Edge-Kote?

[JPH]

Howdy!

Ok it's the PITA again...with yet another question..

I firgure I will tackle this leather working dilemma one step at a time..get one propblem solved and then move on to the others in turn..

OK I know how to make a OK but "rustic" (and how!!) looking sheath using welt construction and the single seam up the back.ones.. What I think I will tackle presently is finishes and edges. On the Edge-Kote...from what I hear/read it is 1: Water based (which makes me wonder how moisture resistant it is) and 2: It has been referred to as a little more than white carpenter's glue thinned down. So anyone have any other suggestions, beefs, ideas, etc as to making the edged less "rough"? As it is I wet "burnish" then on a worn belt on my belt grinder but that isn't the nice "finished" look I see on say GOOD leather luggage, purses..etc.. That is the look I am going for.

As far as the non edge surface goes..what choices do I have that will give a nice sheen (not really glossy but more like semi-glossy) that is water resistant? I have tried that Tandy stuff and well..it didn't work very well for me..maybe I did something wrong or what..but it didn't work that great. Right now I am using a mixture of beeswax and Ballistol, applied hot, "baked in" and then buffed by hand...gives the leather a nice finish but not all that shiney (sure smells nice..like licorice honey...)

So any suggestions??? Ideas??

Thank you kindly..

JPH

[Art]

Hi Dr. H.,

It is fairly easy to get a good edge.

1. Even edge (if multiple layers) with head knife, Scalpel, or belt grinder, try not to burn the edge with the grinder or at least burn evenly (try that some time).

2. Edge the piece, I use Ron Edmonds edgers but others will work.

3. Dye the piece, and yes, do dye the edge. I use Fiebing's pro dyes (spirit dyes) diluted somewhat (about 33% with denatured ethyl alcohol). I immerse, sort of, or if I don't have enough to immerse, I rub and splash all over with a sponge wrapped in a tee shirt, best dauber I ever used, but glove up. For black I use drum dyed from Hermann Oak, but whatever it is make sure it is struck all the way through.

4. After the dye has dried (overnight in the furnace room, sometimes longer, but for you in Vegas probably just overnight) I rub the piece down vigorously with a clean tee shirt to get the excess dye off.

5. Now I take water and wet the edge with my finger, not soaked just wet. I do a small section, 6" or so, at a time, and then rub the edge with an elk antler tip. I also use cocobolo tools and or a hard felt or leather wheel (run slow <= 1750 for 3 or 4 inch wheel). I use beeswax when I use the wheels as they can get the edge hot enough to take the wax, but for the most part I gravitate to the antler tips. You can work up a remarkably slick and shiny edge with just the smooth antler.

6. I finish the whole piece with Fiebing's Bag Kote, Tan Kote, Pecard's, and or Gum Tragacanth depending on what I am trying to accomplish.

7. I will be trying a new edge system by Ron Edmonds and will let you know how that works, probably about the same as water. The simple stuff usually works best.

Art

Howdy!

Ok it's the PITA again...with yet another question..

I firgure I will tackle this leather working dilemma one step at a time..get one propblem solved and then move on to the others in turn..

OK I know how to make a OK but "rustic" (and how!!) looking sheath using welt construction and the single seam up the back.ones.. What I think I will tackle presently is finishes and edges. On the Edge-Kote...from what I hear/read it is 1: Water based (which makes me wonder how moisture resistant it is) and 2: It has been referred to as a little more than white carpenter's glue thinned down. So anyone have any other suggestions, beefs, ideas, etc as to making the edged less "rough"? As it is I wet "burnish" then on a worn belt on my belt grinder but that isn't the nice "finished" look I see on say GOOD leather luggage, purses..etc.. That is the look I am going for.

As far as the non edge surface goes..what choices do I have that will give a nice sheen (not really glossy but more like semi-glossy) that is water resistant? I have tried that Tandy stuff and well..it didn't work very well for me..maybe I did something wrong or what..but it didn't work that great. Right now I am using a mixture of beeswax and Ballistol, applied hot, "baked in" and then buffed by hand...gives the leather a nice finish but not all that shiney (sure smells nice..like licorice honey...)

So any suggestions??? Ideas??

Thank you kindly..

JPH

[JPH]

Art:

Ok....

Here's what I am doing to give you an idea as to what is happening..

I make the sheah..I glue it up..smooth everything even on my grinders...burnich the edges on a dull belt then sew everything on my Tippman...After it is sewed all together it's dyed. I mix my own annaline dyes (I use alcohol based dyestuffs) and I just "dunk" the whole thing in the gallon or so vat...Gets nice and even that way...

I let that dry usually overnight, buff off the "dust" then seal, rubb if off again and it's done...

I want something that will make for a "smoother" and "sealed" edge...sorta like on a pair of boots??

Now I have another stupid question...what's an edger?? What does it do??

Ok I admit I am not a leatherworker..I am a blacksmith...I do OK with metals..but leather is all new to me really...

JPH

[Art]

Hi Jim,

Before you dye, you edge. You use a tool called an "edger" to round over the leather as it transitions from the face (or back) of the piece to the edge. Sand or smooth before you edge, do not burnish, then edge, then dye. You must edge to get the grain of the leather back from the edge as it will bugger up if right on the edge. After dyeing the edge will be well shaped but a little fuzzy, it will also be dyed. At this point you get out the water and burnish the wet edge with the slicker, antler tine, wheel, piece of canvas, or whatever. This burnishing will give you the edge you desire, the longer you work at it, the slicker and shinier it will get, add more water if needed. Now you can finish the edge with any number of topcoats including edge paint which is usually a water based acrylic which is fairly waterproof when dry. Some folks use the edge paint on unburnished edges and then buff in beeswax on a hard felt (wool only, no synthetics they will melt) or another hard type wheel like leather (put a groove in them and run the waxed leather in the waxed groove in the wheel). This will give you the commercial painted edge you often see (however it isn't period to anything but the late 20th century). Sometimes you need to paint the edge with two coats. Everyone does this differently, this is not the only way, just mine.

Art

Art:

Ok....

Here's what I am doing to give you an idea as to what is happening..

I make the sheah..I glue it up..smooth everything even on my grinders...burnich the edges on a dull belt then sew everything on my Tippman...After it is sewed all together it's dyed. I mix my own annaline dyes (I use alcohol based dyestuffs) and I just "dunk" the whole thing in the gallon or so vat...Gets nice and even that way...

I let that dry usually overnight, buff off the "dust" then seal, rubb if off again and it's done...

I want something that will make for a "smoother" and "sealed" edge...sorta like on a pair of boots??

Now I have another stupid question...what's an edger?? What does it do??

Ok I admit I am not a leatherworker..I am a blacksmith...I do OK with metals..but leather is all new to me really...

JPH

[JPH]

Art:

Ok on the edger..how thick of a piece will these things handle?? I mean some of the sheath edges are about 5/8" to 3/4" thick...

JPH

[Mike Phelps]

I'm sure there are edgers at there that will handle that but I just take my #5 craftool edger and make several passes, high, low and in between until it is reasonable then dye, ink if I'm going that route then when dry apply,water, gum targ, there ain't no best way just what works best for you, sometimes and this is getting to be my favorite of late, just warm up the edge with a hair dryer hit with the beeswax and go to work with the burnishers, my round nylon slicker that chucks up in a drill won't do edges that wide without putting ruts in it[not good, been there], until and this takes a lot of hard and fast elbow grease, the I get all the edges to close up, fill until you get it looking smooth. If you've got a gouge in the welt or on the inside edge that won't smooth up after hitting it with the sandpapers, edgers and stuff during prep for edge treatment you can mix up some leather dust with a drop of Leather Weld cement and fill then blend it in with sandpaper when dry, it's got to be a pretty dry mix or the glue won't take the dye or other treatment well and be a slightly lighter color, but it's better than a ugly nick.

[Art]

Jim,

You do each edge (top and bottom) in a separate pass. Tool is held around a 45 degree angle and with a good edger like Ron's will round the edge over not just skive a 45 degree cut. Ron makes edgers from size 1 to 8, but there is no law against making multiple passes to accomplish something. The radius of the tool increases with the number. If you need something bigger you will need a saddle horn trimmer from Ron, but they are only good on straight stuff and outside curves, they're too big for anything but the most gradual of inside curves.

http://www.ronstools.com

If this isn't making and sense I can maybe do some tutorial this weekend, let me know

Art

Art:

Ok on the edger..how thick of a piece will these things handle?? I mean some of the sheath edges are about 5/8" to 3/4" thick...

JPH

[DANE]

JPH, I made a sanding/edging machine inspired by John Bianchi the famous holster maker who started off making police gear and now specializes in western holsters and belts through his company Frontier Gunleather. A few years back he put out a set of videos on making western holsters. I'm sure they are available on DVD and are well worth the money. The machine has a 1/3 hp motor (1725 rpm) and drives a double ended spindle using a belt. One end has a light grit 1 1/4" sanding barrel and the other a 100% wool edging wheel. As stated in prior posts, synthetic material melts. I made the wheel by cutting out numerous 2" wool material rounds and sewing them together until about 1 1/2" thick. I punched a hole through the center using a leather hole punch then mounted it on the spindle. I made two edging grooves in the wheel by turning on the electric motor then pressing appropriate sized waxed wooden dowels against the wheel over and over while adding more wax. I only use a 50/50 mixture of household paraffin and bees wax. One groove for single layer 9-10 oz leather and the otther for double/triple layer. I use the sanding barrel to smooth and even out holster edges. It also helps fine tune the curves of the holster. I trim off the sharp edges using a standard edging tool. I then dye the entire holster. I want the edge and faces to have the same shades of dye. I apply two coats of Fiebing's Edge Kote. Apply a heavy layer of wax along the edge and rewax the wool edging wheel as it spins. Make sure to wear an apron and face shield as small bits of hot wax tend to fly off. Start edging the piece on the wheel applying enough pressure to get the wax to melt and fill the leather pores and gaps but not enough to burn. I usually rewax and edge a holster 3 or 4 times until I get the desired look. I have an edge finishing tool I made from a Phillip's screwdriver by grinding and smoothing off the tip. I heat it over an electric stove element (gas flame leaves black residue) then touch up the edges as needed. I finish off with a wool pad. For the face I like to use a few coats of Kiwi neutral shoe polish but heavy buffing between coats. This has worked well for me and I have received lots of compliments on my edging. I thin k it gives a very professional look. Good luck with your projects

[JPH]

Hello:

Ok..let me make sure I get this straight... I edge BEFORE I sew or AFTER? Like I said I glue everything up..and on the welt sheaths I then smooth it all nice and even on a belt grinder, then I run them through my Tippman to sew them up..

So it's round the edges and get those selaed and burnished before I sew??

I know this is really a square nut question but I really don't know... I will be doing a few sheaths this weekend and I would like to give these suggestions a go...Once I get the edge problem licked I will be thinking about finish...I am OK dye wise I think.

Oh..you ever mix any of your own dyes??

JPH

[Art]

Hi Jim,

Glue up and sew, then even up and smooth (on sander) BEFORE edging, then dye, then burnish and slick, then finish. I will check leatherworker.net often this weekend if you need help.

I have made dyes for period work (walnut hulls etc) but for the most part use Fiebing's Pro Oil Dyes (spirit dye) cut with DEA. You can mix the Pro dyes to get different shades.

Art

Hello:

Ok..let me make sure I get this straight... I edge BEFORE I sew or AFTER? Like I said I glue everything up..and on the welt sheaths I then smooth it all nice and even on a belt grinder, then I run them through my Tippman to sew them up..

So it's round the edges and get those selaed and burnished before I sew??

I know this is really a square nut question but I really don't know... I will be doing a few sheaths this weekend and I would like to give these suggestions a go...Once I get the edge problem licked I will be thinking about finish...I am OK dye wise I think.

Oh..you ever mix any of your own dyes??

JPH

[JPH]

Hello again:

Ok I got a few made up and sewn and all..I haven't slicked the edge..just evened them up on the belt grinder and now they are a tad bit "furry" or "fuzzy" looking...

Now the question is on the slicking..I do this with the leather MOIST..NOT wet just MOIST correct?? And then I rub these to smooth it out and "Burnish" the leather?? If so..what prevents the leather from going back to being fuzzy when I re-dye it or do I have to re-dye?? I am a bit lost here...

I know PITA questions but I don't know...the books/guides I have read do have some conflucting information so I am thinking that there are a few ways to do this??

JPH

[Art]

I presume you have dyed the piece and it is dry and any excess dye is buffed off. The edges have been edged prior to dyeing. Now get some water on your finger and wet the edge you are going to burnish and go at it. Burnish until the edge gets hard and glossy, don't be afraid to lean on it. After you have it the way you want it, you can put some finish like gum tragacanth on it and rub until you get what you want. Do this on a practice piece first to see what to expect; if you've never done this, don't try it on a piece you have 10 or 20 hours in, try it on scrap. If you have a flimsy edge, put it between a couple of pieces of board or glass so the edge sticks out an eighth or quarter inch and work on that. It's like hardening steel, folks put a lot of mumbo jumbo into it and make the whole process harder than Chinese Trigonometry. Just take a scrap piece of veg tan , edge it, dye it, dry it, buff it, and slick the edge, then put on some finish and slick till it looks great. You probably won't have to add any more color, but if you do, try some edge paint (Fiebing's Edge Kote or similar) or an acrylic paint. Painted edges are not a durable as just a well slicked edge.

Art

Hello again:

Ok I got a few made up and sewn and all..I haven't slicked the edge..just evened them up on the belt grinder and now they are a tad bit "furry" or "fuzzy" looking...

Now the question is on the slicking..I do this with the leather MOIST..NOT wet just MOIST correct?? And then I rub these to smooth it out and "Burnish" the leather?? If so..what prevents the leather from going back to being fuzzy when I re-dye it or do I have to re-dye?? I am a bit lost here...

I know PITA questions but I don't know...the books/guides I have read do have some conflucting information so I am thinking that there are a few ways to do this??

JPH

[JPH]

Art:

THANK YOU....I will give that a go this afternoon...now that gum trag..what does that do actually???

JPH

[Art]

Hi Jim,

Gum Tragacanth is a natural gum product from some weed in the middle east. It is related to zanthum gum and the likes and is also a food product. Basically it is used as a natural finish coat and is commonly used for finishing and smoothing the flesh side of leather although it is a good top coat also. It is also used to finish edges in both the burnishing and coating of the edge. You could use it in place of water to burnish, but water works just as good. A natural and old time finish that gives a little gloss and lets the leather breathe. Not waterproof or very water resistant.

Art

Art:

THANK YOU....I will give that a go this afternoon...now that gum trag..what does that do actually???

JPH

[JPH]

Art:

Ok I gave it a go and well it took darn near forever to get the edges smoothed/burnished by hand.. I make sheaths by the dozen and this is really adding up to the time...sooooooo..

I was thinking that if I was to turn a wheel, say out of 1018/A-36 ...about 8" in diameter, put a nice U shaped groove in it..somewhat shallow but strill a U and attach that to say a 1650 or so RPM motor...that should work shouldn't it to burnish??

I need to cut down on the time spent on these...and this might be a way to do that. spending 10 minutes on a sheath to burnish doesn't sound like a long time but when you have 30 or 40 to do...it adds up...

JPH

[Billsotx]

Jim,

I'll jump in here with a little note. I believe a "round-bottom" edger is what you'll want for edging your sheaths. With your metal work skills you should be able to turn one out in short order. Here's a link that might give you an idea: undefined. There's also a Bob Douglas (also high end tools) on ebay you might look at the photo: Item 120182024166.

I started off with those TLF edgers, I didn't know there were different ones and I always wondered why those saddle guys had round edges on somethings so I started asking. Now all my old TLF are round bottom edgers - a round swiss file and a little sharpening with various grits of paper turned them into useful tools.

I'd think you could make one after looking at a few pix.

Bottom line on burnishing is there's no shortcut. Elbow grease, even a power wheel takes time.

You can make one from a piece of hardwood dowel about 5 or 6 inches long and 1.5, 2.0 or 2.5 inches in diameter. Center punch it and install a mandrel and then turn some grooves of various sizes up and down the shaft and run it in a drill press. Use a little moisture and paraffin or beeswax.

Glue, sew, dye, edge, sand lightly, moisten and burnish. Apply your finish coat and you're done. I wouldn't dunk it in finish whatever you use. I usually apply finish with a piece of shearling and then pitch it at the end of the day.

Like Art said there's a bunch of formulas, you have to find the one you like. You're trying to go fast and if you find fast and less elbow grease I'd like to know. Give us some feedback. I'm interested in what you're doing. I watch this thread.

Good luck,

Bill

[JPH]

Bill, Art:

Oik I gave the hardwood a try, had some ash I had laying about and cut some different radii U grooves in it...sanded it down smooth using emory paper on a round file and waxed the beegeezus out of it using beeswax...then I burnished the wood/wax with a piece of mild steel..heating it all up until it was smoking a bit and the wood got a bit singed...

And guess what???..it works...takes about a minute to burnish the edges and I am not using any water at all..just daub on some beeswax and run the edge around the grooved mandrel... leaves a very smooth egde...I am very pleased...

On the water..I am very paranoid about using any water of these as high carbon steel is instant rust..just add water... So the less moitsure the better if you ask me..

THANK YOU....this is one thing down and a whole lot more to go...THe next step I think will be finishes...

THANK YOU once again..

In case you are curious about my metalwork...here's a C/U of a three core

serpent pattern composite blade a'la 4th Cent AD...

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc78/Jh...s1/MVC-001F.jpg

Now I get to make a sheath for this one later this week...

JPH

[Art]

Hi Jim,

So you want to get industrial.... Try a wood wheel (like cocobolo, paduk, or some other hard wood) or a leather wheel about 2" or 3" running at 1750rpm. I don't like the steel wheels because they rust except stainless like 316 it would work also. There's a ton of ways to skin this cat, but rubbing the edge with something way harder than the leather is the trick; the more you rub with water or wax, the nicer the edge.

Art

Art:

Ok I gave it a go and well it took darn near forever to get the edges smoothed/burnished by hand.. I make sheaths by the dozen and this is really adding up to the time...sooooooo..

I was thinking that if I was to turn a wheel, say out of 1018/A-36 ...about 8" in diameter, put a nice U shaped groove in it..somewhat shallow but strill a U and attach that to say a 1650 or so RPM motor...that should work shouldn't it to burnish??

I need to cut down on the time spent on these...and this might be a way to do that. spending 10 minutes on a sheath to burnish doesn't sound like a long time but when you have 30 or 40 to do...it adds up...

JPH

[Billsotx]

Is that minimalist art or what? ... lol! Nice lookin' blade Jim! Looks like Art's got you up and running. Show us some pix when you have time. talk later .......