetable tanned leather will last longer than chromium leather – potentially several lifetimes. Bags that are decades old can be highly sought after items. Vegetable tanned leather scratches fairly easily, but unlike chrome leather, scratches can easily be buffed out. Vegetable tanned leather smells natural – the pleasant, sweet smell you probably associate with leather is the smell of vegetable tanned leather. Chrome tanned leather Chrome tanned leather looks a little as if it has been painted – the fibres of the leather not being allowed to show through the way they do on vegetable tanned leather. It is basically a less natural product. Chrome tanned leather will not develop a patina but will continue to look pretty much like it did when it was purchased. Chrome tanned leather will initially be softer and suppler than vegetable tanned leather but will not age well. Over time it will grow prone to breakage. Chrome tanned leather is more resistant to water, stains and extreme heat. Chrome tanned leather will have a slight chemical smell to it. Sometimes disguised by the producer artificially scenting the leather. HOT TIP Blue chrome The chrome tanning process will turn the hides light blue. As they are subsequently dyed, the blue will no longer be visible on the surface of the finished leather. But the leather will later be cut into the pieces needed to sew, say, a bag, and the edges of these individual cuts will show a blue tint. Most producers will use a special paint to paint the edges, but if you see any trace of blue edges, the leather in your hands has definitely been chrome tanned.